Tiger Shovel Nose Catfish problems

[venisoncreek]

My Tiger Shovel Nose Catfish was fed almost a month ago but his large stomach shows that no digestion has taken place (eats thawed raw shrimp). The fish is almost 30 years old. Can anyone help with trying to solve digestion issues.
Any help would be appreciated!


Admin note: This subject was double posted with slight variations. I integrated the differences and deleted the other (duplicate) post.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Welcome to the Planet! Wow... 30-year old TSN!!?? That's an unheard of accomplishment.

It's too little info.

It could be:

-- bloat
-- clog
-- fat
-- eggs
-- missing tank mate
-- an inedible object or substrate
-- vitamin B1 deficiency brought about by thimaniase present in high levels in crustaceans, feeding only or mostly crustaceans (to a non-crustacean specialist fish) will most definitely bring about B1 deficiency sooner or later
-- too low dissolved oxygen
-- less than perfect ammonia or nitrite
-- etc.

[venisoncreek]

Thank you for the Reply! I think you might have figured it out with the B1 Deficiency because for decades I have fed him goldfish or mice but in the last 2 years I have switched to shrimp. Where shrimp are a crustacean this may seem to be the problem? So what do you think would be the best way to up his B1 deficiencies?
Again much appreciate your response!

Thanks
Mark

[Viktor Jarikov]

If you wanted to go on with the shrimp diet, I'd recommend to either thoroughly presoak the feed in something like Vitachem or stuff high quality pellet in the shrimp, like Hikari massivore, or NLS, etc., if the TSN won't take the pellet by itself.

Better yet, I'd recommend to get the TSN onto a frozen fish cuisine. Not fillet, as these are too devoid of the necessary nutrients but whole fish with head, guts and all. I buy frozen whole bait fish from bait shops and on-line vendors for around $1 a pound. Marine or freshwater - doesn't matter at first approximation.

Until the TSN improves, even these fish would need to be soaked in Vitachem or "pelleted". Again, it'd be the best if the TSN took the pellets too.

Goldfish too are high in thiaminase by the way and are poor in nutrition. Mice would have been ok as an occasional treat. Both of these feeds would result in digestion issues sooner or later. So the picture is getting more or less consistent.

********

If the TSN is clogged or bloated now, it needs help. Long term or short term Epsom salt bath would be good until the feces come out and the tummy goes flat.

[venisoncreek]

Again, I want to thank you for all your help. Of all the people that replied you are the most helpful. I'm going to go with what you said. Hopefully we'll have good luck and I will let you know the results:)

With regards

[Viktor Jarikov]

I only hope we are on the right track. How big is the TSN? Post some photos some time, if you will.

[venisoncreek]

We gave the fish a 30 min Epsom Salt bath in a 25 Gallon aquarium (1 tsp per gallon of warm diluted epsom salt). The fish is about 20 inches long. Once he was back into the 120 Gallon, I had hoped that he was going to throw up his stomach contents, but after only one or two heaves, that only brought up minimal contents (His stomach has been large for about a month). How long do you suggest the Epsom bath should have been? Should it always be administered in a much smaller hospital tank? I ask this because getting him out of the aquarium caused damage to a main fin. The next problem is Vitechem doesnt seem to be available in my part of the country. Mail order seems to be the only way. The tablets I have are fairly ordinary, with 30% B1 pmg. Are the Hikari massivore tablets the only ones you would suggest?

[venisoncreek]

Do you have an email that we can send a current picture of the fish? I can't seem to attach the image through planet catfish

[taksan]

The fish is 30 years old and only 20 inches and in a 120 gallon tank ? .....
You got bigger problems then his belly....

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hey Taksan, yeah, I agree that 120 gal is a bit too tight for a 20" fish. But I am not too surprised at the size - we don't know where and how the fish made it to this owner. Perhaps it was already stunted badly or perhaps it has pretty bad genes as all the TSNs we get as culls from the food fish farms and those raised the cheapest way in SE Asia for the ornamental fish trade.

Venisoncreek, click full editor button, then you will see an attachments tab below the window, should be easy from there. Yes you can add Epsom salt to the tank for a long-term bath, usually it is done at roughly 1/4 or 1/5 of the concentration. Read up on the Epsom here: post #35 https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-2261932

post #5 https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-2138994

Read up on thiaminase: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ow.167891/

Any pellet that is marketed as a complete all-in-one nutrition would do, not the crap you get from the country and farm stores usually like Tractor supply or CountryMax, etc. but even cheap pellets sold to fish farmers, e.g., Ziegler Bros. pellets - I buy these by 220 lbs every 2-3 months; 44 lbs bag, ~$45 shipped to your door from PA. Hikari and NLS are the best and the priciest. With dry fish food, you always get what you pay for. No wiggle room here.

