Using potassium permangenate to kill parasites

[pointpleco]

Hi, First post for the year.

I have had a lot of trouble with ancistrus dying off. Sometimes batches of 90 peppermints all gonewithin 2 days of consuming their egg sacks. Albino Longfin batches of 100 plus all dying. Sometimes it's in first week and sometimes they get to 4 and a bit weeks and start dropping off. They look skinny and boney and also swim around frantically and land on their back and i have thought it is hexamita. Tried worming many times with levamisole and praziquantel products. Also have used metronidazole tablets but none of them stopped it.

So i thought to use pertassium permangenate dips of the adult fish. I dipped for 7 mins with a extra air stone with a ratio of 1 gram to 10 litres. (possibly a strong dose). They were stressed with this dose but were fine after a few hours. I also bombed the tank with a strong dose and restarted it with seeded sponge filters and cleaned it very well. Since running it the albino bristlenose bred within 2 weeks. The fry have gotten to 4 and a half weeks old and only lost a couple which is normal. They are eating and also not really skinny. So i think the pertassium permangenate has helped. And because of this i think i never had worms as the wormers never helped. And as soon as i used PP the fish got better.

But since talking to someone else about this they said that using PP wouldn't kill hexamita as PP is mainly for exterior parasites and it sounds like my deaths are from flukes. She does this following treatment on her discus as they get flukes at around 4 weeks old sometimes.

I have been told to get PP and dose tanks with fish inside at a much lesser dose to the dip i did. And to do it at 0.2g per 50 litres for 4 hours. But that could also be a double strength and possibly to do it at half that. And to add extra air. After the 4 hours i then have to add hydrogen peroxide to reverse the affects of the PP (i'm not 100% on the dose of that though).

Are flukes common in bristlenose fry and have others heard of death rates that i'm getting. Because it's just not normal and driving me crazy. I also have lots of L-number species that i breed and whatever i have with bristlenose it doesn't affect the L-numbers. For example my L377 have 50 eggs and 45 live. Peppermint have 90 and all die.

Also is it safe to be using this PP dose while bristlenose fry are in the tank, or will it kill them.

Any info or help at all about this topic would be great.
Has anyone else lost bristlenose in the rates i have been.

Thanks Macrae

[Bas Pels]

I never heard of pertassium permangenate

Are you certain it was not potassium permangenate?

[bekateen]

Yes, I assume that. I've used it unsuccessfully, meaning all my sick plecos died anyway. I'd recommend Kanaplex or an aldehyde formulation like Proform C or Seachem Paraguard if you can get it.

Also, for internal parasites, try dog or goat dewormer, fenbendazole at 100 mg/10 gal tank water.

Good luck, Eric

[pointpleco]

Yes, I assume that. I've used it unsuccessfully, meaning all my sick plecos died anyway. I'd recommend Kanaplex or an aldehyde formulation like Proform C or Seachem Paraguard if you can get it.

Also, for internal parasites, try dog or goat dewormer, fenbendazole at 100 mg/10 gal tank water.

Good luck, Eric

Hi Eric,

Yes i'm sure the same one, i just spelled it wrong. It's the stuff that is purple crystals. With all the adults i treated in the strong solution they didn't die. Just concerns me about 4 week old fry. But being a dose 40 times weaker i'm hopeful fish will handle it. My adults don't show signs of sickness but it's just their fry that die.

I know all the seachem stuff, it's very hard to get here sometimes not allowed in the country. I once got a 500ml of Paraguard and it was $50.00 so to treat my nearly 2000L of water successfully it would cost me $100 of dollars of meds.

I will look into the fenbendazole and see if i can get it. So many meds aren't available here. Things like API general cure, metroplex and others are banned to come in as far as i know because of a ingredient in it.

I might just have to use the potassium permangenate and see what happens. It's only $12 for a tub that would treat my system many times. I will trial it for a tank that doesn't have expensive fish. But according to the info i got they do it that way for discus fry.

