Breather bags?

[sabrinah]

I'm moving in a couple months and I'm trying to come up with a game plan. Are the spines sharp enough to puncture breather bags? I have l129 and I don't imagine they could shred a bag, but maybe poke it a bit. Would being double bagged in normal bags be safer? We will be leaving far too early in the morning for any fish stores to put oxygen in the bags for me. They would have to manage with good old room air. It's a 6-8 hour drive, multiple other pets and tanks (one of which is dirted. Not fun to move), so once the drive is through they would be spending a few more hours in the bags.

[bekateen]

Hi sabrinah,

How many debilittera do you have? And do you have a styrofoam (insulated) packing container, or even a good camping ice chest? Your post says you're in California, is that right? The weather here is mild but on the warm side, so driving in daytime can get quite warm in a trunk or truck and insulation will be helpful to protect from thermal extremes.

I would think that for a 6-8 hour drive, even with a few extra hours afterward while you unpack, breather bags aren't really called for.

Most importantly, don't feed the fish for 1.5-2 weeks before leaving, then pack them in a medium or large sized fish bag filled about 1/3 full with clean water. Don't start with dirty tank water that already has pollutants in it. Either use fresh clean water (if its chemistry is like that in your tanks) or you could do a big water change in your tank the day before you drain it and the next morning use the relatively-clean tank water to fill the bags - If the fish haven't been fed recently, they won't pollute that new water much and it will be clean enough to put in the bags while at the same time the fish will be used to its chemistry (vs putting fish straight into new tapwater that might be chemically different than old tank water).

Don't overcrowd the bag; if you can, put one fish per bag. Make sure the bags are sealed tight with so much air in the bags that the bags' sides are expanded like an inflated balloon (not limp because there's not a lot of air in the bags).

Double bag all bags with the inner bag upside down inside the outer bag. Pack all the bags in the insulated box with newspaper, rags, towels or socks filling the empty space in the box so the bags don't roll around). Then just go.

If you want to, about half way through the trip, or at least when you get to your new destination, you can open the bags to air then reclose (so the bags don't collapse). But honestly I don't think this should be necessary.

I think that would be sufficient packing without resorting to breather bags.

I would suggest also that you bring a clean (fish-safe) bucket, an electric air pump, tubing and an airstone handy. Keep them handy and accessible, not buried in a packed box which you can't find. Then when you get to your destination you can dump all the debilittera into that one bucket and use the airstone to aerate them while you set up their tanks. Again, may not be necessary but it shouldn't hurt the fish and it would give you peace of mind.

To answer your original question, yes spines can puncture breather bags and cause them to leak. And I am told that once a breather bag is wetted on its outside then its "breathability" declines dramatically, so a punctured, leaking breather bag is bad.

I've certainly kept clown plecos and corys in regular bags for 6-7 hours before with no casualties, because the fish and bags were prepared correctly and handled right in transport.

I'll end by saying I don't have tons of experience packaging plecos, so perhaps someone with more experience can confirm or correct my info above.

Good luck, Eric

P.S., are you staying in California? If so, where are you moving to? I'm in Stockton, CA. It's always nice to meet fellow PlanetCatfish members. -Eric

[sabrinah]

I'm in San Jose moving to a tiny town in Humboldt County. The drive has lots of windy roads and hills. I'm not moving until December so I'm working on compiling a list of things to get and a good game plan. All the fish will be moved in a styrofoam container, possibly with a heat pack since it can get seriously cold up there and I don't know if my old car can handle having the heat on while tackling hills. The container will either be in the trunk with the tanks (not too fond of that option) or on the back floorboard. The seats are dedicated to my furry pets. Sticking to normal bags sounds good if getting wet is bag for breather bags. I don't want to take that risk.

I only have two since one died by getting stuck in a hole in a rock. Horrible way to go. If the LFS ever gets another shipment (I took the last nice ones. The rest have poor coloring) I may pick up one more. Each pleco will get it's own bag and my schooling fish will only be a few to each bag. I was planning on having a couple spare buckets (gotta fill the ones I have now with rocks, wood, probably fresh dirt) just in case I can't get all the tanks back up in one day and some fish have to spend the night in a bucket. It'll probably be the dirted tank inhabitants (no plecos, but some corydoras) that get the short end of the stick since they're getting all new substrate and planting is harder in that tank. I'm quite worried about how my shrimp will handle it.

[TwoTankAmin]

I have never used breather bags. I do not believe you can double bag with them and plecos should be double bagged.

6-8 hours bagged is nothing. I have had plecos I shipped take almost 5 days to arrive and they were alive when they did.

