100 gallon multipunctatus tank

[Boris]

Hi!
I have a 100 gallon tank 59"x19"x19" and I am looking into lucipinnis.
How many adults could (should) I comfortably keep in this tank?
What other Synodontis could I keep in this tank?

[bekateen]

Hi Boris,

I haven't kept

Synodontis lucipinnis

, but I have friends who do. It's a relatively small species, 3"-4" long TL, and its an easy-going species too. You could fit a lot of them in a 100 gal tank.

Good luck,
Eric

[Boris]

Thanks!
Yes I could possibly keep one of the larger species (multipunctatus?) but it's hard to find "beginner level" information about them.
Perhaps I should rephrase the question:
I have a 100 gallon tank with pH 8. What would you suggest for a species tank?

[bekateen]

Maybe

Synodontis polli

? The Cat-eLog indicates it likes the higher pH and reaches only about 100mm SL.

@Birger, any thoughts on this question?

Thanks, Eric

[Boris]

I am deciding between lucipinnis and multipunctatus but can't get a grip on if their requirements are the same or if it differs? It would be interesting to have a groupe of multipunctatus and a breeding group of a cichlid and see what happens?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Have you done your share of searches? For instance, this recent thread and other similar threads might be of help: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48799

It seems many Rift Lakes synos and probably almost all of the smaller ones could make a home in your tank.

[Boris]

Have you done your share of searches? For instance, this recent thread and other similar threads might be of help: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48799

It seems many Rift Lakes synos and probably almost all of the smaller ones could make a home in your tank.

Thank you Viktor!
Yes, I have searched but I am left with some basic questions.
How "low levels" of nitrate, under 50, 20? How much water movement is sufficient?
If I was getting cichlids there is no limit to the information, catfish not so much.

[Boris]

Perhaps this topic should have been posted in the "Tank talk" section?
Moderators, feel free to move it.

[bekateen]

Perhaps this topic should have been posted in the "Tank talk" section?
Moderators, feel free to move it.

Hi Boris,

While this post is about a tank, it is also really about the fish that will go in it and the needs and behaviorsof those fish. So I think it fits here better, if you're also okay with that.

Cheers, Eric

[Viktor Jarikov]

Yes, I have searched but I am left with some basic questions.
How "low levels" of nitrate, under 50, 20? How much water movement is sufficient?
If I was getting cichlids there is no limit to the information, catfish not so much.

Excellent. I'd say keep reading.

Nitrates are tricky. Again, Darrell has been my guru here on the nitrates and he says we can't measure them reliably at home as when a kit says they are 10 ppm, they easily can be 50-100 ppm because of the chloride and other ion interference with the measurement.

I believe you can measure the nitrates relatively if nothing changes in your tank water chemical composition significantly over time.

On average, nitrates as measured by a liquid API test kit are recommended to be kept at most at 20 ppm (again the absolute number can be much higher).

The water stirring and aeration are crucial and on the one side the more of it you have, the better, but these synos are not white water fish, nor does one want to stress them by such strong currents that they would be blown around the tank.

[Boris]

That is interesting about the tests. I don't think we can get API in Europe so I can't compare directly. I have very good tap water with only some pH buffer added. Currently I am using Salifert and I can tell the difference between 100 and 50 but below that it is mostly guessing which very pale shade of purple is closest. It does correlate quite well with test strips and they are easier to tell when you are closer to 50 than 25.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I have heard of Salifert and if their liquid kit is as good or better than API, then you should be all set.

Yes, it is hard to read the API nitrate reading versus the color chart too. There is no discernible difference between 40 and 80 ppm, haha... but below 40 ppm a difference can be seen. It can help if one uses their source water as a reference, in addition to the color chart.

Still, as stated, you can forget about an accurate absolute measurement. Darrell uses duckweed to help him measure nitrates, IIRC.

The test strips are notoriously crude and I believe from what I read (I never used them) that they are not to be trusted, certainly not in the finer water analyses you appear to be after.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have heard of Salifert and if their liquid kit is as good or better than API, then you should be all set.

Yes, it is hard to read the API nitrate reading versus the color chart too. There is no discernible difference between 40 and 80 ppm, haha... but below 40 ppm a difference can be seen. It can help if one uses their source water as a reference, in addition to the color chart.

Still, as stated, you can forget about an accurate absolute measurement. Darrell uses duckweed to help him measure nitrates, IIRC.

The test strips are notoriously crude and I believe from what I read (I never used them) that they are not to be trusted, certainly not in the finer water analyses you appear to be after.

If you have NO3 levels in the 40 - 80 ppm range you need to dilute the sample with RO water, until you are comfortably reading in the 10 - 20 ppm range.

You would do this in a water testing lab. as well, you want your samples to lie in the middle (of the linear section) of the standard curve.

My guess is that a lot of the problems people have with NO3 readings are to do with not diluting their samples, not shaking the reagents fully etc.

Using the leaf colour, of a floating (non CO2 limited), plant (I called this the"Duckweed Index" ) to estimate nitrogen levels doesn't sound as scientific as a test kit, but it can be both effective and accurate.



The leaf colour chart was originally designed for Rice farmers.

cheers Darrel

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thank you Darrell. Most helpful as usual. Precious knowledge served on a silver platter (almost haha...), just the way I like it. @dw1305

The API color chart offers no difference between 10 and 20 ppm either. So the discernible differences can be observed between 0, 5, 10-20, 40-80, and 160 ppm. I think they all may still lie in the linear range. The 40-80 porion is not the plateau yet.

