sold as P. gracilis but I cannot be! Who am I?

[Viktor Jarikov]

I am about 10" TL. My tummy is white. I am very fast and skittish (when I do come out) esp. in relatively bright light so they could not take a nice pic of all of me.

[Viktor Jarikov]

2 more shots

[Suckermouth]

My guess is

Rhamdia quelen

.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wow!! You are good, Milton!!! I think you are right - mine looks exactly like those photos. I was wrecking my brain looking at all the Pims and not finding anything close.

You think this fish has a lot of common names (Americas: Bagre, Andean: Barbilla, Andean: Barbudo, Bagre de arroyo (Canyon Catfish), Brazil: Jandia, Brazil: Nhandia, Silver Catfish) but then I have NEVER seen so many synonyms !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Caecorhamdella urichi, Caecorhamdia urichi, Pimelenotus vilsoni, Pimelodus baronismuelleri, P. cinerascens, P. cuyabae, P. deppei, P. godmanni, P. hilarii, P. micropterus, P. musculus, P. namdia, P. parahybae, P. pentlandii, P. queleni cuprea, P. sebae, P. sellonis, P. stegelichii, P. wagneri, P. wuchereri, Rhamdia barbata, R. baronismuelleri, R. branneri, R. bransfordii, R. cinerascens, R. depressa, R. godmani, R. guatemalensis depressa, R. heteracantha, R. hilarii, R. lehmanni, R. microps, R. mounseyi, R. nasuta, R. pentlandi, R. pubescens, R. riojae, R. sayaensis, R. sebae, R. vilsoni, R. wagneri, Silurus rivularis

That's a truckload of synonyms!!!!!!!!! Why???

[MatsP]

It has so many synonyms because it is:
1. Widespread.
2. Common.
3. Variable.

It also falls into a category of fish that is hard to place exactly, so it's been shuffled around a bit - it's not got any DISTINCTIVE features that puts it into a particular group.

I suspect a bit of splitting and lumping have gone on in the list as well.

Splitting is where a scientist says "This fish is really different from the ones describe before" based on some more or less detailed study. A scientist that often "splits" populations into separate species are called a "splitter" by others who don't necessarily agree.

Lumping is where the a scientist says "This fish isn't different enough to be in a species different from this other described form, I'll make the newer form a synonym of the other species. Someone who tends to lump species populations gets called a "lumper".

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

If you were looking in Pimelodidae, than you wouldn't have found it; Pimelodella and Rhamdia are in the closely-related family

Heptapteridae

. ;)

[Viktor Jarikov]

Yes I was. Thank you again, Milton! Mats, thanks as always!

MT: If you were looking in Pimelodidae, than you wouldn't have found it; Pimelodella and Rhamdia are in the closely-related family...
VJ: Do you mean Pimelodidae and Pimelodella are two different things? Did I erroneously always equate the two terms?

[MatsP]

Yup, it's very confusing that Pimelodella is not in the Pimelodidae genus - they shouldn't be allowed to put things that sound like they belong in one family into another family without renameing the genus! But I guess that would just make life harder for the scientists, and I don't think it's particularly easy right now...

--
Mats

[Suckermouth]

Pimelodella

is a genus, while

Pimelodidae

is a family. These are not the same. Species are grouped into genera (plural for genus) and genera are grouped into families (this hierarchy continues upwards). Furthermore, as Mats noted, there is the slight confusion that Pimelodella, despite starting with the same root word, is not a genus that is grouped within the Pimelodidae family. Pimelodidae does include the genus

Pimelodus

, however, it would also be incorrect to equate Pimelodus and Pimelodidae.

In any case, except for very rare instances, one cannot rename a genus as the default rule is that the earliest description name wins no matter what. There are hoops that can be jumped through to change a genus name, though.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Milton, now that's some serious, clear help. I recognize a fellow scientist. Appreciate it! Before, starting practicing the science, one must have a firm handle on the language and definitions. I did not

-- Viktor
Physical Chemistry post-grad student currently in a lay-offish self-imposed exile... @ the University of Life

[Viktor Jarikov]

After two years and some months, I got to see this fish again (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=36786). Would appreciate the ID confirmation. I don't have high hopes as the pics are horrible.

