L236 tank - ammonia issues

[frootbat]

Hi,

I started an L236 tank on Nov 24 with 6x (2-2.5 inch) fish in a 20 long. Here is the layout:



I did a fishless cycle for 10 days prior to receiving the fish, waited for my nitrite spike to come and go, ammonia to go away, nitrates to appear, etc... Filtration is a Hydro III sponge, a 4" poret cubefilter (both powered by a Tetra 60 gallon air pump), and I added an Aquaclear 50 (just sponge and bio media, no carbon) a couple of weeks ago. I feed once a day 6 days a week, either 2 cubes of frozen brine/bloodworms or the equivalent in Repashy Bottom Scratcher.

I do a poop cleaning at least every other day which changes about 2 gallons each, and a 5-8 gallon water change weekly, but I STILL cant shake ammonia in the tank, on a good day it is between .25-.5, and a bad day .5-.75. This has been consistent for the past month and I'm worried.

I have only made 2 changes to the tank since I started it, both in the past week:
1. I had a different no-name sponge filter in the tank that I replaced with the poret, but I have not yet removed the old sponge filter for fear of losing bacteria.
2. Replaced round clay caves with the condos, poop and food was collecting in the crevices of the clay caves, the condos don't have that problem.

I can only think of two possibilities, either 6 fish is too many for my tank, or I need more/better filtration, or maybe replace the biomedia in the aquaclear with something better like MarinePure, but maybe you guys can think of something I'm missing. Oh, and I have tested my RO source and tap water, both are ammonia free.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

[dw1305]

Hi all,
You need to change a lot more water daily until you don't have any measurable ammonia. I'm not a fan of the cycled/non-cycled binary concept, but if you want to go down that route, the problem is that your filter isn't fully cycled.

You need to get to that stable state, and because you already have fish that are sensitive to ammonia and low oxygen, you need to remove the ammonia, that continually diffuses from the fishes, via daily high volume water changes.

Because you don't have any substrate, or plants, you are reliant on microbial filtration within the filter sponges. We now know that the bacteria we thought were responsible for nitrification aren't necessarily involved in aquariums, and that the microbial assemblage favoured by high ammonia loadings is not the same as the stable microbial assemblage you get in an established aquarium.

I like HOBs and air powered sponge filters, because the filter media receives a lot of oxygen, and having multiple sponges allows you to stagger cleaning. Having both HOB and air powered sponge also avoids having a single point of failure (in the air pump).

I like sintered glass as a bio-media, something like Eheim "coco-pops" (Substrat pro), but most bio-media will work, given time.

I'm not a particularly good fish-keeper, and I'm not always able to maintain the tanks as regularly, so I need all the help I can get, and for me having a sand substrate (doesn't have to be a thick layer) and plants with floating, or emergent, leaves makes tank management a lot easier.

Have a look at "Using deep gravel.....<(viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41038)"> It is quite long thread (and links), but it is well worth a read.

cheers Darrel

[Jobro]

If this is a 20 gallon then I would thoroughly rethink the size of the tank and the amount/size of the fish.

These are the kind of setups that make people believe plecos will only hide all day long... I hope you enjoy staring at tales if not, you might want to try offering them a little more pleco friendly environment in order to actually watch them moving around in your tank.

[frootbat]

I set the tank up for breeding and to make it easier to clean. If it will make them happy I suppose I can add some more wood, but I don't light the tank, so plants are out of the question.

Do you think 6 of these fish are too many for a 20 long? Do you think I should cut back to 3 or 4?

[TwoTankAmin]

I think a bigger tank is needed as well. If you go with a 48x12 or a 36 x 18 inch tank you can add a few more plecos as well.

I also think the odds are good that you are getting false ammonia readings for any number of reasons. I would be happy to go into detail if you would like.

I have 6/13 pleco tanks bare bottom and no plants and have for years. No lights saves money and prevents algae. Well, actually i do have lights, but they are only used for cleaning the tank and sometimes for feeding so I can see where i am placing the food.

You need more cover too, imo.