Thanks Macrae

[bekateen]

@Barbie thinks many fry deaths are due to subclinical (no visible signs of disease) infections in adults. She'd tell you to treat the adults to danger fry of next batch.

Good luck,
Eric

[Viktor Jarikov]

I have been using PP rather routinely over a decade to kill off external parasites, bacteria, and viruses. It is also used by some fish importers receiving fish collected from the wild. 3x baths of 15 min of dark purple solution in a 1 foot wide tank. The exact % can vary. You can google it and you'll find various recommendations. The key is to observe the fish and if they are way too stressed, dilute or quench the PP with hydrogen peroxide, as you have done, or take the fish out.

BTW one could work with the same hydrogen peroxide to accomplish more or less the same, it's just it is colorless and harder to work with that way.

The product of PP action is the brown, water-insoluble manganese dioxide, which too can make it hard to work with the PP as it darkens the water and makes the target purpleness harder to read.

PP is a very, very harsh treatment though. I've never tried it on fry, I don't believe they'd survive unless perhaps a lower dose is found by trial and error. PP is how I treat the fish I get from the wild (I don't think this video of mine would be of much help to you at all but I'll post it anyway):

[TwoTankAmin]

I have never been tempted to mess with PP. I do know Barbie solved a zebra fry die-off years back using Proform C. The problem was similar. Spawning adults OK but the fry all dying. If I recall they discovered the cause of the deaths in a University lab and it was oodinium aka velvet. Have a read here https://thefishdoctor.co.uk/velvet-disease-oodinium/

ProForm-C® is a broad spectrum treatment that is safe and effective for the control of diseases caused by Ichthyophthirius (ich), Costia, Trichodina, Chilodonella, Oodinium and fungal infections. It is a malachite green and formalin combination that is considerably less toxic to koi and goldfish than other similar products in the market.

Required treatment time is generally 3 days and bypassing the biofilter is not required. One quart treats a 3,200-gallon system three times and one gallon treats a 12,800-gallon system three times. For use with koi only—not for food fish.

from https://pentairaes.com/proform-c.html

As for anti-parasite type meds, one of my main ones is Flubendazole http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleTreatment.pdf. I do also have the Levamisole HCL, Metro, and PraziPro in my med kit.

[bekateen]

@TwoTankAmin,

Yes, that's Barbie's story. The Seachem Paraguard is supposedly (according to Seachem) an effective but safer alternative to Proform C because it uses a formaldehyde alternative (an ambiguous proprietary blend of non-formaldehyde aldehydes).

Cheers, Eric

[pointpleco]

@Barbie thinks many fry deaths are due to subclinical (no visible signs of disease) infections in adults. She'd tell you to treat the adults to danger fry of next batch.

Good luck,
Eric

Yes i'm sure by clearing it from the adults would help the fry in the long run. It seems to have done that for the Albino bristlenose that i first treated. I'm just worried it will come back to their tank. Do flukes hang around in the water column and also get introduced by nets and hoses etc.

I don't know of the Proform C either, is that a similar way of treating like PP. I can't seem to find it to buy.

Thanks again

[pointpleco]

I have been using PP rather routinely over a decade to kill off external parasites, bacteria, and viruses. It is also used by some fish importers receiving fish collected from the wild. 3x baths of 15 min of dark purple solution in a 1 foot wide tank. The exact % can vary. You can google it and you'll find various recommendations. The key is to observe the fish and if they are way too stressed, dilute or quench the PP with hydrogen peroxide, as you have done, or take the fish out.

BTW one could work with the same hydrogen peroxide to accomplish more or less the same, it's just it is colorless and harder to work with that way.

The product of PP action is the brown, water-insoluble manganese dioxide, which too can make it hard to work with the PP as it darkens the water and makes the target purpleness harder to read.

PP is a very, very harsh treatment though. I've never tried it on fry, I don't believe they'd survive unless perhaps a lower dose is found by trial and error. PP is how I treat the fish I get from the wild (I don't think this video of mine would be of much help to you at all but I'll post it anyway):

Hi Viktor, thanks for the response.