About a foot TL now.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I don't think I have ever encountered any CA catfish in my trade endeavors but Rhamdia quelen. This catfish is a fun, quirky, boisterous, and a smart weasel of a fish IME. I'd not trust it with any small fish that can fit in its mouth.

When it comes to interaction with keeper or capture avoidance, this catfish is as smart, fast, and agile as the walking catfish, but probably smarter because of the better vision. When catching all fish out of a given tank or pond, ours was always the last to be caught and usually at the expense of some serious effort.

Once I had to catch our specimen, at 12" at that time, in a 6'x6' section of our 4000 gal rubber liner pond. It was the last one to be caught, long after all others, and it had me exhausted, panting, and swearing... No exaggeration. Of course the black pond in a dark basement, liner folds, nooks and crannies weren't helping... I had to remove everything from the section, pumps, pipes, clay pots, etc. Still couldn't catch it for another good 15 minutes, until the fish got more exhausted than I...

[Ralfieboy]

I bought what was listed as Brachyramdia sp. when I spoke with the owner of the pet shop. He told me it was an undescribed species. Well in no time this guy exploded in size and IMO is also a Rhamdia Quelens….looks just like these photos…..he is now in my 180….caught him with placing food in a pleco cave…..

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds interesting. Misidentifications at LFS abound and are common. If you posted good photos, we could share more info. That's a smart way of catching it, because it gets incomparably harder once fish realize what's up and muster all their ability of evading being caught.

[Viktor Jarikov]

A couple more cases of this fish being kept. They seem so rarely kept.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... at.747132/

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... en.699783/

[aquaholic]

Wow!! You are good, Milton!!! I think you are right - mine looks exactly like those photos. I was wrecking my brain looking at all the Pims and not finding anything close.

You think this fish has a lot of common names (Americas: Bagre, Andean: Barbilla, Andean: Barbudo, Bagre de arroyo (Canyon Catfish), Brazil: Jandia, Brazil: Nhandia, Silver Catfish) but then I have NEVER seen so many synonyms !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Caecorhamdella urichi, Caecorhamdia urichi, Pimelenotus vilsoni, Pimelodus baronismuelleri, P. cinerascens, P. cuyabae, P. deppei, P. godmanni, P. hilarii, P. micropterus, P. musculus, P. namdia, P. parahybae, P. pentlandii, P. queleni cuprea, P. sebae, P. sellonis, P. stegelichii, P. wagneri, P. wuchereri, Rhamdia barbata, R. baronismuelleri, R. branneri, R. bransfordii, R. cinerascens, R. depressa, R. godmani, R. guatemalensis depressa, R. heteracantha, R. hilarii, R. lehmanni, R. microps, R. mounseyi, R. nasuta, R. pentlandi, R. pubescens, R. riojae, R. sayaensis, R. sebae, R. vilsoni, R. wagneri, Silurus rivularis

That's a truckload of synonyms!!!!!!!!! Why???

What is wrong with a fish species having lots of names?

[Bas Pels]

Easily - if you have Corydoras paleatus, I know mine are very similar. If you tell me you have R branneri, I need to find out this is a synomine of R quelen, fish I´ve kept. I could tell you how to keep them (most importantly, they do eat smaller fish)

Still, the species has a large area, and keeping R quelen from Mexico as if they are from Brasil would not be a good idea. So, from our point of view, perhaps these names would be helpfull.

[Viktor Jarikov]

What is wrong with a fish species having lots of names?

Nothing per se. When I see something unusual (as I perceive it, perhaps erroneously), I like learning what's and why's.

[Lycosid]

What is wrong with a fish species having lots of names?

Technically there is something "wrong" with having a lot of synonyms. A species should only ever have one scientific name, and in this case this species has been given a LOT of scientific names which have had to be reconciled. This isn't always avoidable, but it can be a real pain in the butt to fix.

[aquaholic]

Yes, fish are often mislabelled, mis identified, etc. That's life.