L173 Spawn

[TwoTankAmin]

As promised, I am creating this thread to follow this spawn.

I was finally able to see a bunch of eggs at the back of the cave. I could not get a count but i know there were several i did see. I am not certain, but there may be wigglers as at an early stage they are so tiny that movement is hard to delineate from dad's movements causing the eggs to shift. I am encouraged that the eggs are likely viable as my experience has been that dads do not stay on no fertile eggs for days. Since this dad is still at work, I am pretty confident its because he has good eggs.

My dilemma is how to proceed from here. In most tanks I leave spawns to proceed as they will. However, in my L236 tank conditions are such that new fry are at risk and my solution is these have become the only spawns I pull. First they go in their cave with dad to a circulating trap on the front of the breeder tank. When the fry are close to free swimming the cave, dad and fry go into the growout tank. The dad and cave are returned to the breedeinr tank in about 7-10 days. So what should I do here?

This has been a long journey to get a spawn and I would hate to lose it. On the other hand, I would much prefer to leave things as they are. I have found that spawns tend to happen in batches especially when the fry are left in the breeder tank. (Of course this stops being helpful when the tank builds up too many fry.) Also, I find fry grow faster in the breeder tank than a grow tank.

At this time there is no way to get any pictures. But as soon as I get an opportunity to do so, I will get out my camera and do the best I can.

[Jobro]

Congrats again

I would definitely pull them from the cave after they hatched. hyps come out quite big so they might have better chances, but in my experience fry always starves slowly in the parents tank.
With my L183 spawn, 2-3 fry seemed to have remained in the parents tank and when i caught them lately, they were only half the size of their brethrens that I pulled out and feeded in a breeder. They were really slim, no belly, only a head with tail, guess they will die soon
You seem to have the opposite experience, though. So you could try leaving them, but to be honest I wouldn't risk it on the first batch. more spawns are going to follow, for sure ;)

[TwoTankAmin]

Things are still OK in the tank. One thing which I can comment on is the size of the eggs. Most of the Hypans I have had spawn have pretty small eggs. These eggs are easily twice the size i have seen for similar sized plecos. I have been told that because the eggs are so big that spawns tend be be small in number, similar to what we see from zebras. I have no idea how many eggs are in the cave, just that there are eggs and that dad continues doing the bump, bounce boogie keeping them clean and well oxygenated.

I am also told that there are not many folks who have spawned these guys but I have no idea whether this is true. I am just excited to get a spawn after having them for about 16 months. But this also tend to reinforce my belief that when one compares L236, zebras and 173s, there are distinct differences in how old they need to need to be to spawn and how readily they spawn. My impression is that 236 go the fastest and the easiest, next are zebras and then come the 173s. Unfortunately this is not based on a huge data set, especially in regards to the 173.

[stuby]

Congratulations on the spawn Chris! Keep up the good work and looking forward at seeing some baby pictures!

Chuck

[TwoTankAmin]

@stuby
Thanks Chuck

But once again I have to give credit where it is due. First, to Dale and Ingo for getting me back on track re feeding, then to Allen Rapashy for making his great foods. And finally, to my well water for obviously containing an natural fish aphrodisiac. All I do is put in the food in and change the water.

I am a life long poker player. There is a saying among gamblers that goes, "I'd rather be lucky than good any day." I have been very very lucky in terms of having fish spawn in my tanks.

My bet is you, and many other folks on this site, are way more skilled breeders than I could ever be. The one thing I can say is that nobody is more ticked by seeing a new spawn (from any of my fish) than I am

[TwoTankAmin]

Quick update- I just spotted wigglers in the cave with dad. Also, the actual owner of the fish voted to leave the spawn and dad where they are. The eggs are whiter than I have seen from other plecos.

[stuby]

@stuby
Thanks Chuck

But once again I have to give credit where it is due. First, to Dale and Ingo for getting me back on track re feeding, then to Allen Rapashy for making his great foods. And finally, to my well water for obviously containing an natural fish aphrodisiac. All I do is put in the food in and change the water.

Well, you have to give yourself credit as well.... you are the one doing the feeding, tank cleaning, and what to feed along with when, how much, how often you feed and clean. But as you said..... it's better to be lucky and I feel I have been too. If you could send some of that luck with breeding zebras my way I would be in your debt!

Chuck

[TwoTankAmin]

Today I spotted a wiggler that looks like it is not far from free swimming. despite the owner suggesting I leave the fry in the breeder tank, I am not so sure. These are not fish that are all that common. Getting a spawn is not an everyday thing.