[Lycosid]

I set the tank up for breeding and to make it easier to clean. If it will make them happy I suppose I can add some more wood, but I don't light the tank, so plants are out of the question.

Making the tank easier to clean also makes you much more dependent on those filters. Obviously it can be done (see TwoTankAdmin's post) but a ten-day cycle, six fish in a twenty-gallon, and no other places in the tank for bacteria to grow or any other organisms to uptake ammonia is cutting it close. Too close, it looks like.

There's a bit of a divide here on the boards about this, but there are essentially two ways to deal with the ecosystem in your tank. One is very controlled: bare-bottom tanks, no plants, just filters. This basically attempts to limit the non-fish organisms in your tank to just those you know are beneficial. I'm on the other side - throw everything into your tank. Plants? Sure! Try six species! Ostracods? Worms? Daphnia? Wood? Why not! All of those will bring some bacteria with them. (Most fish diseases/parasites will come in on actual fish, since they need fish for part of their life cycle.) The resulting ecosystem will be very complex, and complex (diverse) ecosystems have higher stability. They can also occasionally do wacky things, like the time I ended up with an outbreak of (harmless) pink, colonial rotifers. If you have really expensive fish these risks may not be worth it. If, like me, you have lots of cheap fish and not enough time you can let a more complex ecosystem handle things for you.

Given my now-acknowledged bias I'd say that if you're going to go the very controlled route you should not just have a cycled filter, but a mature filter. No doubt there are some ammonia-eaters in your filter, but which ones? Most ecosystems change over time as pioneer species give way to later successional stages. I'm not sure that your filter is ready for that kind of bioload just because it cleared some ammonia in a fishless cycle.

[frootbat]

Wow, it looks like despite the best of intentions I may have screwed up. I suppose I could get more cover in the form of plants, and a really low-power led hood to light them...I'm thinking very low light stuff like anubias/java fern/anacharis. Hopefully I won't be introducing algae doing this

As for a larger tank, I'm afraid a 20 long is the largest I can have. I have an lfs that will probably be willing to offer me store credit for me L236s. I'd rather go that route than have these guys suffer.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm on the other side - throw everything into your tank. Plants? Sure! Try six species! Ostracods? Worms? Daphnia? Wood? Why not! All of those will bring some bacteria with them. (Most fish diseases/parasites will come in on actual fish, since they need fish for part of their life cycle.) The resulting ecosystem will be very complex, and complex (diverse) ecosystems have higher stability.

That is where I'm coming from as well.

Fish keepers like @TwoTankAmin are really skilled at aquarium management and can see things happening that I will never see. A more complex ecosystem buys you a little more wriggle room.

I'm thinking very low light stuff like anubias/java fern/anacharis. Hopefully I won't be introducing algae doing this

I have Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus) and Anubias barteri in all my tanks, they are very tolerant plants, but they aren't ideal for nutrient uptake, because they are slow growing.

This is going to sound strange but algae is your friend. Any green plant is converting nutrients in the water into plant mass, this is a good thing, it doesn't matter if it is the plants you want (aquarium plants), or the plants you don't (algae). If you don't have enough light for plant growth those nutrients aren't taken out of solution and their levels can only be reduced by water changes. Plants need most nitrogen (N) and potassium (K), followed by lower levels of phosphorus (P) and then even lower levels of all the other essential nutrients.

In terms of plants, the ones that have the greatest nitrogen uptake are floating (or emergent) plants. This is because they have access to aerial CO2 (~400ppm, rather than 1 or 2 ppm submerged). The other advantage of a floating plant is that it is adapted to make use of tropical sun-light, and has photosystems that can deal with very bright light. Light and CO2 level drive photosynthesis, and plants like Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), Water Fern (Salvinia natans) or Nile Cabbage (Pistia stratiotes) have very fast growth rate potentials in nutrient rich conditions.

cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

I will let folks in on a little secret, the best filtration I have used is the Hamburg Mattenfilter. I wish I had discovered these sooner. The have made my tanks healthier, my water clearer and my workload easier. They are especially effective in tanks without plants or substrate.

