Mysterious death of Hemiancistrus subviridis

[emanuel]

I begin by apologizing for my imperfect English, I hope I will be able to express myself clearly enough and that someone will be able to help me.
Two large Hemincistrus subviridis of 18 and 19 cm died, a few months apart, for no apparent reason, I just can't understand. Everything in my tank is fine, the values are perfect (No2 zero, No3 between zero and 10, PH 6.2/6.4), everyone is fine, no fish dies, not even the smallest cardinal tetra.
A few months ago one of my Hemiancistrus subviridis, perfectly healthy, had grown from 15 to 18 cm in 3 months, suddenly stopped eating and died within two weeks. I didn't find any explanation, it was really growing very fast and then suddenly it died.
I thought it was bad luck, so I started again with a new group of 3 Hemiancistrus subviridis. Here too in a month and a half I observed a rapid growth in all the specimens, everything was going well until 3 days ago, when the big male, which in the last few weeks had begun to show a rapid growth of the odontoids and had taken possession of a cave, he stopped eating altogether suddenly. This time, after a couple of days, I intervened: I thought of an intestinal blockage and yesterday I fished it out, put it in a tank with an aerator and gave 2 g of magnesium sulphate for every 10 liters of water ( the recommended dose for discus when they have intestinal blockage). This morning when I woke up, unfortunately I found him dead. Obviously I had no idea if it was really an intestinal blockage, but without my intervention he would have died anyway, so I wanted to try this route, but it didn't go well.
The problem is that I have no idea, really none, if anyone can help me I would be very grateful. The dynamics are always the same, the fish is fine, grows quickly, eats with great appetite, then overnight, without any warning or symptoms, stops eating altogether and then dies.
I want to underline that everything in the tank is really going in the right direction, this morning for example the female of L260 is full of eggs again and soon there will be a spawning (the second in a few weeks).
I really want to buy a new Hemiancsitrus subviridis male, but now I'm scared, I really want to understand what the problem is, why do they die like this for no reason?
The first specimen had been in the shop for 6 months before buying it, the second (the one that died yesterday) even for a year and a half (the shopkeeper sold me his reproductive group that he was trying to form). In the shop they were in full health and very well maintained.
I feed fish primarily sweet potatoes, zucchini, green beans and blanched peas, then to a lesser extent high-quality granules and pleco pellets, for both carnivores and vegetarians. You can see my pleco list on my profile, or check out this link where I show my tank https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=51445
This is a photo of the fish that died this morning
I wrote for a long time, but I wanted to give as much information as possible

[sturiosoma]

Do you feed all of your fish the same foods or are there foods that you only feed to the subvirius.

Jeanne

[emanuel]

Do you feed all of your fish the same foods or are there foods that you only feed to the subvirius.

Jeanne

No distinction, all plecos eat all types of food that I put in the aquarium

[Hyhy]

Sorry to hear that you are having troubles(I also have some minor ones with my small Demantoides but that's for another thread -_-). Fish looks healthy to me, except for the obvious of course, which is kinda weird.

But as you said he stopped eating, have you tried to deworm them?

[emanuel]

Hyhy, No, but how would I know if the fish has worms? What product should I use in case to fight them? The strange thing is that after the first Hemiancistrus died, all the other fish were fine, no losses, then after more than three months another Hemiancistrus died again (in the tank with me for two and a half months) with the same symptoms

[Hyhy]

I used eSHa-ndx with success on other fish and it's harmless as far as I know so might be worth a shot. Normally they would get emanciated(don't see that here) and stringy poop but I suspect not eating could be a symptom aswell.

[emanuel]

Can I use that product directly in the tank or should I isolate the fish in another tank?
It's not always easy to observe poop, but everything looked normal

[Hyhy]

I would treat entire tank yes. Of course I am not very convinced this is the problem but it could atleast be a way of eliminating one potential source of what the problem is.

Hope some more experienced keepers chime in.

[emanuel]

Hyhy, So you recommend me to do a preventive treatment? It would be a relief for me too to eliminate the cause of the worms, but can I be sure I won't have any problems? The tub now has a good balance and I'm a little afraid that a medicine could damage it. And the eggs? Maybe I have an ongoing spawning by a Hypancsitrus.

[emanuel]

another question, will it be necessary to do a big water change after the eSHa-ndx treatment? Or just put activated charcoal?

[emanuel]

unfortunately today even a L128 suddenly stopped eating. up until last night he ate normally, pooped normally, I just observed carefully. Now I'm really desperate, I'm afraid of slowly losing all my plecos. It would be a disaster, both financially and emotionally. I ask for help.

[Hyhy]

I can't tell you how and if it affects fry but I didn't have any losses(or problems) using it, I just followed instructions don't think changing water after was even mentioned but I probably did regardless. Maybe there are even better alternatives and again it's just guesswork really.