With the hydrogen peroxide is there a correct dose amount to make the PP stop working. When i did my 7 min baths at 1gm per 10 litres i just took the fish out after.

I'm not sure what you mean by the target purpleness, i do know it's very purple strong or pinkish when weaker. I was told to do it until it goes brown (but thats with the weaker dose over 4 hours).

What do you think about the 0.2gm dose into main tank and leave for 4 hrs then add hydrogen peroxide and then a 50% water change. Instead of dipping. As i have 20 tanks to treat and they are not sumped together. I just thought to treat individually with fish inside and that way also kill any parasites in the water column. (that is if the parasites i have are in the water also and not just on the host). Dipping all the fish separately is a massive job and also catching fry. Maybe tanks with fry i do a 0.1gm dose.

And thanks for sharing the video, it was a good watch. Nice tanks and fish you have.

Thanks Macrae

[pointpleco]

I have never been tempted to mess with PP. I do know Barbie solved a zebra fry die-off years back using Proform C. The problem was similar. Spawning adults OK but the fry all dying. If I recall they discovered the cause of the deaths in a University lab and it was oodinium aka velvet. Have a read here https://thefishdoctor.co.uk/velvet-disease-oodinium/

ProForm-C® is a broad spectrum treatment that is safe and effective for the control of diseases caused by Ichthyophthirius (ich), Costia, Trichodina, Chilodonella, Oodinium and fungal infections. It is a malachite green and formalin combination that is considerably less toxic to koi and goldfish than other similar products in the market.

Required treatment time is generally 3 days and bypassing the biofilter is not required. One quart treats a 3,200-gallon system three times and one gallon treats a 12,800-gallon system three times. For use with koi only—not for food fish.

from https://pentairaes.com/proform-c.html

As for anti-parasite type meds, one of my main ones is Flubendazole http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleTreatment.pdf. I do also have the Levamisole HCL, Metro, and PraziPro in my med kit.

Hi twotankadmin thanks for that info,

I have clicked the link to the proform c that you provided, it seems the company is in the USA and i'm in Australia so possibly a problem for me to get it. It also made it seem i have to prove i'm using it for fish.
Is it only for Koi like said or also ok for Plecos.

It's really hard being over here and trying to get some of these meds. And now reading all the comments it makes me wonder what it actually is. Velvet, flukes or hexamita.

Thanks Macrae

[pointpleco]

@TwoTankAmin,

Yes, that's Barbie's story. The Seachem Paraguard is supposedly (according to Seachem) an effective but safer alternative to Proform C because it uses a formaldehyde alternative (an ambiguous proprietary blend of non-formaldehyde aldehydes).

Cheers, Eric

Yes using paraguard would be so much easier i think. Being 5ml per 40litres for my 1900 litres in tanks i would need about 240ml every day. Unless i halved my levels of water during treatment. On the paraguard bottle it says treat daily aswell. How long do you think it takes to clear something like this using paraguard.

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions, i'm not so good at meds and fish illnesses yet.
But always learning.

[bekateen]

Yes using paraguard would be so much easier i think. Being 5ml per 40litres for my 1900 litres in tanks i would need about 240ml every day. Unless i halved my levels of water during treatment. On the paraguard bottle it says treat daily aswell. How long do you think it takes to clear something like this using paraguard.

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions, i'm not so good at meds and fish illnesses yet.
But always learning.

Yes, I don't consider myself a medications expert either. A bit of black magic, luck and how much money I can throw at the medication companies.

The idea of cutting water volume is a good one. As far as days, I would treat for 3 days, wait a day or two to see how the fish look, then retreat for 3 days if necessary. I think for some meds and diseases, they say wait 5 days then retreat; but I think that's for internal (worm) parasites.

I never like this part of the hobby.

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

It works for plecos as well. The info happened to be on that site was all. It is considered a pond med but it still works in tanks Barbie used it to cure zebras.

