Some spawns and fry

[Jobro]

Now that my private matters cooled down and I got more time, I went to trigger my L134, L183 and L260 to spawn.

L134(3M/3F) and L260(2M/3F) share one tank, while L183(3M/4F) have a seperate tank.

I triggered the spawns mostly by doing actually nothing. I did a last waterchange somewhere around mid of December. All my tanks were pretty much on very soft(<100ppm) and slightly accidic water (PH6). Usually I do weekly 50% WC with very soft accidic water. But now I just stopped it.

I kept up my feeding routines as usual.
I did no tank maintenance whatsoever. Not filling up evaporated water etc. I really did nothing.

As it seems, I had one L183 and one L260 spawn around 8/13 days ago. Though I actually only knew about the L183 spawn back then.

Last weekend I did a big(~75%) waterchange with my very hard(800ppm, PH~7.5) tap water.

Right after or rather during the waterchange I had a L134 female sneak into a males cave. First, I thought she might have accidentaly taken the wrong cave with all the tank maintenance going on. This sometimes happens when plecos panic. They rush the next cave and hide there, not bothering about the rightfull owner of this cave. But a few hours later the male was sitting on a clutch of eggs. Too bad, the eggs were gone 2 days later. It was his first spawn. Not a good Daddy, yet I guess he chose a way too big cave for his own size.

Meanwhile the L183 male was dropping his eggs out of the cave every now and then and I picked them up as I could. It was the first spawn on this individual.
And after 2 days he ended up dropping his last eggs xD Looks like he needs some more experience, as well.

A few days after the waterchange I found an L260 male trapping a female in his cave. This male had spawns before, during last July (I didn't have time to raise the fry back then ). He is quite experienced and when the female left the cave the next morning, he didn't let me get a single glimpse inside his cave. He took a cave that fitted his size very well and was eagerly fending off any glances that I tried to make. So I moved him with his cave into a breeding box, just in case.

At this point I had about 20 L183 eggs, a lost batch of L134 eggs and a potential L260 spawn.

That's some pretty good action for me.

Now, yesterday the L134 male trapped the same female again and got another clutch of eggs this morning. It was again inside the oversized cave and it didn't look like he would be able to fend off the other L134 male or L260 male if they would come to steal his eggs. I didn't want to put him into the breeding box with the other L260 male. I don't want to see them kill each other in this little breeder. I also didn't want to risk losing the eggs again, because these were my first L134 spawns and I felt it would be easier to handle feeding routines on L183, L260 and L134 fry all together than having to do the routines over again in a few months. I knew two more L134 females were ready and waiting to spawn anyway, so he would get another chance at improving his skills soon enough.
So, I decided to steal his eggs and put them into an egg tumbler.

Now, I had about 20 L183 Larvae(thery hatched by now), a new clutch of L134 eggs and a potential L260 spawn.

But this evening curiosity took the better of me and I couldn't resist to know what was going on in the L260s cave. I "removed" him from his cave and found, that he did not have one spawn, but two. Five L260 babies were sitting inside the cave along a small batch of eggs. I counted 5 eggs and 3 empty shells.

I moved the L260 fry to the L183 fry and put the L260 eggs into the L134 egg tumbler.

Quite happy with the start of the new year, right now.

L183 Fry:

L183 Fry about 9 days after spawn

L260 Fry:

L260 Fry about 15 days after spawn

L260 Fry about 15 days after spawn

L260 Fry about 15 days after spawn

L134 Eggs and 5 L260 Eggs:

Egg Tumbler L134 and L260 eggs

My conclusions:
I had spawns of L183 and L260 before, both times, when I had very soft and accidic water but I did not have time to do tank maintenance. So the spawns went by almost unnoticed.
I did have no spawns with weekly waterchanges, though water params were the same as before and during the new spawns. What has changed was that I stopped doing WC.
I had L260 spawns, one before and one after the WC with hard water.
I had two L134 spawns after the WC with hard water.
I had one L183 spawn before the WC with hard water.

Now let's hope I don't mess up rising the fry now.

[Phreeflow]

Congrats!! Wow...it seems like fish rooms all over are exploding with activity. Maybe winter is the new spring?

It's intriguing that you were able to trigger a spawning with a hard water change as opposed to what most folks do with soft water and low tds. Seems we will never figure these fish out.