In any case though, 40-80 ppm is too high to my liking, whatever the absolute numbers are. I aim to keep my nitrates at most at 20 ppm by this test. So 40 or 80, it's time to up the WC or reduce the bioload anyway.

Yes, shaking the two nitrate test bottles, especially #2 IIRC, is crucial. As the bottles sit, the reagents appear to precipitate out, so one needs to get quite violent with them for a prolonged time, like shaking and smashing, shaking and smashing them repeatedly in a countertop, before the test reliability might be regained... IME anyway. I believe if the bottles sat for a year, this violence better be carried out for an hour or two, scientifically speaking of course... for those of us who are not fortunate to own an ultrasonic bath... but I am lazy and only do it for 5-10 min.

[Boris]

This is the Salifert NO3-test. It has two ranges, low - looking from the side and medium, looking from the top.
It is more than 10 but is it 25 or 50?
I will try JBL next time.

[Boris]

As you can see I have changed the subject line from lucipinnis to multipunctatus. I have decided that a group of multi's is what I will keep and I have started breaking down my tank to this end. I now have to figure out a good furniture for both me and the fish and could use some advice.
I am not a fan of large rock piles, partly because they tend to look like brick work and partly because they reduce the volume of water in the tank but I may have to change my mind in this case. It won't be a biotope tank because I want to have some live plants but I would like it to look natural.
I am reading through older posts and found this one with a picture that looks like a starting point.
Is there a "picture album" on this site or elsewhere I can use for ideas and inspiration and do you have any other suggestions?

What things would make the aquarium a lucipinnis dream tank??

I think stones piled as in the picture below is Luci heaven...they just spend all day cruising in, out and over all the rocks and know they can safely dart in somewhere if they feel in danger which actually makes them more visible.
I usually leave a strip of sand(which I now use in most of my tanks) at the front 4-6 inches.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Your question appears to be about the second photo, where the color is close to 25 ppm on the photo and my PC screen. The difference between 25 and 50 is tiny but I think yours is closer to the 25. Again, if I understand it right, it can easily be much higher in reality.

I don't understand the first photo, which indicates close to 100 ppm in the sideview. If it is the same test vial with the same solution, than the color intensity is directly proportional to the light pathlength, or in this case, if say the inside width of the vial is 4x the height of the solution in the vial (as seen in the topview in the second photo), then 100 ppm / 4 = the same 25 ppm. If the difference is 2x, then 50 ppm.

In any case, this is not far from splitting hairs. I think the conclusion is that this particular test of your particular tank water shows around 25-50 ppm.

* * * * *

I'll leave your furniture and setup question to those who actually kept these species in groups in dedicated tanks and even bred them. I am not one of those.

[Boris]

Your question appears to be about the second photo, where the color is close to 25 ppm on the photo and my PC screen. The difference between 25 and 50 is tiny but I think yours is closer to the 25. Again, if I understand it right, it can easily be much higher in reality.

I don't understand the first photo, which indicates close to 100 ppm in the sideview. If it is the same test vial with the same solution, than the color intensity is directly proportional to the light pathlength,

My question was rhetorical as I was trying to illustrate the lack of precision in the Salifert test also. Anything between 10 and 50 is a guess. You are correct, when the sample is viewed from the top the numbers are correct, when viewed from the side you omit the last zero in the numbers, 100 reads as 10 etc.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I respectfully disagree. I can tell the difference between 10, 25, 50, and 100 on their color chart. (As I said before, I cannot tell the difference between 10 and 20 ppm, nor between 40 and 80 ppm on the API comparison color chart).

In your second photo you appear to want to say that the test shows 50. But I think it shows 25.

If the sideview test shows 10 (100 without 0), then I'd say your nitrates by this test are 10-25 ppm, which is, relatively, 2x better than my previous thought of 25-50 ppm.

If in doubt, you could at the same time "test" a known sample of NO3-free water, which must be clear as day and colorless, side by side with your fish tank water and note any difference.

[Boris]

Update:
Tank is set up for catfish.
Large canister filter, stream pump flowing across the surface, crushed coral and limestone rocks. pH is 8, Gh 8, Kh 6, temperature 77 F (25 C).
I have ordered 8 multies. The shop had a few about 2,5". No pictures but I could not see anything that suggested hybrid. When mine arrive I will count the pectoral fin rays before I accept the fish and then ask for your verdict.

[Bas Pels]

You keep Cardinals in a tank for Synodontiws multipunctatus?

Cardinals come from the Rio Negro, pH around 4. The can be kept at pH 7, but Tanganjica fish like a high pH 8.5 or 9. Far too high for cardinals. Or the other tetra´s shown

Further, the wood in the tank might not be ideal. Wood lowers the pH, unless it is old and inactive. It is rather hard to buy old wood, but you might have the wood voor quite a while. I certainly cannot see whether it is old or not.

In a Tanganjica tank, it is a good idea to buffer the pH, with chalck. this also hardens the water, but your fish will not mind. chalck can be gotten cheaply at a place for cickenfood, it´s the stuff chickens eat it for their eggs.

[Boris]

You keep Cardinals in a tank for Synodontiws multipunctatus?

Yes (neons)! I know that these tetras have the opposite requirements compared to tanganyikans but I am rather certain that they are not wild caught but farmed for generations in whatever water the fish farm had. They have lived in this water for over two years together with that piece of wood and I have measured pH and hardness regularly. My tap water is soft but pH is raised by the water plant to protect the pipes from corrosion. Adding crushed coral to the sand raised the hardness a couple of degrees.

Is chalk better than bicarbonate for buffering and what hardness should I aim for? The species page for multipunctatus says pH 7,8 - 8,2.