I will say that fish meds are easy to get in the states. I have a med box with anti-biotics, anti-parasitic meds, anti-fungal meds and a few other things including Kosher Salt. I actually have them expire unused and I replace them more often than I use them. I think columnaris is the illness I have dealt with most often and fungal issues would be next.

[Viktor Jarikov]

With the hydrogen peroxide is there a correct dose amount to make the PP stop working. When i did my 7 min baths at 1gm per 10 litres i just took the fish out after.
***There is not and cannot be because no one can predict how much PP is consumed and how much left after a treatment is deemed to be over. You keep adding hydrogen peroxide and stirring until the purple color disappears (it is usually rather obvious) and only brown (MnO2) remains. H2O2 also restores the all important oxygenation instantly, as PP oxidizes H2O2 into H2O and O2.

I'm not sure what you mean by the target purpleness, i do know it's very purple strong or pinkish when weaker.
***Once you applied the PP, you'd like to keep up the effective concentration of it throughout the 15 min bath time or what not. PP will be getting consumed, sometimes quicker, sometimes slower. Eyeballing the color (target purpleness) is usually all you can go by. PP is present as long as the solution still has purple color to it. When water is stirred by fish, bubblers, pumps, etc. the precipitated brown MnO2 is suspended in the water column making it hard to eyeball the current PP concentration. PP is exhausted by all organic matter in a tank - fish slime, BBs, organic waste, etc. Hence, it is easier to give fish baths where the amount of organic matter is easier to control than in a fully functional fish tank + filter and hence one can use PP more reliably.

I was told to do it until it goes brown (but thats with the weaker dose over 4 hours)... What do you think about the 0.2gm dose into main tank and leave for 4 hrs then add hydrogen peroxide and then a 50% water change. Instead of dipping. As i have 20 tanks to treat and they are not sumped together. I just thought to treat individually with fish inside and that way also kill any parasites in the water column. (that is if the parasites i have are in the water also and not just on the host). Dipping all the fish separately is a massive job and also catching fry. Maybe tanks with fry i do a 0.1gm dose.
***It's been a long time since I have done it like that - treat the whole tank + filter. It can be done. When I did it, I did it in the same fashion as a dip - high conc, short time. Then quench with H2O2. You will kill off all BBs. I used BBs from a bottle and a liquid solution of Ammolock and table salt to restore the cycle with fish still in the tank (Ammolock detoxifies ammonia, NaCl at 100:1 detoxifies nitrite NO2). I have never done it with lower dose but longer. I am dubious one can manage this as, as I stated above, PP is consumed quickly, which means you have to start with a higher dose, how much higher, no one knows, or keep adding PP during the long bath, how much and how often and how easy is it to make a mistake, IDK... Anyhow, I don't see a benefit. The goal is to kill every living thing in a tank but fish... but often some weaker fish don't make it either... or you can burn their gills too much and they will die later, after a delay of days or even weeks...

[pointpleco]

Yes using paraguard would be so much easier i think. Being 5ml per 40litres for my 1900 litres in tanks i would need about 240ml every day. Unless i halved my levels of water during treatment. On the paraguard bottle it says treat daily aswell. How long do you think it takes to clear something like this using paraguard.

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions, i'm not so good at meds and fish illnesses yet.
But always learning.

Yes, I don't consider myself a medications expert either. A bit of black magic, luck and how much money I can throw at the medication companies.

The idea of cutting water volume is a good one. As far as days, I would treat for 3 days, wait a day or two to see how the fish look, then retreat for 3 days if necessary. I think for some meds and diseases, they say wait 5 days then retreat; but I think that's for internal (worm) parasites.

I never like this part of the hobby.

Cheers, Eric

Yes haha black magic, not wrong about all the money to the medicine companies. It's not cheap at all.
So cutting my litres by half means 120ml per day not so bad. And only treating min 3 times max 6 isn't too bad really. Would have to try get some paraguard again. Hard to find here, i was lucky to get it the first time i think. And yes your right about the different dose time for worms.

Thanks Macrae

[pointpleco]

It works for plecos as well. The info happened to be on that site was all. It is considered a pond med but it still works in tanks Barbie used it to cure zebras.