Terrible to hear that the problems keep persisting, might be time to consider if there is something in the tank that might be harmful longterm.

(Sorry that I cannot be of much help)

[sturiosoma]

What were these fish fed at the shop as compared to what you are feeding?

Jeanne

[emanuel]

Hyhy, I ordered eSHa-ndx, I will do a treatment as soon as it arrives, in the absence of any solution, I can only experiment. But I'm not convinced that's the problem, because from what I've read, fish with worms don't lose their appetite, in fact they continue to eat. In my case we have a fish that stops eating, without any visible sign, even the color remains perfect, bright and shiny.

sturiosoma, i feed him exactly the same food he ate in the shop, i bought from him all the feed he gave to his plecos. The difference is that I give them vegetables, the shopkeeper didn't, but everyone gives vegetables to their plecos, I can't imagine that's the problem. Among other things, I always buy organic vegetables for my plecos

[emanuel]

More bad news. I found another dead H. subviridis this morning. L128 is still alive, but I have a feeling it won't last.
I put some photos, I also wanted to cut the belly, maybe so someone can help me.

[Griparn]

Very sad to read about the losses.

By judging from your posting of water values, foods and other species in the tank my guess is - it’s something about one of the food sources that the L-200 arent taking as good as the other plecos.

Especially wildcaught fish(not plecos) for me have died when introducing new food too fast and too much.

It’s just my two cents. I hope you will come to a conclusion soon.

Great looking tank btw.

[Hyhy]

Sad to hear, have you considered just removing them from the tank and see what happens just to eliminate the tank itself as a source? Might be a huge undertaking though and would be a pity to break down such an awesome scape.

[emanuel]

Griparn, Effectively only fish caught in the wild are dying, the Hypancistrus for example all come from farms. But I really don't know how to understand. Three months ago the first Hemiancistrus died, then I didn't have any other Hemiancistrus until about two months ago when I bought the new group. Now they're all dying with the same Hemiancistrus symptoms as they were three months ago, there has to be a connection (and food might be). I also have some experience with aquariums, but a mystery like this is the first time for me.

Hyhy , It is very difficult to catch fish due to the many rocks with caves, I would say impossible in the case of a healthy fish. But when they begin to show symptoms they are easier to fish, because they become static and stop being afraid of me, in fact I was able to fish the second Heminacistrus with symptoms of malaise, I put it in a separate aquarium with aerator and pump movement but died after about ten hours. While in the meantime in the aquarium, after a few days a L128 started showing the same symptoms and this morning I found L200 dead. So this time I'm saving myself the trouble of fishing for them.

[Hyhy]

I can understand that, was more into "tear tank down" thinking since else it wouldn't be doable I think.

Of course it's not likely it will help since tank seems healthy otherwise? Have you measured ph/kh etc so nothing funky going on there? Might be harder for wild caught fish to handle values out of their prefered range I guess.

A pleco breeder I follow on youtube lost quite a few plecos to sudden drops of ph but still others in the tanks seemed perfectly fine. Then again I don't see how that would make them stop eating and I think it would be more sudden. Well hate these situations, had something similiar with a corydoras group that just dropped off while other fish in tank were fine.

[emanuel]

Hyhy, The Kh is between 2 and 3 and the PH has been fixed at 5.9 (milwaukee phmeter) for the whole week, but it has never had sudden drops, it always fluctuates between 6 and 6.3 in the last few months. Today I buy some salts to increase PH and KH, to bring the PH back to just above 6. All the fish are fine and eating, they are in full health; it's bad to say, but I hope that the problem stops at the Hemiancistrus, as happened already three months ago. In that case only the only H. subviridis I had in the tank had died, without involving the rest of the plecos. Losing all Hypancistrus too would be a total disaster, I don't even want to think about it.

[Hyhy]

Sounds like you do what you can, sometimes this hobby truly sucks. Could also be some other thing that's wrong with parameters like GH etc but I am not very knowledgeable about stuff outside the most common things maybe someone else got any suggestion?

Weird thing is that superficially they look healthy(no loss of color, doesn't look emanciated, no wounds etc) to me, easier when there is something to go on that's why I am leaning towards some parameter being off and the wild caught ones being more sensitive to it compared to tankbred ones.

[sturiosoma]

With you feeding a lot of veggies do you clean them good and remove part of the outer skin, there could be insecticides or other chemicals on the veggies, and since that's something you're feeding that the shop did not it could be the cause, or just eliminate the veggies.

Jeanne

[emanuel]

sturiosoma, Yes, I always clean my vegetables well and buy them only organic. But it's strange, the whole world feeds its plecos vegetables and there are no problems, furthermore the first fish have been in the tank with me for 9 months (L168 and various Hypancistrus), they too eat large quantities of vegetables and until now No problem. If it were the vegetables with various pesticides and poisons, they too would have died right? Instead the thing for the moment seems to concern only the Hemiancistrus

Sounds like you do what you can, sometimes this hobby truly sucks.