On the one hand I know spawning is not usually a solo event once it begins, but this is not 100% by any means. Once the fry leave the cave I will rarely see them and will have no clue if they made it. If I pull the cave and dad to a hang on circulating trap, I can let them grow a bit there before for a couple of weeks before releasing them. That should give them a better chance of making it I think. I would also be able to get a count on them which I do not have now,

I only have a short time to decide I think. I am not sure when the eggs were laid but I spotted them 10 days ago. I check caves regularly so the eggs were not more than two days old (allowing me to have missed them on day 1) then. The tank temp is about 84-86F (29-30C).

[Jobro]

You have wrigglers that you could lose/safe and a hypothetical spawn that may or may not come. I think the right english saying would be: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?

I don't think that plecos, that want to spawn would stop just because you remove the dad with his cave for a few minutes.
With your good feeding regiment, your females should all start to get gravid and they will want to spawn sooner or later. maybe it will be a little later but it will happen either way.

My l134 females are gravid and desperate to spawn. Whenever I create some commotion in the tank, they try to sneak into the dominant males cave. I can watch the male "trapping" them, during a waterchange and will have a spawn 1-2 days later. When I remove the dad with his cave/eggs afterwards, a new male will start the spawning game some days later. Really seems to depend on gravid females and less on the males. They don't seem to care about a little commotion at all.

[Annabellam]

Wow congratulations!

[TwoTankAmin]

Well, I decided to pull them. Dad and babies in the cave are now in a hang on circulating trap. I spotted one baby and it was so dang cute I decided better safe than sorry. One note for those of you who also use the Marina Hang On Traps with an air pump, I find that a small amount of the junk in the tank water collects in the trap. Tiny fry can die in this yuck as well as yucky uneaten food. To reduce the amount of junk sucked from the tank into the trap, I put a small mesh bag over the intake tube in the tank. This filters out a lot of the junk without impeding the flow.

[Jobro]

Well, I decided to pull them. Dad and babies in the cave are now in a hang on circulating trap. I spotted one baby and it was so dang cute I decided better safe than sorry. One note for those of you who also use the Marina Hang On Traps with an air pump, I find that a small amount of the junk in the tank water collects in the trap. Tiny fry can die in this yuck as well as yucky uneaten food. To reduce the amount of junk sucked from the tank into the trap, I put a small mesh bag over the intake tube in the tank. This filters out a lot of the junk without impeding the flow.

I'm using the Marina as well. I clean the bottom of the hang-on twice a day and feed afterwards. seems to work ok so far.
Be carefull about the outlet. Some of my babies managed to jump over the outlet grill and escaped back into the parents tank. The marina comes with two different outlet grills so I glued them together to get more height. Did not have any escapees, since

[TwoTankAmin]

I had just settled into my Sunday maint. routine starting with the 173 tank. I have had one fry out in the trap for almost a day. Dad is protecting others. I had just finished vacuuming the sand in the right half of the tank when I spotted a fry on the front glass. I am almost 100% certain this was not a baby who had gotten out of the trap. If you match the tilt on the traps and the rate at which tank water flows in,, you can manage to insure the water level in the trap is not enough for a fry to swim over the small grate.

I am thinking this fish left the cave before I pull.ed it. I was led to believe these fish do not produce big spawns even though they grow bigger than zebras. I think a good part of that may be due to how large the eggs were. I could only see 3 or 4 fry in with dad. There may have been a couple more tops. With the one I nabbed and returned to the trap, that would be 5-8 fish. This is 1/3 to 1/2 what I would expect. that leads me to believe and hope there are more of them loose in the tank.

My concern is that there do not seem to be many people who have been able to get a group of wild 173 with which to work, at least not in the states (remember these are not my fish). As a result, I think it is important to try and insure as many of the fry as possible survive. It took me a long time to find F1 173 and I do not think I could buy any wild caught ones today. However, I am not tuned into the world of pleco breeders across the globe, so what I see is limited.

Here is another question. I have not listed myself in the list of 173 keepers here because the breeder fish are not mine. My F1 group has been working its way from looking like almost anything else to looking like the typical 173 at maturity. So until I was certain I actually had F1 173 and not something else, I did not want to consider I was a legit keeper. So, if I now list these fish as ones I keep, since the spawn was not from the fish I own, how should I consider that in whether to say I have spawned them? Also the fry are just now free swimming. I would hate to write I spawned them and then have them not make it for some reason. Any advice?

[Raul-7]

I had just settled into my Sunday maint. routine starting with the 173 tank. I have had one fry out in the trap for almost a day. Dad is protecting others. I had just finished vacuuming the sand in the right half of the tank when I spotted a fry on the front glass. I am almost 100% certain this was not a baby who had gotten out of the trap. If you match the tilt on the traps and the rate at which tank water flows in,, you can manage to insure the water level in the trap is not enough for a fry to swim over the small grate.

