HELP cant keep baby l134 alive

[Ron.H]

Hi first time posting as heading implies need some help please. have owned 5 leopard frog plecos for approx. 18 months and have been lucky enough to spawn them once a month since february this year. being a young inexperienced male he has kicked the eggs as soon as they hatch on about day 5. i have managed to retrieve these eggs and raise them until their yolk sacs have been absorbed but shortly after this they all die. i have tried feeding newly hatched brine shrimp,finely crushed spirulina flake, some fine granular fry food and a small amount of repashy spawn and grow/soilent green mix. i have tried this in the parents tank, in a home made net type breeder and even in a small duplicarus cory grow out tank with identical water parameters as the 134 breeders tank.all cory fry fine all 134s died. no luck rearing them any further. not sure if they are not eating and dying, or they are eating and dying but suspect not eating. any help greatly appreciated

[bekateen]

What's your temperature and other water parameters?

[Ron.H]

my tanks run at ph7.6 and approx. 300 ppm tds out of my tap. to induce spawning i lowered tds to 130ppm with ro, ph didnt alter much and temp of 29c. lost the first spawn at these parameters. since march have gradually altered water back to tap and lowered temp to 27c and have had 3 more spawns. obviously parents have been happy to continue spawning in these conditions. cheers ron.

[bekateen]

That doesn't sound bad except temp seems low. My P. compta spawned and hatched at 30C. You might try the warmer temp. If you get the fry, try adding food (spirulina flakes, shredded sweet potatoes, etc.) a few days before they finish their yolk sacs. Feed them at least 2x daily.

Cheers, Eric

[Ron.H]

thanks for response will try higher temps and adding food earlier. should i not feed bbs as well as your suggestions. fry did seem active at those temps, noticed in parents tank would move around glass openly but eventually seemed to exhaust themselves and go belly up.

[bekateen]

Unfortunately I can't speak directly to Peckoltia compta. So far, my adults have spawned only once last summer and the fry died shortly after hatching when the three filters in the tank clogged simultaneously, depriving my fry basket of oxygen. I also lost two spawns of L397 that day. But my other pleco spawns grow well when fed the mix I mentioned above, with almost zero mortality of fry.

The only other "early" foods I use are freeze dried black worms and poop of parents (literally).

Good luck, Eric

[Fundulopanchax76]

Hi ! Is it possible that you polute water in fry tank with too many food ? When food stays uneaten in the tank, it causes development of huge quantity of bacterias who kill the fry ! That is my experience with other species fish.

[Ron.H]

dont think uneaten food is the problem as i remove twice a day with a turkey baster, plus fry are normally dead within two days of absorbing yolk sac. thanks for input but i am leaning towards bekateens suggestion of temperature issues. have raised temp in parents tank to 30c. and will hopefully get another spawn shortly to see if in fact this is the problem. will come back with future developments. cheers ron.

[stuby]

I have bred and raised L134 fry in much cooler water than you are without problems. How often and how much water do you change in the tank..... some fry are more sensitive to changes in the water than others so if you are changing large amount of water very quickly this can kill fry off.... do you age your water before adding it to the tank and are you on city water or well water?

[Ron.H]

i normally change 30% of water weekly in parents 20 gallon tank, always use prime and temp match. when male is on eggs or i have eggs/fry in breeder box i change just enough to remove poop, about 10%, again always treated and temp matched. these fry are always fine up till free swimming and should be feeding then die within 2 days. i am on city water. just to add i am currently hatching and raising duplicarus and black cories and super red bristle nose with this water and methods. also raised a spawn of zebra plecos about a year ago but have not managed a successful spawn since.

[stuby]

Is that 10% daily or 10% a week you change when there is fry.... with fry it is best to do a 10% to 15% water change daily or at least every other day. I had a pleco that I had a similar problem with the fry. I rigged up a drip system with a bucket and a air line to refill tanks and didn't have a problem after that..... now I just make sure to refill all fry tank very slowly. It isn't all plecs (or fish) that are very sensitive to water changes...... just trying to figure out what might be the problem and that is one thing that it could be...... and like I said before I raised L134 (and a lot of other plecs) in a lot cooler water. I keep the fish room at 25c to 26c and I do not heat the tanks.... and I have very good fry survival rate on all of my plecs. I keep and am or have bred L129, L180, L134, L32, L333, L340, L211, L104, L404, L377, L147, L174, L004, common BN's, Peckoltia Zwerg, L260, L270, L400, and I am sure I am forgetting something. All of them do very well at the temp I keep them at.

[Fundulopanchax76]

I have a friend who owns wild, still maybe undescribed hypancistrus. He has the same problem - when fry achieve to the stage of free swimming they die.
I m wondering is it possible water hardness to has meaning in this case ?