Congrats again and please keep us updated on the progress. BTW: dibs if you ever sell those L134

[stuby]

Congratulations on the spawns and very well done!! I'm sure you will do fine with the fry!

Chuck

[Jobro]

Congrats!! Wow...it seems like fish rooms all over are exploding with activity. Maybe winter is the new spring?

It's intriguing that you were able to trigger a spawning with a hard water change as opposed to what most folks do with soft water and low tds. Seems we will never figure these fish out.

Congrats again and please keep us updated on the progress. BTW: dibs if you ever sell those L134

I do most of my WC with rainwater. But the rainwater is around 4°C, which is pretty damn cold, during winter. So stimulating the dry season during winter actually helped me to bridge the cold months without needing a lot of waterchanges.

I went for hard water for two reasons: first, I don't have soft water in the right temperature right now.
second, a panaqolus breeder told me, he is doing the triggers like that and I wanted to give it a try, too.

I also think that it's sometimes not all about the quality of the water (soft or hard) but rather the change of environment (from soft to hard or vise versa/cold to hot and vise versa) that triggers spawns.

I think it also depends on the species. L183 are blackwater fish and I would expect them to stop breeding activites with all the hard water in there now. I will keep an eye on that and report back.

Congratulations on the spawns and very well done!! I'm sure you will do fine with the fry!

Chuck

Thank you, I'll try my best

[Phreeflow]

That's very interesting info about hard water triggering. Please do keep us updated!

[Jobro]

I did not have any further spawns, yet. At least none that I would have noticed.

The five L260 are doing great. But the five L260 eggs all fungused inside the egg tumbler, while only 1-3 of the L134 eggs fungused.
Same for the L183 fry. They are eating and pooping a lot.
The L134 fry just hatched and will take another week until they start eating, I guess.

[TwoTankAmin]

A couple of thoughts here. First, congrats on the spawns, After doing this for over a decade now seriously and having kept fish longer. I still get as excited as a kid who just got a big bag of candy every time I see a new spawn. I still remember the first swordtail fry I saw looking up at me from where it was hiding in the floating plants.

Hypans thrive on change, as do most other seasonal spawners. I once had a heater malfunctions raise water temps to 104F. It killed the discus, it killed the tetras and all the L450s survived and then spawned a few weeks later.

Many breeders believe that the spawning hormones that get released into tank water, because they are contained in a small volume, act to stimulate other fish to spawn. Using water from a tank with ongoing spawning to trigger fish in another tank is a trick I have heard used by angel and cory breeders. Since I keep breeding fish in species tanks and have never tried this, I cannot say for sure one way or another if if is effective. My hunch is it does work for some species.

I have also noticed over the years that the first spawn is the hardest to get. Once my plecos start spawning, they will keep at it for a while. I have noticed similar behavior from angels and discus.

[Linus_Cello]

Many breeders believe that the spawning hormones that get released into tank water, because they are contained in a small volume, act to stimulate other fish to spawn. Using water from a tank with ongoing spawning to trigger fish in another tank is a trick I have heard used by angel and cory breeders. Since I keep breeding fish in species tanks and have never tried this, I cannot say for sure one way or another if if is effective. My hunch is it does work for some species.

A variation on this theme; some keep Common bristlenoses in the tank that easily breed, and the Bn pheromones will trigger the other plecos in the tank to maybe breed.

[Phreeflow]

Many breeders believe that the spawning hormones that get released into tank water, because they are contained in a small volume, act to stimulate other fish to spawn. Using water from a tank with ongoing spawning to trigger fish in another tank is a trick I have heard used by angel and cory breeders. Since I keep breeding fish in species tanks and have never tried this, I cannot say for sure one way or another if if is effective. My hunch is it does work for some species.

A variation on this theme; some keep Common bristlenoses in the tank that easily breed, and the Bn pheromones will trigger the other plecos in the tank to maybe breed.

I used to use this trick when breeding discus and would try to induce or trigger reluctant pairs to breed by placing them in a larger tank with a proven pair and separating them with a mesh divider. There's no scientific evidence to prove if that did anything but sometimes it did get the other pair going. At least enough that I felt it made a difference, although it could've been some other variable.

But that's discus and I thought they were hard but these plecos are on another level. I did have the thought of raising a proven pair of bristlenose with my zebras to try and trigger a response with the hormones but never did out of fear that the much larger bristlenose would somehow hurt the zebras.