On the other hand, I keep a number of planted communities- I love these tanks. But I pay for all my hobby costs with my pleco tanks. I do use power filters and canisters, many of which employ the same Poret foam I use for the mattens.

On the other hand, everything @dw1305 writes about plants and substrate being effective ways of making sure a tank is safe and healthy is dead on. It was all of these things that made me remove all the plastic and silk plants from my first tank and convert to live. But there is always a cost for any of the choices we make. Planted tanks require we devote time and money to plant care. The tank chemistry changes as the plants grow, but they do not know how to self prune or how to add fertilizers to the water or to change light bulbs.

I have no issues with using plants in tanks. However, I think it is also important to discuss the ways of having healthy tanks without plants or even without substrate. Not every fresh water habitat has live plants in great numbers. But they will mostly all have algae and all will have microorganisms galore.

Btw- I think, for the beginning fishkeeper, cycling must be a binary issue. Either the tank is fully cycled or it is not. This makes life simpler for new comers to the hobby and a lot safer for their fish as well.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I will let folks in on a little secret, the best filtration I have used is the Hamburg Mattenfilter. I wish I had discovered these sooner. The have made my tanks healthier, my water clearer and my workload easier. They are especially effective in tanks without plants or substrate.

I'm a Hamburg Mattenfilter (HMF) fan as well.

I don't keep any tanks without plants or substrate, but if I did, I would use an HMF, because, once mature, it can replicate some of the features that you find in a substrate.

Dr Stephan Tanner talks about this in his "aquarium biofiltration" article (http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/a ... iltration/). I haven't tried them but I like the look of the jetlifters that Swiss Tropicals sell as well.

Btw- I think, for the beginning fishkeeper, cycling must be a binary issue. Either the tank is fully cycled or it is not. This makes life simpler for new comers to the hobby and a lot safer for their fish as well.

You're right, in this case it is a binary issue, "cycled" or "not cycled". This is because this is a binary, black or white, situation, where there is no alternative to effective biofiltration by the filter media.

Personally I always want shades of grey.

cheers Darrel

[Lycosid]

Wow, it looks like despite the best of intentions I may have screwed up. I suppose I could get more cover in the form of plants, and a really low-power led hood to light them...I'm thinking very low light stuff like anubias/java fern/anacharis. Hopefully I won't be introducing algae doing this

In my electric catfish tank at work, which is not a "pretty" tank, I don't want any plants or light. So I have a PVC water bridge to a big plastic tote which gets a light and duckweed. A pump then sends water back to the main tank. I also hide my heater in this tote because the electric catfish loves to try to hide behind anything and everything at least once.

I am also a fan of Mattenfilters. In fact, my home office tank is a planted tank with a Matttenfilter. (Well, technically two Mattenfilters, one of which water is pumped out from behind, into a wet/dry trickle system, which dumps it back behind the second Mattenfilter.)

In terms of cycling time, my home tank received plants (and blackworms) on June 1st. I added the first fish on November 9th, and am not done adding them. Now, you have one species, but I have several, so I also added them in order of hardiness.

I'll readily admit that I was really slow on this (it's a fun project, and I had work projects that took priority) but if I was bringing in a heavy bioload of expensive fish I would have cycled the tank for a month and introduced the fish a few at a time if possible.

[Linus_Cello]

What do folks use with their Mattenfilter? Just air? Do you attach it to a power head? Canister filter?

[Lycosid]

What do folks use with their Mattenfilter? Just air? Do you attach it to a power head? Canister filter?

I just use an air pump, normally.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What do folks use with their Mattenfilter? Just air? Do you attach it to a power head? Canister filter?

I used a maxijet powerhead, mainly because I had plenty of them spare.

If I had more tanks I would definitely go down the "large air pump and air main" route.