[Ron.H]

hi stuby. when fry are in a breeder box in parents tank water changes are weekly as this tank only contains five breeders in 20 gallons and filtered with a matten filter. if fry kept elsewhere would change every 2/3 days but fry die before this is needed. this is so frustrating as i have not lost an egg or fry until they go freeswimming, and would assume an environmental or bacterial/parasite problem would kill them earlier when they would be weaker and more susceptible. all i have read when researching these suggest get them freeswimming and you are home and dry. my water is moderately hard but does not hinder my other breeding efforts. i think im clutching at straws with temp thing as cannot find a solution to this problem. cheers ron.

[stuby]

I have a friend who owns wild, still maybe undescribed hypancistrus. He has the same problem - when fry achieve to the stage of free swimming they die.
I m wondering is it possible water hardness to has meaning in this case ?

My water is about the same as his is as far as hardness..... Mine is PH-7.2 to 7.4, GH-7, KH-5, TDS~125. So I don't think that is the problem. I am thinking it has more to do with oxygen level (higher temp = lower oxygen levels), bacteria, nitrite cycle, or change in the water. If at all possible I leave the eggs in with the male as he is much better at taking care of the eggs/fry than we are....... try putting something under the open end of the cave so it lifts it slightly. A peace of tile or something thin like this works well. Hopefully this will help him keep the eggs in the cave. If it was me I would drop the temp over time to ~26c..... lower temps have more oxygen and are safe for your plecs. Check if there is a slime film on your fry saver and tank and clean it.... slime film = bacteria and bacteria film will kill fry. Check to see what your nitrogen cycle is like in the tank.... ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels. When doing water changes try the drip method and small daily or every other day is better than larger once a week water changes. I don't think it has to do with parasites or the cory fry should have also had problems.... but it is still possible.

HTH
Chuck

[Ron.H]

for 3 of these spawns temp was at 27c. with surface agitation via matten filter return at one end of tank and wavemaker at opposite end/corner. the pattern has been that the male tends to kick the eggs as soon as they hatch thinking his work is done lol. i have a small piece of slate under the front of all caves. main tank has been running about 2 years and will have film on surfaces, but would be difficult to clean completely due to rocks, wood, caves etc. without complete tear down. fry saver is cleaned before use and is usually removed after 7/9 days when fry die. do not check parameters too often now but have just done so ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 20ish. i have only added pleco fry to cory tank once as had to raise that tanks temp to 27c which was not ideal for cories, but despite looking strong and healthy when added by the second day again all dead. the cory fry were about 3 weeks old at the time and are all still alive now at 3 months old. i only tried this out of frustration hoping for a different outcome. i still feel this is down to fry not feeding, but do you think 2 days without food would cause them to die? i feel it would. just one more observation, although not ideal i know, i do use the same hoses and buckets across all my tanks for water changes etc. at the risk of cross contamination. but no deaths anywhere else. thanks again for all input. cheers ron.

[stuby]

A little higher than I like to see on the nitrates. I have to admit I am not very good when it comes to checking my nitrate levels..... but any time I have check it is very low. I do change a lot of water in all of my tanks.... I change water daily but not daily in every tank. You can try some sand in the breeder/fry trap.... something small to hide under and around wouldn't hurt too if you don't already do this. I don't normally feed mine when I have them in a fry trap for at least a day or two after I don't see any eggs sack. So I really don't think they are starving to death...... can you tell if they are eating the food you put in there? If not, you may be feeding them to early and the food that is left spoils?? They will eat off some wood also if you put that in the fry saver.... I hate to just suggest meds and I am not sure what you have available to you but two meds come to mind that are safe and forgiving if you overdose is Levamisole and Praziquantel. Do a search to see dosing and what they are used for.....

Chuck

[Ron.H]

thanks chuck. i cant say that i have seen them eat, and inspecting the bodies, although tiny, their bellies do not seem sunken or swollen to best of my knowledge. also when feeding in the fry box twice daily, would remove all food with turkey baster prior to feeding. i am currently searching for information on worms now, although all parents were wormed prior to purchase and have not noticed any signs in the 18 months ive had them. but then again im not that familiar with them anyway, luckily ive not had to deal with them. just strange all fry die in this short time frame. thanks again. ron.

[stuby]

Ron, can you post a picture of the fry saver or describe how yours works...... do you have water from the tank passing though the fry saver. If so is it air driven or ?? Any uneaten food should be taken out in a half hour to a hour after you feed them.... if there is any left. Ideally there shouldn't be any food left at all. The picture I added is one I use..... it have a air driven sponge filter on one side that puts clean water into the fry saver..... the other end has a plastic mesh so water can escape back to the tank.

