Sick Syno help pls

[jodilynn]

S Eupterus
10 years old.
Went out of town for a week, came back to this.
Massive loss of pigmentation, no fuzz or obvious fungus, seems listless and having trouble maintaining balance.
Rest of fish are fine.
Any ideas as to what this may be????

[bekateen]

@birger, any ideas?

[jodilynn]

Guys please he isn't doing well I need help and advice as to what to do

[FatCatDoorMat]

S Eupterus
10 years old.
Went out of town for a week, came back to this.
Massive loss of pigmentation, no fuzz or obvious fungus, seems listless and having trouble maintaining balance.
Rest of fish are fine.
Any ideas as to what this may be????

Any tankmates that can beat this synodontis to a pulp?

Whatever may be the case, keep up with very frequent partial water changes until someone experienced can diagnose what is actually wrong?

[jodilynn]

No Leo is the boss of the tank. Even my 12 inch Clown syno doesn't mess with him.
Did a 50% water change (well overdue, I admit), did not go crazy with the gravel cleaning, did clean out one of the HOB filters but only rinsed some of the media (not all of it), other HOB untouched. Didn't want to throw the biological filtration completely out of whack.
Did add packs of carbon, ammonia remover and phosphate remover to the HOB.
I am setting up a 10 gallon hospital tank here shortly. I don't want to move or medicate him (I don't even know what the hell to use, the old standby Paraguard?!?!?) but I want it ready if he further declines.
Plan on 25% w/c daily for the next week.

[jodilynn]

It is my nitrates. They are coming in at at least 80ppm (I am scared to think the color is closer to 160ppm)

Everything else is fine.
Temp 79
pH 7.4
Ammonia 0-0.25 (you know the damn API Master Kit always shows ammonia)
0 Nitrites
But clearly they were severely overfed in my absence...

I am adding nitrate removal pads to the HOB filter to help

[sturiosoma]

Hello can you increase aeration and continue with water changes

Jeanne

[bekateen]

If your nitrates are 80 after a water change, I think you need to do a bigger water change (and maybe consider a good gravel vacuuming). If you want to be safe, limit yourself to a 50% WC, but do it several days in a row, or even twice a day for a few days. Alternatively, if you think the fish can handle it, do a 90% water change. If possible, remove the fish first and stir the gravel to release any mulm or toxic gases that might be trapped under the substrate or under decorations. Then siphon out 90% of the water and refill the tank. Mix new tank water into the bucket or tank holding the fish and let the fish be exposed to it before returning fish to tank.

That's what I would do, and I know it's a bit extreme.

Good luck,
Eric

[sturiosoma]

In response to Eric, with a 90% water change you have to be careful of a ph swing, so test ph of tank and ph of water used to change to avoid any problems

Jeanne

[Viktor Jarikov]

The API liquid nitrate test is a relative measure at best, not absolute because of much interference with completing anions, e.g. chloride. So 100 ppm by that test could be close to it but could also easily be 2x, 3x or even 5x higher. I am not sure if it can be lower, Darryl could tell us. I presume it cannot be lower.

But even a 1000 ppm nitrate is not toxic short term. So i'd not hurry with blaming the nitrates.

As for the ammonia test, I'd suggest to use as a reference a vial with known ammonia free water with both test chemicals added to it. It's very hard to compare to the paper color chart. IME I can clearly see 0 ppm ammonia and 0.25 ppm ammonia that way and I strive for 0 ppm and almost always have that. Although again 0.25 ppm ammonia is unlikely to be harmful unless your pH is like 8.5 or 9.

Nitrite however would be a problem at any non-zero concentration.

If the sickness coincided with your absence, then this seems to be the smoking gun. Something's changed and you gotta figure out what. Perhaps the overfeeding as you mentioned.

The marks on the fish seem abrasions, perhaps self inflicted.

What do you mean by the loss of balance: erratic swimming (brain, nerve damage) or bladder/bloat causing wrong buoyancy?

I have a more or less complete questionnaire for troubleshooting health and appetite problems but it is mostly for newbies. Yet it might benefit someone else too.

I'd expect though that once you get your water back into the pristine and stable range, the fish should rebound.

[jodilynn]

Hello can you increase aeration and continue with water changes

Jeanne

I have two power heads on my UG, one is putting out air very nicely, the other not so much for some reason. Plenty of current.
There are two HOB filters that also provide water movement.

[jodilynn]

If your nitrates are 80 after a water change, I think you need to do a bigger water change (and maybe consider a good gravel vacuuming). If you want to be safe, limit yourself to a 50% WC, but do it several days in a row, or even twice a day for a few days. Alternatively, if you think the fish can handle it, do a 90% water change. If possible, remove the fish first and stir the gravel to release any mulm or toxic gases that might be trapped under the substrate or under decorations. Then siphon out 90% of the water and refill the tank. Mix new tank water into the bucket or tank holding the fish and let the fish be exposed to it before returning fish to tank.

That's what I would do, and I know it's a bit extreme.

Good luck,
Eric

Hey Eric, I did about a 50% yesterday, good gravel cleaning, cleaned out the one HOB, more gravel cleaning today and about a 70% w/c.
Nitrates have not budged

[jodilynn]

The API liquid nitrate test is a relative measure at best, not absolute because of much interference with completing anions, e.g. chloride. So 100 ppm by that test could be close to it but could also easily be 2x, 3x or even 5x higher. I am not sure if it can be lower, Darryl could tell us. I presume it cannot be lower.

But even a 1000 ppm nitrate is not toxic short term. So i'd not hurry with blaming the nitrates.