[venisoncreek]

Here is a picture of Archie

[taksan]

I'm out ....this kind of mistreatment makes me full of rage.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Have you had the fish for all the alleged 30 years of its life?

When did it break its snout so badly?

The stomach looks pretty funny too. It should not be so bumpy and should not be that close to the front but usually the bulge should extend to the base of the pelvic fins. Does the TSN have problems with buoyancy? I am asking because I am wondering if it is gravel. When they swallow much gravel, they can't swim or float freely because the gravel's so heavy, it pulls them right to the bottom.

If it is not gravel, what could it be?? It could be a growth, or tumor, etc. Or has its stomach always looked like that, more or less, depending on what and how much it ate?

[venisoncreek]

Hi Viktor
Yes, Archie was born in 1991 and when I got him in February of "92, he was the size of a cigarette. He was in a 25 gallon initially, but knowing that was too limited, he almost died within the first week. When I transferred him to the 120 gallon, the TSN that initially saved Archie's life from other predators, almost ended up eaten by Archie 8 months later.
The snout breaking incident was late 1992 or early 1993, and his top jaw was so into his mouth that it was sealed shut. I had to take him in my hand and with two fingers had to pull the top jaw part into now what you see as his broken nose face. That is the second time Archie narrowly averted death.
Archie has always been able to experse gravel, so i think you may be right on the growth or tumor scenario. He has always digested his food properly and has never had an abnormally bumpy stomach like that for any length of time. So I guess what we're face with now is something that can't be fixed with peas or epsom salts. Now he doesnt seem to want to eat anymore. Other then that, he still seems fairly happy and swims normally. Viktor, in your humble opinion, what would you suggest to keep this fish comfortable for what time he may have left? Is there something can be done for growths? If Archie takes a turn, where he seems stressed and uncomfortable, should I be thinking of ways to speed up a merciful fate? Again, I want to thank you for all your suggestions and help. You were the only one that showed Archie and me any real empathy.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I see. No problem. Thanks for the explanations. In my book, anyone who managed to keep a fish for 27 years has achieved an outstanding, one in a billion result. Even though your practices leave much to be desired, I have committed the same or worse by my poor pets. We all aim for the best but half the time or more it comes out wrong. One of our main goals is to learn from both things gone right and things gone wrong and share with peers.

Has the bumpy tummy been growing slowly or appeared overnight? If it is a tumor, there is probably nothing we can do. Let it be benign or not, it is very large and would cause problems even just due to its size. Given the age of the fish, it wouldn't be too surprising either.

You could read up how to and give it a shot of vitamin B1 with a syringe via a needle or via a force-feeding tube. I am dubious it'll make it eat again but who knows. Or get an opinion of a fish vet on what to do but any fish surgeries are usually quite expensive costing thousands of dollars and it is usually very hard to find a vet experienced in doing that to fish.

Watch for signs of strong distress - e.g., vigorous and often violent movements; color-shifts, often fading or paling in nature; and changes in normal social and other behavioral activities are all clues to fish distress. Then decide if euthanasia is warranted. These write-ups will help you tremendously:

https://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/t ... ia.148361/

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ia.243553/

[venisoncreek]

Dear Viktor

Again, thanks for your wise words. On August 26, was the last time I successfully fed Archie. By August 31st, I noticed this time that the food (Shrimp) wasnt digesting. It was within a week of that when I noticed his stomach had irregular shape. So, thats the way its been since.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I see. No problem. Thank you for the explanation. Ideally, all this should have been described in the first post so we could get to the most likely diagnosis faster. Because now I think I'd shift my focus back to bloat, not properly digested shrimp, clog, or gravel.

I am no expert in tumors and how fast they can grow but now it sounds unlikely to me that it is a tumor. Too fast it would seem. When you caught the fish and handled it, you could have noticed if this formation was hard or soft. If found soft, it would further make the tumor guess less likely.

An internal organ enlargement, like liver, or some sudden collection of a bodily fluid, like lymph, could on paper result in an appearance like that but again, this is getting to be a pretty wild shooting in the dark on my ignorant part.

It is fathomable that the fish has gotten an internal or rather intestinal parasitic infestation. Feeding live goldfish feeders would invariably result in parasite and other pathogen transfer to the predator sooner or later. A whole host of parasites and other pathogens. So this is another probable cause in my mind. I am not saying that the bulge is like a huge tapeworm inside the fish (although could it even be present theoretically in fish?? Not your case anyway as it wouldn't have grown in such a short time anyway but be a very steady and slow process over years) but rather an infestation of small parasites might have caused an inflammation of the gut and a subsequent blockage, hence the bulge. A catalyst or an aiding process in this could have been vitamin B1 shortage due to thiaminase.