Chuck

[Ron.H]

chuck my fry saver is a home made plastic box with an open top approx. 8x8x8 inches. on three sides i cut 4 inch square openings, an inch off the floor of the box and covered with a plastic mesh. when placed in the flow of wavemaker water is constantly replenished but there is some shelter in the bottom inch. this means if i have to lift it out for any reason, water drains through the mesh leaving an inch of water in the bottom. the short time the fry are in here i often see them attached to the mesh and on the bottom of the box.this box is about 2ft from the wavemaker and flow is not excessive. will try to follow with a photo. cheers ron.

[Ron.H]

[Fundulopanchax76]

Maybe you have to put an air stone in the egg/fry basket and this will increase oxygen level.

[stuby]

As long as you have some water movement though the fry saver it should do just fine. A air stone in the fry saver wouldn't hurt...as long as it doesn't create to much current. But I don't think this is the problem either. My suggestion is to not feed at all for two days after they have absorbed their egg sack and only feed a very small amount when you do start to feed. Just enough so they eat it all in a hour or less. Maybe a very thin layer of sand in the fry saver.... make sure it is round sand and doesn't have sharp edges and see if that helps.

HTH
Chuck

[YSR50]

Doubt it's your temp since, as been mentioned here already, I've also bred frogs in a wide range of temp and water conditions. From your picture and description of the location I would suggest you move the box closer to the wave maker and place an air stone in the box next to the screen on the side closest to the wave maker. You may not be getting enough flow through the screens. You also want to get some surface agitation inside the box, just as you would with the rest of the tank. Oxygen is very important, especially with fry. The only time I've lost fry in boxes has been due to a lack of flow/oxygen. I've actually had fry start to die during a water change because it was the first tank I drained and the last that I filled. During that time there was very little flow in their box. Due to being busy and/or the fact that I'm lazy, I regularly skip a day or two when it comes to cleaning waste/uneaten food and still do not have any issues because of good levels of flow/oxygen.

I use the same "technic" for all my plecos, whether I find new free swimming fry or wrigglers from eggs I've hatch in a tumbler. I put them in a bare bottom fry box with a small piece of driftwood, a few day old Indian Almond leaf from the tank, maybe a piece of floating plant, snails, and CRS. I start feeding NLS Grow Fry Starter a few days before the egg sacks are absorbed. Once absorbed, they usually get fed about the same diet as the adults.

Different things work for different people and if your male is kicking the wrigglers out early he might know something you/we don't, or he might just need more practice. It might come down to just waiting for the male to do his job before things start working for you

[Ron.H]

if i have another spawn will add an airstone to the box although must point out i do not fully submerge the box so that top of mesh screens are exposed to waters surface. one other observation, on his second spawn the male kicked i think 9 eggs but continued fanning until he released about 4/5 freeswimming fry. all of these plus others i have released into the tank since have not hidden but move around the tank either on glass or on rocks, wood, caves etc. they did this for about 24hrs then gradually got weaker and literally went belly up. there was food available and i thought they would be feeding from the surfaces. has anybody rearing fry in the main tank noticed this behaviour or do yours hide until lights out. my zebra fry hid from the minute they were released until late evening when they could be seen around the tank. thanks for all help cheers ron.

[pleconut]

Have you tried providing wood pieces and Indian almond leaves? Most of the debris in breeder box where my 2 week old L134s is remains of eaten leaves, they fed for a couple of days only on these just after egg sacks absorb. (And/or biofilm) I also feed micro protein pellets and veg flakes that they only just started to eat in last 2 days I've also read fry will feed on algae in tank but none in my enclosed filtered breeder box. Indian almond leaves also helps guard off infections and provide hideouts for them. .

[Ron.H]

i have used dried oak leaves in there but next time will try indian almond and small piece of driftwood. thank you ron.

[YSR50]

My frogs always hung out on the glass at the surface. In the beginning, I would attach zucchini where they were gathering. In about a week they would start hiding at all times.

I would think oak leaves would work just as well. The important thing is to make sure they are "seasoned", meaning they have been in breeder tank for a while.

[gehandylan]

Hi Ron,

Try adding a fine layer of sand in the fry saver, a piece of driftwood and a few IAL. I add small piece of driftwood in the egg tumbler too and hv noticed wigglers with egg sacks gracing on the driftwood.

My fry survival rate is very high now. Good luck.

[Jobro]

My L134 spawn and the fry survives at 26°C just fine.

Water Quality seems to be a really big issue with these. If anything is off, they will all die quite quickly. A cheap UV-Clearer might be worth a try. The fry needs to be supplied with lots of oxygen and there must be a lot of water circulation from the parents tank into the fry saver.

L134 are eager eaters, they will feed on decapsulated artemia, chlorella algae or just soft pleco tabs like Sera Viformo (no idea if these are available everywhere but they are great for baby fish).

Cheers Johannes

[pleconut]

Don't see any reason why oak leaves can't be used as an alternative for Indian almond leaves.