Combining L333 spawns

[MMurray]

All,

I bought a pair of trapping L333s from a local hobbyist about 3 months ago. I successfully brought the pair home in the cave they were trapping in and have the batch of fry that they produced in a 10G. This first batch of fry I decided to strip from the male when they were still eggs. I raised them in a tumbler due to the obvious stress and anticipation of a failed rearing from the male. This same pair has now spawned again and so far, I have let the male take care of the eggs. They are now free swimming in the cave with the male and my gut feeling says strip them again and move them in with the other 15-20 fry from the first batch. The breeding pair is in a 75G and I feel it will be very difficult to get food to the fry.

My questions is how successful have people been combining different spawns/fry ages of the same hypan species with each other? I can't see it being an issue because I will be able to target feed/maintain water a lot easier but I am still on the fence of how to proceed.

Thanks, Matt

[stuby]

Hi Matt,

Fry do very well if you leave them in the tank with the adults...… you don't need to target feed them! Only time I separate fry/eggs/wigglers from the adult tank is if he kicks them or there is a problem. But to answer your question.... there isn't a problem combining different size fry in the same tank.

HTH
Chuck

[MMurray]

Thanks Chuck,

I appreciate the advise ill keep you posted.

Matt

[MMurray]

All,

I should've asked this in my last post.

I am sure both options work well but is either one optimal?

Matt

[stuby]

I and many others believe that keeping the fry with the adults benefits them..... they seem to grow faster and just do better. The fry will eat any food they find and poop from the adults.... and I believe this actually helps the fry even though it is a little bit disgusting! lol The only time I had a problem is (what I found out anyways) when the adult plecs where running over the fry and killing them.... I am sure they weren't out to hurt them they where just in the way. This was with some L181's, and I removed the adults and had no deaths after I did. Before I remover the adults I would find 1 to 3 dead fry per day. They were in a lot smaller tank than you have.... and this is the only time I have seen this so it isn't likely to be a problem.

HTH
Chuck

[MMurray]

Chuck,

Ill roll with your advice and obvious experience. Again, very much appreciated.

Matt

[MMurray]

All,

The fry are now out of the males cave but for some unknown reason they are congregating at the surface near the corners. My first thought is they need more air or more heat. All parameters are typical optimal hypan parameters. Has anyone seen anything like this? I am going to drop in more air and turn up the heat a little, its currently around 80.5-81.5F.

Any advice is appreciated (I can't figure out how to upload pics)

Matt

[stuby]

All,

The fry are now out of the males cave but for some unknown reason they are congregating at the surface near the corners. My first thought is they need more air or more heat. All parameters are typical optimal hypan parameters. Has anyone seen anything like this? I am going to drop in more air and turn up the heat a little, its currently around 80.5-81.5F.

Any advice is appreciated (I can't figure out how to upload pics)

Matt

That is normal.... a lot of plecs when they first come out of the cave do this. The temp is fine where it is and messing with it may do more harm than good...... more oxygen in the water never hurts though!

Take care,
Chuck

[stuby]

Kinda like this..... picture is of the L75 fry. The L309 and L181 I hatched out did the same thing.

HTH,
Chuck

[stuby]

To post a picture all you have to do is drag your picture from wherever you have it on your computer and drop it in where you type a post..... you have to click on "Post Reply" or "Full Editor and Preview" to do this and not quick reply. If your picture is to big you may have to resize it..... if it is let me know and I can walk you through it.

Take care,
Chuck

[MMurray]

Update for the few concerned, curious, and my people,

It seems like some hobbyist have noticed this behavior while others are completely foreign to it. I've spoken with around a dozen reputable hypan breeders and have had almost a 50/50 split in opinions on the normality of this behavior. The good news; They're alive and eating. In my opinion that means they're comfortable and doing well. For the record, those that were concerned with this behavior mostly suggested increased air which was my initial response. (Chuck surely included in the 50/50 split)

Today, the fry are still mostly congregated around the upper 25% of the tank. Another thought - I don't get home from work until around 6:00 PM. At this time, all of the surrounding tank lights are on. It seems like the darkest part of the tank in question might be the upper quadrant due to the tank being on the lower level of my fish room. (Other tanks are higher and the bracing around the rim of the tank might provide some shade)

I am no longer concerned with this behavior as I have observed the same individuals feeding at the bottom of the tank with the adults.

Thank you all,

Matt

Please let me know if these pictures are not visible.

[stuby]

I am not sure why they do this..... and it isn't every time. I have seen many different plecs hang on the side from Ancistomus to Panaqolus. Sometimes it's when I hatch them out other times they come out of the cave and do this..... give them some time and they will stay at the bottom instead of hang on the sides. Regardless, well done and keep up the good work!

Take care,
Chuck

[Jobro]

My fry will do this in a breeder box, but they will not show themselfes at the top of a tank, if I leave them with their parents. They usually go and hide away. Only see them out at night.

[TwoTankAmin]

Newly free swimming are dumb, they have not yet learned the ways of the world. The inbred response to hide at the first sign of motion does not appear to have kicked in yet. This seems to take a few weeks. As a result for the first week and sometimes two i will see fry come out. The most interesting aspect is my experience has sown that the fry become curious when the flow in a tank dies. This happens during maint. as I take the filters etc offline to vac and water change.

Some fry will come out and move about trying to figure out what happened. By the time I finish and am refilling they start to disappear. By the time the tank is refilled, they are all back in hiding. Sometimes this behavior varies.

When I had 14 L173 fry growing out in a 10 gal tank there was one kid who would come out every wc and swim around the tank for some time. He/she did this for several months even when none of the others would show themselves any more.

Finally, I completely agree with Chuck's statements above. I am a big believer in making sure fry get some mature poop to eat. Mature means it contains needed gut microorganisms. I believe this is why those who breed zebras tend to agree that raising fry with the parents makes them grow faster than when they are segregated. I have actually siphoned poop from breeder thanks and put it into grow tanks for the babies.

My experience has been that multiple generations can grow fine together. I have pulled as many as 50+ fry from a zebra tank all at the same time. They were varied sizes. A dirty and/or slimey bottom, especially in bare bottom tanks, is more of a danger to tiny fry than other plecos, imo.

[MMurray]

Update/Question,

The fry that I've left in with the parents are doing fine (I think). While its hard to keep an eye on growth rates of fry in a 75G, its definitely easier to maintain high water quality with just a single pair of plecos. This same pair is now trapping again almost exactly 1 month after the last spawn. My question is, should I expect this spawn to be smaller due to the female having less time to condition? How often can hypancistrus spawn successfully over extended periods, specifically L333s? I would like to hear of anyones experiences with 10+ spawns a year from a single pair and if there has been any decrease in health or death of the male due to nearly monthly fasting periods during egg rearing.

Matt,

[stuby]

Plecs not eating when they have fry is a myth! After the 3rd straight spawn with a plec (and no break between spawns) I decided to check after lights out.... what I found is he will come out of the cave and eat. He will not go very far and if any fish gets close to his cave he is back in a flash but they do come out to eat. I've check a few of them and all will do this... Well fed female will continue to be able to breed about every 3 weeks.. and they can have the same amount of eggs each time. But It all depends on the age/size and how well she is feed from what I have seen. Now 10 plus spawns from a single pair I wouldn't recommend.... they need a break!

HTH
Chuck