I will say that fish meds are easy to get in the states. I have a med box with anti-biotics, anti-parasitic meds, anti-fungal meds and a few other things including Kosher Salt. I actually have them expire unused and I replace them more often than I use them. I think columnaris is the illness I have dealt with most often and fungal issues would be next.

Ok thanks for that info mate, i will research into getting some.

Macrae

[pointpleco]

With the hydrogen peroxide is there a correct dose amount to make the PP stop working. When i did my 7 min baths at 1gm per 10 litres i just took the fish out after.
***There is not and cannot be because no one can predict how much PP is consumed and how much left after a treatment is deemed to be over. You keep adding hydrogen peroxide and stirring until the purple color disappears (it is usually rather obvious) and only brown (MnO2) remains. H2O2 also restores the all important oxygenation instantly, as PP oxidizes H2O2 into H2O and O2.

I'm not sure what you mean by the target purpleness, i do know it's very purple strong or pinkish when weaker.
***Once you applied the PP, you'd like to keep up the effective concentration of it throughout the 15 min bath time or what not. PP will be getting consumed, sometimes quicker, sometimes slower. Eyeballing the color (target purpleness) is usually all you can go by. PP is present as long as the solution still has purple color to it. When water is stirred by fish, bubblers, pumps, etc. the precipitated brown MnO2 is suspended in the water column making it hard to eyeball the current PP concentration. PP is exhausted by all organic matter in a tank - fish slime, BBs, organic waste, etc. Hence, it is easier to give fish baths where the amount of organic matter is easier to control than in a fully functional fish tank + filter and hence one can use PP more reliably.

I was told to do it until it goes brown (but thats with the weaker dose over 4 hours)... What do you think about the 0.2gm dose into main tank and leave for 4 hrs then add hydrogen peroxide and then a 50% water change. Instead of dipping. As i have 20 tanks to treat and they are not sumped together. I just thought to treat individually with fish inside and that way also kill any parasites in the water column. (that is if the parasites i have are in the water also and not just on the host). Dipping all the fish separately is a massive job and also catching fry. Maybe tanks with fry i do a 0.1gm dose.
***It's been a long time since I have done it like that - treat the whole tank + filter. It can be done. When I did it, I did it in the same fashion as a dip - high conc, short time. Then quench with H2O2. You will kill off all BBs. I used BBs from a bottle and a liquid solution of Ammolock and table salt to restore the cycle with fish still in the tank (Ammolock detoxifies ammonia, NaCl at 100:1 detoxifies nitrite NO2). I have never done it with lower dose but longer. I am dubious one can manage this as, as I stated above, PP is consumed quickly, which means you have to start with a higher dose, how much higher, no one knows, or keep adding PP during the long bath, how much and how often and how easy is it to make a mistake, IDK... Anyhow, I don't see a benefit. The goal is to kill every living thing in a tank but fish... but often some weaker fish don't make it either... or you can burn their gills too much and they will die later, after a delay of days or even weeks...

Ah ok, yes i know the brown colour, after PP sits a while it turns that on it's own when i have soaked nets and hoses etc.

Ok so it does seem that the bath is quicker and easier. Another person i spoke with said that the PP won't affect my beneficial bacteria (i didn't really think that would be the case). If i did it with baths for the fish i would kill flukes or velvet i'm sure. But if i put them back to their original tank i'm pretty sure they would be infected again. Correct me if i'm wrong. I think i might have to also dose the tank without the fish in there. Then use ammolock or strong doses of prime. And maybe a form of quickstart to get the BB back in the tank. Or like Eric said earlier just treat tank with Paraguard before putting fish back but thats a few days of dosing i think. Plus i don't have other places to put the fish as i want to treat every tank to make sure i rid the whole room of any parasite.

I think i covered your last reply in my above paragraph. It just worries me doing this. I have $2000 worth of L134 thats 8 adults at aussie prices. I of coarse dont want to kill them. If you had to do it would you either dose tank, dip or try safer more expensive method and use Paraguard if that will help the problem.