I am thinking this fish left the cave before I pull.ed it. I was led to believe these fish do not produce big spawns even though they grow bigger than zebras. I think a good part of that may be due to how large the eggs were. I could only see 3 or 4 fry in with dad. There may have been a couple more tops. With the one I nabbed and returned to the trap, that would be 5-8 fish. This is 1/3 to 1/2 what I would expect. that leads me to believe and hope there are more of them loose in the tank.

My concern is that there do not seem to be many people who have been able to get a group of wild 173 with which to work, at least not in the states (remember these are not my fish). As a result, I think it is important to try and insure as many of the fry as possible survive. It took me a long time to find F1 173 and I do not think I could buy any wild caught ones today. However, I am not tuned into the world of pleco breeders across the globe, so what I see is limited.

Here is another question. I have not listed myself in the list of 173 keepers here because the breeder fish are not mine. My F1 group has been working its way from looking like almost anything else to looking like the typical 173 at maturity. So until I was certain I actually had F1 173 and not something else, I did not want to consider I was a legit keeper. So, if I now list these fish as ones I keep, since the spawn was not from the fish I own, how should I consider that in whether to say I have spawned them? Also the fry are just now free swimming. I would hate to write I spawned them and then have them not make it for some reason. Any advice?

Why are you opposed at keeping them with the adults? I understand the concern of value [$$$] and safety of the fry; but I've found that my L46 fry grew very rapidly within 1 year. Some are almost the size of the adults they share the aquarium with [need to remove them soon as to avoid confusion].

[TwoTankAmin]

I am afraid when they are tiny that that makes them more vulnerable. When i cannot see them I cannot monitor them. The idea is to give them a couple of weeks to gain size/weight and then release them. I normally leave fry in breeder tanks as I have observed the same better growth. This time I got more nervous.

The worst part is I just checked the trap and one of the two fry out of the cave died overnight, the other is fine and there are more in the cave. I have no clue what got it. I vac the trap regularly since I am adding BBS and something for dad and i want to gunk to accumulate that could kill fry.

The good news is there is at least one and probably a second female full of eggs- fat, fat, fat. I may have to return the cave and dad to the tank. I might try to get the remaining fry out first.

Edit: I went with the above. I have 5 fry in the trap and they just got some frozen bbs. Dad and cave are back in the tank and there is a very fat fm next to it that looks like she is ready to explode.

[TwoTankAmin]

Only 4 fry today.

No dead body.

Alien abduction or it jumped the border fence back into the tank......

[Jobro]

Was the exact same with me. I had 5 L260 fry and more L183 fry. I only noticed, that a lot of the L183 went missing after one of the L260 went missing as well. They jumped the fence on me, probably same for you ;)

They can jump like 1 cm above water level. Seems to be enough to get over the fence.

[TwoTankAmin]

Quick Update:

Yesterday while cleaning the tank I spotted one fry out in the tank. It was on the small side but active. I have no evidence, but I am inclined to think there is more than one in the tank. The 4 in the trap are doing fine and getting food 2-3 times a day. I will have to dump them back into the tank next week some time as I will be away for 4 days and busy getting ready for the NEC weekend Mar 9-12. I can have my bro feed tanks but he will never manage a trap w/ fry.

[TwoTankAmin]

New Update:

Just went to checkout the fry in the trap. Noticed the male's tail hanging out of the cave. Got the flashlight and checked it out. There is a trapping in progress. There is also another fat female perched outside the cave.

Edit Mar3: There were no fish or eggs in the cave. False alarm. The male may not be ready willing and able yet. I usually wait a while to let him rest and eat for a week after fry are released. I rushed it.

[amazonaquatics]

Congrats! I have my fingers crossed for you. Would love to see some of the get spread around the US. Would love to get my hands on some one day as well! ;)

[TwoTankAmin]

The fry went back into the tank tonight. I am selling at the NEC this weekend and I am running short of sleep preparing. So I figured they would fare better in the big tank. I am too busy to do cave checks this week.

As an aside- when pulling L450s for the event I discovered I have been getting a heck of a lot more spawns than I realized. I must gave left 50-75 fry .5 -.75 inch TL plus a few a tad smaller. There was also a dad on eggs. The Repashy really sets these guys off.

[TwoTankAmin]

A quick update- I was able to spot three of the fry on Tuesday hiding together in a space where the bigger ones would not fit. For how I have most tanks scaped, this is almost a miracle. I consider this a good sign that most of the fry should be alive even if I do not see them.