Your local fish store should be happy to supply you with a few bags, they only cost them pennies. I have never purged (not fed fish and let them poop out most of what is in their system) for anywhere near the time Eric suggested. 2-3 days should usually be fine. But in your case it is almost not needed since the trip is so short. If you "overbag" you should not have issues.

Overbag means one uses bigger bags with more air and water than when shipping since more water costs more to ship. But when you are personally transporting fish, weight and space are much less of a concern. The basic rules for bagging are simple:
1. The fish should fit in the bag easily no matter what position the bag is in.
2. The bag should be filled about 50/50 with clean water and air. If the bag is on its side, water must still cover the fish. The volume of air is actually more important than water volume.
3. Fish should be double bagged. The bags should open in opposite directions. The need to be tightly sealed using rubber bands or a very tight knot.
4. Oxygen is not required for most fish and for some is not to be used. You can use your air pump to inflate the bag. I sometime actually exhale into bags to fill them with air as i never mastered the grab the bah trick we see in stores. Blowing up the bag with a few deep fast breaths puts relatively little co2 into the bag.*
5. For longer trips it is a good idea to add a small amount of an ammonia detoxifier to the bag water.
6. Cooler water tends to slow down fish. So a temp drop along the way is not a horrible thing as long as it does not result in a dangerous to the fish level. Basically, having them at the lower end of their acceptable temperature range is fine. That they are also in the dark inside a box also helps keep them relaxed.

If you follow the above and the boxing as Eric described you should be just fine. I see no need to open the bags to re-oxygenate them at all. Bear in mind that the only way any of the fish any of us own have not been bagged and moved several times to get to our tanks is for them to have been born in there. If fish could not be safely transported, the hobby would not exist

*Inhaled air is by volume 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen and small amounts include argon, carbon dioxide, neon, helium, and hydrogen.[17]
The gas exhaled is 4% to 5% by volume of carbon dioxide, about a 100 fold increase over the inhaled amount. The volume of oxygen is reduced by a small amount, 4% to 5%, compared to the oxygen inhaled. The typical composition is:[18] from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathing
(Using a couple of rapid breaths, the co2 in the exhales will be less and the O will be more.)

[sabrinah]

Regular bags it is then! Thank you very much! Oddly enough my LFS will not give away bags so I'll probably get some from Aquabid or Ebay.

[bekateen]

TTA makes a lot of good points.

I have never used breather bags. I do not believe you can double bag with them and plecos should be double bagged.

Breather bags can be double bagged. I used double bagged breather bags when I transported 31 plecos from the UK to the USA. But as I mentioned above, if they are punctured and leak, then their "breathability" is lost and that is bad (I am told that if water leaks from the inner bag into the minuscule space between the two bags, then it effectively creates a gas-barrier between the two bags, thus sealing the inner bag from efficient gas exchange).

I have never purged (not fed fish and let them poop out most of what is in their system) for anywhere near the time Eric suggested. 2-3 days should usually be fine. But in your case it is almost not needed since the trip is so short. If you "overbag" you should not have issues.

Sorry, I may have overstated that.

I see no need to open the bags to re-oxygenate them at all.

I did not mean to suggest this was needful but just that if sabrinah has concerns, it wouldn't hurt to do this. Again, I hope I didn't overstate it.

Oddly enough my LFS will not give away bags so I'll probably get some from Aquabid or Ebay.

sabrinah, you said you are in San Jose. What LFS did you visit? Without knowing the answer, I'd recommend Neptune Aquatics, 1238 N. 5th St., San Jose, CA 95112. They don't have a phone to call for customer service, but their store hours are Monday - Friday: 11am to 7pm; Saturday\Sunday: 11am to 6pm. I've shopped there only twice (FYI, they have a great selection of corys!); I can't guarantee they'll sell you bags but I hope they would; offer them 10-25 cents for one bag and 2 rubber bands; then get twice as many as you need to double bag them and hopefully they'll go for it. Otherwise, contact the Pacific Coast Cichlid Association. They meet the second Saturday of each month at Harry’s Hoffbrau, 390 Saratoga Avenue, San Jose, CA 95129. I know my local fish club sells bags and rubber bands for 10 cents each at club meetings; maybe the PCCA does to, so they might be able to connect you with bags. If you want to check in advance about that before attending a meeting to get bags, their info is here: http://cichlidworld.com/. By the way, even if not to get bags, their meetings are terrific, and they are held in a hoffbrau - how can you lose?