The fish has not eaten for a month and it's not too bad yet. They can fast a lot longer... albeit it is old and thin... Anyhow, I must assume the absence of appetite has to do with that bumpy bulge. For a lack of anything better I'd go on with the Epsom salt in-tank treatment. Not only it is a powerful and safe laxative, it is also used to cleanse fish from all intestinal parasites, although it works best if administered through feed but it should work through bath too, just less efficiently and less successfully, if memory serves.

An alternative to the Epsom salt is a treatment by praziquantel, metrinodazole, and fenbendazole, together of separately, through feed or through bath. These are purported to kill all or almost all internal parasites, not only intestinal, and also kill many external parasites too. I use both ways, depending on the situation, that is if the Epsom salt fails.

HTH.

[Bas Pels]

I don't think it is a tumor either

Tumors might grow fast, but generally they keep on growing. They don't grow in a few days and stop.

It could be anything else, but a tumor is rather unlikely

[venisoncreek]

Your knowledge and helpfulness astounds me. You just may rule the world.
Ok, when it was first suggested for Epsom salt treatments, I only gave the previously mentioned hospital tank treatment where I put him for 30 mins but where that resulted with damage to his fin, the next two Epsom salt treatments were done within the 120 gallon tank. So that is only three treatments in all. Should I up the Epsom salt treatments and if so how often would you do it?

In answer to you question if I felt his stomach, within the chaos of the move, I didnt. If it is important I probably could get him in my hand to get a proper feel. After it being a month since he's had a proper meal, I broke down and fed him 1/2 of a shrimp. I've been trying to hide laxative and B1 within the shrimp but he manages to experse those but still retain the shrimp. This shrimp meal that he just had seems to have restored his energy and happiness. You mentioned praziquantel, metrinodazole, and fenbendazole. Where he doesnt seem to want to take medicine through feed, I'm curious about giving him a dose of these. (ie what is the dose for a 120 gallon tank, do I need prescription...should it be from a vet or pet shop? what is the frequency)

I guess right now, I am going to give him another Epsom salt treatment and i'll plan to feed the other half of shrimp tomorrow night.

Thank you again and good night

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hmm, the plot thickens then. If the TSN still feeds, the intestinal problem may not be it or, more likely, may not be as severe as it looks from the size of the bulge. In any case, it works in your favor.

I would presoak the feed in the laxative and vitamin B1 solution (or much rather Vitachem solution as it has a balance of all vitamins and minerals needed) for a good length of time, say half a day or, if in a fridge, 1-2 days, so it is soaked all throughout and then feed. I'd feed the TSN as much of this medicated feed as the fish would consume to increase the medicine dosage.

Meanwhile read up on the meds I mentioned. They are available through LFSs or from online vendors. No need for vets or Rx. All three meds are described here. We can focus on metronidazole and praziquantel for starters too. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ns.295289/

Read up on the diseases too, whatever you think this could be: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... de.168667/

[Lycosid]

I would presoak the feed in the laxative and vitamin B1 solution (or much rather Vitachem solution as it has a balance of all vitamins and minerals needed) for a good length of time, say half a day or, if in a fridge, 1-2 days, so it is soaked all throughout and then feed. I'd feed the TSN as much of this medicated feed as the fish would consume to increase the medicine dosage.

If you have some need to do something in less than half a day you might be able to find a syringe and inject the shrimp. At least in the States there are syringes for injecting marinade into meat at some kitchen goods stores. I think Victor's solution is better in general, though.

[Viktor Jarikov]

@venisoncreek How is it going?

[venisoncreek]

Dear Viktor

Sorry for the late response. Where I don't really own an internet machine, my time is rare around these for any time spent....but it is definitely doing. However, not in quite the same positive sight as my last post.

When I last spoke to you, I had reported that Archie was back eating shrimp. That high was short lived as I noticed around 4 hours later, he threw the shrimp back up. Four hours inside of him was at least something. When it came to feeding him medicated food, he wouldnt hold it in at all (not soaking but in pill/pellet form inside shrimp). So it's to the point now that he won't eat anymore. So with more time going by of starvation I then broke down to feeding him goldfish again, which he actually holds down and doesnt regurgitate. So that's been about a week now and I see his strength is starting to come back slightly. Also, around the time I started feeding him goldfish I noticed for the first time his stomach wasnt so big and protracted. There was still something in there, but it had definitely smoothed out.