I use big foam blocks as pre-filters on both canister filters and power-heads.



cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

I have Mattens in three 33 longs. I use both air and small, variable speed Eheim hobby pumps. I use the Swiss Tropicals curved jetlifter with air power but make my own custom spray bars for the pump returns. In pleco breeding tanks I need more current across the front in in one tank I use a second Matten with a pump. The Matten has a hole in the lower part near the front glass and the return is a an Eheim pump with a power head output adapter fitted to it. This one blows down the front of the tank towards to other Matten which has its return over the top. I use both 2 and 3 inch thick 20 ppi foam sheets.

I have one canister loaded with only Poret foam and I also use it in some of my hang-ons. Most of the Poret I use is the 20 ppi. But I also have some 30 ppi and the next canister with 3 baskets going into use will have 10 ppi in one and 20 ppi in the other two.

I am annoyed as I ended up with so many plecos I had to take down my bio-farm tank and stash eight assorted size/ppi well cycled Poret cubes. I had to find a place to park 5 almost adult size L236 I am holding for somebody to pick up late in Jan.

I find the Poret cubes to be excellent alternatives to the Mattens and far superior to any other sponge filters i have used.

[Linus_Cello]

I have one canister loaded with only Poret foam and I also use it in some of my hang-ons. Most of the Poret I use is the 20 ppi. But I also have some 30 ppi and the next canister with 3 baskets going into use will have 10 ppi in one and 20 ppi in the other two.

I find the Poret cubes to be excellent alternatives to the Mattens and far superior to any other sponge filters i have used.

Is it one big piece of foam in the canister? Small blocks in each chamber? One piece cut to fit for each chamber?

[TwoTankAmin]

Due to the shape and design of the Eheim baskets I started by cutting a single black shaped to fit the basket and bored a hole through it where needed. The problem was the basket handle (which cannot be removed) made it impossible to put the whole foam into the basket. So I cut it in half and that solved the problem.

So each basket gets two 1/2 pieces. The 2026 has 2 baskets and uses all 20 ppi foam. The 2028 has 3 baskets so the first one in the flow path is loaded with 10 ppi and the other two with 20 ppi.

I have yet to find an application in which a sponge, of some sort, has traditionally been used where using Poret instead has not proved to be a better solution. Use the 10 ppi for pre-filtering, the 20 ppi for general applications and the 30 or higher ppi for specialty situations: examples- shrimp/fry tanks, sumps with 4 or 5 sheets as the final sheet in the flow path.

[YSR50]

Hi all,

I use big foam blocks as pre-filters on both canister filters and power-heads.



cheers Darrel

What canisters are you running if you don't mind me asking?

So each basket gets two 1/2 pieces. The 2026 has 2 baskets and uses all 20 ppi foam. The 2028 has 3 baskets so the first one in the flow path is loaded with 10 ppi and the other two with 20 ppi.

Wow, thought I was the only person still running a 2026

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What canisters are you running if you don't mind me asking?

They are all pre-owned Eheims. At the moment I have a 2211, 2224, 2234 and an Aquacompact 40 in use. I like the Classic and the eXperience ranges more than the Ecco Pro. I have quite a few "distressed" Eheim filters that I've bought of ebay, and I've been cannibalizing the bits from them. The largest tanks I have are only 2' (60cm) long.

At some point I'll buy new seals, spindles etc for them and then I'll just run the Classics and 2224s. I've also got a large Eheim Liberty HOB and a 2226, which I like, but I don't have a tanks for them. I have the same problem with the Aquacompact, it doesn't suit most tanks, because of its design.

cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

i actually have 5 Eheims, but only 3 in use for now. I expect to put the 4th one into service in Jan. Four are 2026s and the last a 2028. I standardize. I also have one Liberty hang on and 4 Eheim compact pumps. All of my other hang-ons are Aquaclears (16), many of which use at least one Poret foam in them. I also run 14 Poret air driven cubes and one last ATI sponge. I pre-filter most intakes.

I always like to suggest there are three brands to choose in canisters, imo:

1. Eheim
2. Eheim
or
3. Eheim

My oldest 2026 has been in continuous operation since 2003. It doubled as my pressurized co2 diffusor as well for the next 10 years. Since then it has just done filtering.