As for the ammonia test, I'd suggest to use as a reference a vial with known ammonia free water with both test chemicals added to it. It's very hard to compare to the paper color chart. IME I can clearly see 0 ppm ammonia and 0.25 ppm ammonia that way and I strive for 0 ppm and almost always have that. Although again 0.25 ppm ammonia is unlikely to be harmful unless your pH is like 8.5 or 9.

Nitrite however would be a problem at any non-zero concentration.

If the sickness coincided with your absence, then this seems to be the smoking gun. Something's changed and you gotta figure out what. Perhaps the overfeeding as you mentioned.

The marks on the fish seem abrasions, perhaps self inflicted.

What do you mean by the loss of balance: erratic swimming (brain, nerve damage) or bladder/bloat causing wrong buoyancy?

I have a more or less complete questionnaire for troubleshooting health and appetite problems but it is mostly for newbies. Yet it might benefit someone else too.

I'd expect though that once you get your water back into the pristine and stable range, the fish should rebound.

Hi Victor,
I have a hard time differentiating between the colors to be honest. I don't think I have any ammonia issues, but I can never *quite* tell so to error on the side of caution I say the test could be indicating ammonia.
As I mentioned it is just the Nitrate test showing completely out of whack.
I did more gravel cleaning and probably a 70% w/c today, nitrates did not budge.
Which is disheartening.
It is hard to explain what the injuries/illness looks like, he is a typical syno and doesn't like his picture taken , it looks like the loss of color is from the inside out, underneath his "skin", not on the surface like abrasions or injuries. The is no fuzz or excess slime on any of the areas.
As far as listless behavior, he just seems...wonky. If he tries to rest, say, on the gravel, he just kind of starts to float off, and sometimes it seems he jams himself in the corner by the UG uptake just to be able to rest.
I will say today he did seem a tad bit more ornery. Bullit, my hybrid syno, who is about the same age and size, took this opportunity to take over Leo's cave (there are literally 10 caves in the tank and they all want to be in like, two of them). Leo did go in after this last water change and pushed him out of there, so I am hoping he is feeling a bit better.
Obviously I am not going to be feeding them for a while.

[jodilynn]

In response to Eric, with a 90% water change you have to be careful of a ph swing, so test ph of tank and ph of water used to change to avoid any problems

Jeanne

Thanks for mentioning that Jeanne, our water is in the 8.0 range out of our well, the tank seems to be holding at a steady 7.6

[bekateen]

Hey Eric, I did about a 50% yesterday, good gravel cleaning, cleaned out the one HOB, more gravel cleaning today and about a 70% w/c.
Nitrates have not budged

Hi Jodilynn,

If nitrates haven't budged after such a big water change, then there are a limited number of explanations:

1. the nitrate test kit is giving you meaningless numbers. (Or if it's color-based, maybe you're not reading the colors right).
2. your nitrates are "through the roof" high, such that even a 70% WC doesn't bring the value down to a range which changes the test kit reading. (Honestly, I doubt it's this).
3. There is some hidden decaying organic matter in your tank, which is the source of these nitrates even after WC. Or
4. there's high nitrates in your tapwater (which can easily be tested by checking your tapwater).

Maybe there's other explanations, but if your tapwater is clean and you're doing a 70% or more WC, there's no reason for nitrates to stay elevated unless either your test kit is showing bad results or there's an undiagnosed source of nitrates.

Good luck
Eric

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If nitrates haven't budged after such a big water change, then there are a limited number of explanations:

1. the nitrate test kit is giving you meaningless numbers. (Or if it's color-based, maybe you're not reading the colors right).
2. your nitrates are "through the roof" high, such that even a 70% WC doesn't bring the value down to a range which changes the test kit reading. (Honestly, I doubt it's this).
3. There is some hidden decaying organic matter in your tank, which is the source of these nitrates even after WC. Or
4. there's high nitrates in your tapwater (which can easily be tested by checking your tapwater).

Maybe there's other explanations, but if your tapwater is clean and you're doing a 70% or more WC, there's no reason for nitrates to stay elevated unless either your test kit is showing bad results or there's an undiagnosed source of nitrates.

The API liquid nitrate test is a relative measure at best, not absolute because of much interference with completing anions, e.g. chloride. So 100 ppm by that test could be close to it but could also easily be 2x, 3x or even 5x higher. I am not sure if it can be lower, Darryl could tell us. I presume it cannot be lower.e a problem at any non-zero concentration.

Unfortunately I don't know, but any of Eric's or Viktor's suggestions are plausible, unfortunately we are in Donald Rumsfeld territory with plenty of "unknown unknowns".

cheers Darrel

[Viktor Jarikov]

The way you describe how the fish is having balance issues can implicate the swimming bladder.

If memory serves, in goldfish it has been shown that high nitrates lead to bladder problems and the floating disease.

Just something that adds up a little but I could be way off too.

[sturiosoma]

Have you checked the nitrates of your tap

Jeanne

[naturalart]

You mentioned an Undergravel filter. That may be causing your nitrate problem. I would lift that thing and vac under it. Those filters can harbor poop a 'mile high'... well maybe not that high. But you could have a bunch of uneaten food or even a dead fish under there. Worth the investigation. Otherwise I would look at the source of your water. My 2¢

[jodilynn]

Hi all, my apologies for being MIA, all is well with my Leo.
After a good cleaning and consistent water changes, a one week round of Melafix (I know that stuff is controversial) and lots of prayers, my beautiful fish is back to normal.
Tank is fine, been keeping up on the water changes (big ones), and everyone seems to be doing well.
Thank you all for your help and suggestions.