I'm almost thinking he might have actually pooped. So I'm going to pick him up more goldfish tomorrow just like the first 25 years of his life. So I realize goldfish arent a healthy meal for Archie but they've kept him alive for over a quarter of a century and it is so good to see him finally eat again. Viktor, is there a live food that is easily accessible that would boost up his vitamin count where Archie won't eat anything but live food anymore. Our cat even caught a baby mole, which Archie usually would have loved but where it was dead he suddenly seems to want anything but live anymore.
Thank you and goodnight

[Viktor Jarikov]

No problem on my end. I am glad the TSN is still coping. At this point, I'd think that anything that keeps it going until it overcomes the digestion issue can be tried.

You can feed the feeders medicated food and also a high quality food - like Hikari or NLS pellets, flakes, etc. before offering the feeders to the TSN. For instance, for a couple of weeks.

I understand the goldfish are the cheapest but any live small freshwater tropical fish would do and be better for the TSN I think because it is tropical and because they are better fed when raised than feeder goldfish and rosy reds that are fed garbage.

Non-fish live feed would also be good - earthworms e.g., nightcrawlers, red wigglers, black worms, ghost shrimp, crickets, etc.

[venisoncreek]

It is definitely cool to see Archie back on a regular eating schedule. I never thought about upping the quality of food to the feeders. What I feed the feeders now is that nutrifin or tetrafin stuff from Hagen. Would you say the Hikari be a much better step up?

I've always wanted to feed other fish to Archie but where guppies are too small, and anything else of size is too expensive, I've always been stuck with Goldfish. Occasionally in the summer I find wild minnows for him but I wish I had a constant supply of a high quality live feeder.

To feed crickets or grasshoppers have always been detrimental to his gills, and unfortunately I can never get him to eat earthworms. I'm curious about ghost shrimp on how large they get and where there might be a supply?

[Viktor Jarikov]

It is definitely cool to see Archie back on a regular eating schedule. I never thought about upping the quality of food to the feeders.
****What goes into the feeders, goes into your TSN. Feeder fish are unbelievably cheap at 5-10 cent a fish, much less if in bulk, and rest assured no one would raise them and sell them if they didn't make money on them, this is no charity, so the future feeders are fed a matching unbelievable garbage and are raised in matching unbelievably cheap and filthy conditions. Hence, a lot of nutritional and pathogen-transfer problems with them.

****I read even shrimp and tilapia farmed in SE Asia for human consumption are often fed garbage literally, feces, carion, rotting veggie and fish/meat scraps from the food being processed for eateries or waste from fish processing plants, etc. What's to say of the feeder fish? What in the world would they be fed?

What I feed the feeders now is that nutrifin or tetrafin stuff from Hagen. Would you say the Hikari be a much better step up?
***IDK. You'd have to research or ask someone familiar with these other brands. I doubt it. As I stated earlier, with fish feeds, you get what you pay for. The general trend is most assuredly - the costlier, the better.

I've always wanted to feed other fish to Archie but where guppies are too small, and anything else of size is too expensive, I've always been stuck with Goldfish. Occasionally in the summer I find wild minnows for him but I wish I had a constant supply of a high quality live feeder.
***Wild is very dangerous. They are ridden with all sorts pathogens. It's a LOT of work in QT to cleanse them. But once you do and they breed for you, wild or from an LFS, you would have a constant supply. For instance many people breed convicts and other easy cichlids for this purpose.

To feed crickets or grasshoppers have always been detrimental to his gills, and unfortunately I can never get him to eat earthworms. I'm curious about ghost shrimp on how large they get and where there might be a supply?
***This is the first time I hear of gill damage by crickets. I assume it is physical damage from kicking their hind legs with those sharp thorns on them. The legs can be cut off beforehand. Black worms live in substrate and the fish can feed on them whenever it wants to. It may take an effort to get your fish to take new feed, using tongs, garlic sauce, mixing and soaking together new feed with old feed, and other tricks. LFS sell ghost shrimp. They are small and will never become a staple for a large fish nor should they - they are a crustacean and you probably will run into the thiaminase issues again... or anew. They are good for diversification, as a tiny portion of the overall diet.

[Bas Pels]

With regards to quarantining wild caught feeder fish, the same solution would be appropriate for feeder fish.

Whether a fish is ment te be eaten or to live a long live, it can bring along pathogens. If the fish has been in quarantine for, say, a month, chances of risks have been decreased to les than 5 %

[Lycosid]

But once you do and they breed for you, wild or from an LFS, you would have a constant supply. For instance many people breed convicts and other easy cichlids for this purpose.

Convicts breed so readily that some people just end up with too many and want to unload them. Recently the local aquarium club here posted juvenile convicts for free from someone who had just had too many adults start breeding.

I also have bred convicts, and it's very easy.