I have not seen any indications of more spawning in the past couple of weeks. I am getting spawns in a number of my other pleco tanks.

[amazonaquatics]

Great work! Put me on the fry list for the future! ;)

[TwoTankAmin]

Time for an update.

Yesterday late afternoon I was doing weekly maint. on this tank. Both this week and last during cleaning fry came out. Things have been a bit hectic around here and even though I noticed this last week, it did not register until I saw it again this week. Some of the fry I was seeing were clearly too small to have been from the spawn I reported in this thread. The adults must have spawned again, but I never spotted this.

Two things have me confused here. The first spawn should have put on a bit of size now, yet I cannot seem to spot bigger fry, only the smaller ones. This may be normal since very young fry are always curious when I clean their tank. As the flow starts to diminish and then stop, they will come out into the open. This behavior only lasts for a very few weeks and then they seem to learn about the risks of being exposed. So I very well may have larger fry I do not see.

The other curiosity I have noticed in this tank is that the fish do not seem to cave very much. I did get the first spawn from a cave, but, since then, I have not had another spawn I spotted in a cave. What I have noticed for some time now is there are a few places in the tank where the fish have rearranged the sand to create a "custom" cave-like space. There are at least 3 such spaces for sure. But there is also wood and some slate structures which would work as spawning caves "in a pinch." All of these hiding spaces are difficult or impossible to see into. So it is entirely possible that another spawn has taken place out of sight. The only way to get a definitive idea of what is up means breaking down the tank to see what is in there. The obvious problem is that this would risk interrupting potential extended spawning if it is ongoing.

Since revising my feeding regimen in pleco tanks I have been getting a lot of spawns. The problem is I am running out of space for growout. Salvation will come in a couple of weeks when it becomes safe to set up summer tanks on the screened in terrace. I cannot maintain proper water temps. there if the start being under 60F overnight.

[amazonaquatics]

Very interesting. Glad you got another spawn. Any pics of the adults?

[TwoTankAmin]

@amazonaquatics

There are pictures in the original thread I started on these fish when I first got them.
https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/vie ... =5&t=42699

[amazonaquatics]

They are beautiful. Hope you have fry to spread around soon!

[TwoTankAmin]

Bear in mind that the adult fish are not mine, they are on loan. The deal is half of any fry are mine and half go to the owners of the fish who do not get involved with working at spawning fish.

However, I do also have a second group of F1 173s in growout. With luck I might finally see some action from them by year's end. My experience with the Hypans with which I have worked is that the 173 seem to take the most time to hit spawning size/age.

The best part about having the two groups is that it taught me why there are not more of this L number circulating in the hobby. I had the opportunity to observe both adults and near adult fish as well as juveniles developing into adults. One thing I know for sure, if you put a bunch of 173 fry in front of me with no information, I would have no idea they were 173s. As they grew, I would be saying the same thing for many months. At some stage in their growth I would likely have thought some might be zebras and others l236.

Not until they go through the final stage of changing their stripes (so to speak) does their patterning evolve into the jagged form you see in the pics in the thread I linked.

At this time I am actually pushing the limits regarding tank space. I keep checking the weather reports hoping it has become safe to set up temporary summer tanks outside (but under cover) to deal with things.

[amazonaquatics]

Very interesting information. There goes to show you that some Hypancistrus, you'll never know what they turn into (pattern wise) until they hit the adult stages.

I just started concentrating on breeding again after a long break and I just pulled L470 wigglers out of dads cave. Tanks a 20 long and it's kind of over crowded so I didn't want to take a chance of losing fry once they left dads cave. This is my first L470 spawn so I'm interested in seeing what pattern variations I get out of this batch of 16.

[TwoTankAmin]

I would also like to mention something here that probably belongs in my old L173b thread as much as here. I have had several spawns from mine and they have had some time to grow. So far none of my offspring suggest to me that they are L173. I have seen some unusual patterns but nothing that would lead me to believe they are actually morphs of 173 who should throw some offspring that look typical of that L number.

While Glaser has pretty good reputation, I am not sure they were correct in what they called their fish. This may have been the breeder or it could have been Glaser. I highly doubt it was the person who got them for me from Glaser.

But I will offer this caveat to other interested in this species. If you are acquiring them a younger stage of their development. unless you hare very experienced and highly educated in the appropriate areas, you will have no clue what you are being sold. In order to confirm that my F1 L173 were indeed that, it took two very well known experts from Europe to look at them and chat before i got confirmation from them, Even with this I will not be 100% certain for a bit longer as they are not old/big enough yet for that. The only way I can tell is when they hit that final pattern of jagged striping.