Cheers, Eric

[sabrinah]

Neptune Aquatics is actually where I go! I asked about bags a while ago when I was in there, so long ago that they still had a phone, and was told they don't give or sell them. Maybe it's changed since then so I'll ask if I go back before I move. It's an unlikely trip given that I found my favorite l129 dead yesterday and I kinda want to give up on fish. I really wanted to breed these guys but now I'm down to one and I can't afford to replace them.

I hadn't heard of the cichlids association! They meet very close by too. I ought to check them out. I had a pair of apistos until the female became murderous after multiple failed spawns. She got to go back to Neptune. I've always wanted to give cichlids another go but I can't have any more tanks.

[bekateen]

It's an unlikely trip given that I found my favorite l129 dead yesterday and I kinda want to give up on fish. I really wanted to breed these guys but now I'm down to one and I can't afford to replace them.

I hadn't heard of the cichlids association! They meet very close by too. I ought to check them out. I had a pair of apistos until the female became murderous after multiple failed spawns. She got to go back to Neptune. I've always wanted to give cichlids another go but I can't have any more tanks.

Hi sabrinah, I sent you a PM. Please check your inbox. Cheers, Eric

[Ltygress]

A few extra facts about breather bags:

They only "guarantee" a fish can live in them for 48 hours.
Most fish can live in NORMAL bags for 48 hours with NO problems. WITHOUT pure oxygen.
Most wholesalers ship fish without pumping oxygen into the bag. It's just normal air.
Ammonia build-up will usually kill the fish in normal bags before lack of oxygen (ammonia does contribute to the lack of oxygen).


I've had baby angelfish (pea sized) get lost in the mail and survive SIX DAYS in a normal bag. I only use enough water to cover their *bodies* when the bag is turned at any angle. That's it.

And although I don't see you using a huge number of normal bags, if anyone is looking for them at cheap prices, check out pack-secure.com. They come in packs of 500 or 1,000 but the price is about the same as a fish wholesaler's pack of 200! You can order thicker plastic bags on there too (fish bags are polyethylene and generally 2 mil, by the way).

[TwoTankAmin]

@sabrinah

If you have to bag and move the fish and you need bags, I am happy to mail you a few at no charge. You can find your own rubber bands though. You can just shoot me a site PM. I just need to know the size of the fish you need to bag.

Also, don't give up on the hobby. Sometime fish do die due to natural causes as opposed to something we did. Like anything else in life, the longer you do something, the better at it you should become. Most of us had losses when we started out in the hobby.

Note to others reading this. There are a few tricks you can use in shipping fish where there is an above average risk they could puncture the bag.
1. When double bagging wrap the inner bag in a sheet of newspaper. A small hole in the inside bag can be plugged this way and can help prevent it going though the outer bag.
2. I often use 2 mil bags inside and a 3 mil outer bag. In extreme cases I will use both bags at 3 mil.
3. If one has really "pointy fish," consider triple bagging.
4. I have discovered that when double bagging it helps to use an outside bag that is a couple of inches taller the the inner bag.

Finally, I have a question re breather bags. Do they allow co2 to pass out of the bag? I ask since the build up of co2 in the bag acts to lower the pH of the water which, in turn, helps keep more of the ammonia the fish generate in the NH4 form which is way less harmful than NH3. This is why a lot of people who regularly receive fish shipped in prefer to plop and drop rather than trying to acclimate them. I am in that camp. I wonder it this explains why they only guarantee survival for 48 hours?

[sabrinah]

Thanks to you all I have no worries about oxygen in the bags now!

Wrapping the inner bag in newspaper is a great idea. I might try that even though I don't think l129 count as a particularly high puncture risk.

Do they not sell Sera bags to the general public? I like that there's no corners but I can't seem to find any for sale.

[Ltygress]

Finally, I have a question re breather bags. Do they allow co2 to pass out of the bag? I ask since the build up of co2 in the bag acts to lower the pH of the water which, in turn, helps keep more of the ammonia the fish generate in the NH4 form which is way less harmful than NH3. This is why a lot of people who regularly receive fish shipped in prefer to plop and drop rather than trying to acclimate them. I am in that camp. I wonder it this explains why they only guarantee survival for 48 hours?

From everything I have read, yes, they do allow CO2 to leave the bag. I don't have experience in using breather bags for the reasons I mentioned above, so I can't give a personal account. I also don't have anything to test air levels of CO2, so it wouldn't help me to compare them to normal bags, either.

And I'm a member of the plop-and-drop gang too. I think this is where we are supposed to come up with some kind of hang signal that we "throw down" to intimidate the other side.... except I'm too lazy for that.