I was thinking the same thing

Besides No2, No3, PH and temperature, GH and conductivity are also ok, as well as ammonia. In the tank there are two aerators and the movement is 8,500 l/h. I don't know what other parameters could be wrong. I use pure osmosis water that I rebuild with special salts.
The color of the fish is really splendid and bright, you realize that it is not well only from the static behavior and that it doesn't eat, but if a stranger passes in front of the aquarium, they would never notice that the fish has a problem. it's really that weird.

[emanuel]

Yesterday I received eSHa-ndx. Now the question is: do I or do I not do the treatment? From the photo I posted of the Hemiancistrus with its belly open, I don't seem to see traces of worms, but I'm not an expert, what do you think?

[sturiosoma]

sturiosoma, Yes, I always clean my vegetables well and buy them only organic. But it's strange, the whole world feeds its plecos vegetables and there are no problems, furthermore the first fish have been in the tank with me for 9 months (L168 and various Hypancistrus), they too eat large quantities of vegetables and until now No problem. If it were the vegetables with various pesticides and poisons, they too would have died right? Instead the thing for the moment seems to concern only the Hemiancistrus

Sounds like you do what you can, sometimes this hobby truly sucks.

I was thinking the same thing

Besides No2, No3, PH and temperature, GH and conductivity are also ok, as well as ammonia. In the tank there are two aerators and the movement is 8,500 l/h. I don't know what other parameters could be wrong. I use pure osmosis water that I rebuild with special salts.
The color of the fish is really splendid and bright, you realize that it is not well only from the static behavior and that it doesn't eat, but if a stranger passes in front of the aquarium, they would never notice that the fish has a problem. it's really that weird.

sturiosoma, Yes, I always clean my vegetables well and buy them only organic. But it's strange, the whole world feeds its plecos vegetables and there are no problems, furthermore the first fish have been in the tank with me for 9 months (L168 and various Hypancistrus), they too eat large quantities of vegetables and until now No problem. If it were the vegetables with various pesticides and poisons, they too would have died right? Instead the thing for the moment seems to concern only the Hemiancistrus

Sounds like you do what you can, sometimes this hobby truly sucks.

I was thinking the same thing

Besides No2, No3, PH and temperature, GH and conductivity are also ok, as well as ammonia. In the tank there are two aerators and the movement is 8,500 l/h. I don't know what other parameters could be wrong. I use pure osmosis water that I rebuild with special salts.
The color of the fish is really splendid and bright, you realize that it is not well only from the static behavior and that it doesn't eat, but if a stranger passes in front of the aquarium, they would never notice that the fish has a problem. it's really that weird.

Is there any reason why you choose to use 100% r/o water.

Jeanne

[emanuel]

sturiosoma, simply because I have very alkaline water, from the tap the PH comes out at 8.5 and the KH is 9.

[emanuel]

Bad news, L128 just died, of course I expected it, he had been sick for several days with the usual symptoms. Again, no marks on the body.
Yesterday I made a video of my Hypancistrus L236, at the moment they all seem to be in excellent health. I still have two Hemiancistrus left, they are also well at the moment, but of course now I am afraid that they may get sick and die too.

[bekateen]

Hi emanuel,

This is a very sad and frustrating story for you. I'm sorry.

Please take my ideas with reservations, as I'm not at all sure of what I say here: The fact that your fish are dying off over time of similar symptoms says to me this is not a pathogenic infection but rather a tank condition problem or a social interaction. In my own experiences, when there is a pathogenic disease such as parasites, fungi or bacteria, the fish die quickly in a short period of time, not one fish at a time over a long span of time.

I've not kept these species so I can't give specific recommendations, but I would look at foods, aeration, pH spikes, consistency of water changes, and maybe stressful interactions.

Good luck,
Eric

[Brian2014]

As you have tried other treatment and you are sure its not water quality! If the plecs are still dying you could try a combo of a antibiotic like Seachems Kanaplex (kanamycin) which is the best for plecos as it is absorbed through the skin! if you can not find that you could try OCEAN FREE 3RD GENERATION YELLOW POWDER! Combine one of those anitibiotics with either api general cure or fluke solve! I had a very similar outbreak a few years back where the plecs would look perfectly fine no sucken bellies no damage to fins nice color etc they would just act weird not eating coming out in the open sitting on the glass. That would go on for a few days to a week before their death yet other fish in the tank would be fine! I am 99% sure it was some form of interal bacterial infection! I hope you can get on top of what ever it is and you do not lose any more plecs

[emanuel]

Brian2014, What you say is very interesting, did you do the treatment directly in the tank or did you catch the diseased fish and treat it in a separate tank? Could you give me some more information on how to act with the drug? Thanks a lot in advance!