Sorry again for so many messages and questions, just want to be careful about this.

Thanks again Macrae

[pointpleco]

Also would a one time bath of PP be enough or would i have to do it 3 times like the above video. In community tank i have a black ghost knife fish, i think that may not be good in PP but not sure.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Ok so it does seem that the bath is quicker and easier.
***If you believe the pathogen is in your system, that is not only on live hosts, then common sense would dictate the whole system treatment. We don't seem to have any clue what we are killing, so the approach is to broaden the treatment as much as possible and use a universal external killer - PP - and hence it would make sense to treat the whole system. But this is very risky, as stated, so I can only offer the thoughts on paper, the rest is on you.

Another person i spoke with said that the PP won't affect my beneficial bacteria.
***If you shut off the pumps and quench the PP before starting the water flow through your filter, then yes. Stating the above unconditionally is wrong. PP like any sanitizer doesn't discriminate between good and bad bacteria. If in contact, it wipes them all out (with adequate concentration and time). PP also has to burn off the fish's slime layer to get to the skin, because the layer protects the pathogens too. BB's are not protected by slime or other physical barriers.

If i did it with baths for the fish i would kill flukes or velvet i'm sure.
***If done right, everything external will be killed, which is why 3x treatment is usually done, as doing it in one go is also likely to wipe out the host fish too and also because the parasitic life cycles often involves various residences in an ecosystem and various degree of sensitivity to a sanitizer.

But if i put them back to their original tank i'm pretty sure they would be infected again.
***Again, we don't appear to know the diagnosis, so we are shooting for the worst case scenario, which dictates the answer to this question as affirmative. If your fish are that expensive, you might want to consider to get some pathology lab work done or do a lot more of your homework yourself. One can get a microscope and study the swabs, which is of limited but great value to a learning-inclined hobbyist.

I think i might have to also dose the tank without the fish in there.
***This would be the easiest part. No need to worry about killing your fish. But I fail to see a reason to treat the fish and tank separately if both are to be treated.

Or like Eric said earlier just treat tank with Paraguard before putting fish back but thats a few days of dosing i think. Plus i don't have other places to put the fish as i want to treat every tank to make sure i rid the whole room of any parasite.
***This is a gamble of yours. Treating with a milder and more selective med and hoping you nab the culprit and quite possibly succeeding or treating with an all sweeping agent and risk sickening or killing some of the fish or not utilizing enough PP for this fear and failing. Shooting in the dark is hard but more often than not is all we could do... if the breeding is that important to you. If not and the fish are fine, then it is uncalled for.

[pointpleco]

Thanks Viktor for the in depth replies, information and time you spent trying to help.
It's much appreciated, I will work out what i will do and keep you all up to date on my progress with it.

Macrae

[aquaholic]

My suggestion for anyone using PP as a treatment is to put a small sample of the origional treatment water in a clear vial or plastic bag before you start adding fish. It will go a brown colour as organic load reduces the PP strength and purple hue fades so you will need to add more PP as time goes by except it is extremely difficult and very subjective to know how much PP to keep adding. So keeping a small origional sample to aim for will save you a lot of guesswork and anxiety.

Second suggestion is to use a microscope. Even a cheap plastic ebay version or a USB electronic one that plugs into a laptop may be sufficient. Without a microscope you are just guessing what parasite you are trying to kill and whether you have succeeded.

A couple of months ago, I had a bad dactylogyrus fluke outbreak on Sutchi catfish (ID sharks). Confirmed with a microscope and a gill snipe. While I had the masses of live flukes on the slide, I added PP to the slide to see how effective and it was utterly useless. Even after 24 hours and triple the PP dose, they were still alive. A 3% salt solution killed them all after 7 minutes. So I used a 15 minute salt bath and repeated a week later.

Copper is also better than PP in my opinion. But use a microscope with whatever treatment you try.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Great advice.

I use salt too (coupled with the PP or not) but rather blindly, that is without the microscope. What aquaholic does is the right way.