Anyone have thoughts on whether my fears are valid or unfounded? If I get a green light, I'll try throwing in a pair of BN's and report back

[TwoTankAmin]

I doubt a bn would really help as it is a different genus. The only reason to think the hormone thing might work is that we do know some farmed fish are induced to spawn using hormones. In nature the volume of water pretty much dilutes things so I don't know if hormones released there would have much effect, especially over any distance. In a tank conditions contain things and that bumps concentrations. Beyond these thoughts, I am lost.

But if I wanted to try moving water from a tank with spawning going on into to one in which I wanted to induce it, I would want to move water from the same genus and then, if possible, from the same general location. Just one person's opinion as always.

[Jobro]

In nature the volume of water pretty much dilutes things so I don't know if hormones released there would have much effect, especially over any distance.

I don't know about fish and less about plecos, but there are a lot of animals, that would find each other through scent/hormones during breeding time even though they might me miles and miles apart. I would not neglect effects of hormones used by fish in nature, yet. Pretty sure, a female pleco won't just check out all the caves in a riverbed randomly until she finds the chosen one. There could be some sort of hormone that would tell a female there is a male sitting and ready to go and or vice versa.

Mabye they just go for the "biggest&baddest" cave they can find and start looking from there. Quite possible as well. But I see a possibility of hormones playing a role there, too.

Now to get a little bit back to the topic.
I counted abot 25 L134 fry. 5 L260. 16 L183.

L134 fry 3 days after hatching

This L260 might not yet look like a L260, but you could guess it was a Hypans, at least.

L260, L183 and L134 fry

Tiny guy

L260 fry

The L183 are getting more and more miniatures of their parents. But they are hard to shoot in there. I will get you a better pic in the next few days.

[Jobro]

I lost two of the L183 fry, 1 yesterday evening, 1 this morning. They had round bellies. wouldn't know what was wrong with them

[Jobro]

A little update:

I lost one more L183 but it stopped afterwards, don't really know what was wrong with them.

some pictures for you guys

the lot of them :D

L260, L183 and L134 fry

the L134 are HUGE! way bigger than the ancistrus were at the same age.

3x L183 of the same batch, biggest was raised in breeder, mid was moved into breeder 10 days after hatching, smallest moved to breeder about 15 days after hatching

ancistrus seem to starve in my parents tank if left alone

little L183 look great :)

the L134 are really big, only about 11 days after hatching

[Jobro]

Here is a short video. Please excuse the reflexion of my fingers -.-

[Jobro]

Thought I would share this with everyone.

Quite enjoyable with sound and FullHD+

[bekateen]

Very impressive! Do you have enough babies?

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

Thank you Eric! Need to get more tank space up and running
Got another 50 L134 and 13 L260 fry coming... But still no Panaquolus fry

[Fundulopanchax76]

Isnt there too overcrowded ? And water seems a bit dirty ? Isnt dangerous for them ? White spots are L 201 ?

[b.reder]

Well done! Congrats -Barry

[Jobro]

Fundulopanchax,

Yes it is crowded. And I am a little concerned about that myself. I keep good track of them. I did not lose a single fish in this rearing tank, ever. There are also no bite markings or torn fins etc on any of them.

I am in the middle of moving tanks and prefer having them in this mature tank in a narrow space over putting them in an non-cycled tank with more space. I am pretty confident the tank could handle 3-4x the amount of fry. You don't see the whole tank there. It is just the rearing tank that is floating inside the bigger tank with constant water exchange. I would like to let the bigger ones (3.5cm+) out of the rearing tank, but since I am up and about to move the tank, it would mean catching every last one of them in a big tank for the moving part, so I refrained from letting them into the bigger tank for now.

Dirty Water is funny you ever seen water in the amazon throughout the seasons?
My fish are spawning in this "dirty" water so I don't see a problem there. Biological filtration is fine and running. Just lacks some mechanical filtration. Also you should watch till the end, the water clears up pretty quickly after they are settled back in. This was after maintenance (removing all shelters, siphoning dirt etc), that's why there is a lot of dirt being stirred up in the process.

Spotted ones are Hypancistrus Contradens, not L201.

Thanks Barry.

[TwoTankAmin]

Dirty is very relative. Dirty in our eyes vs. dirty in terms of natural fish habitats are definitely not the same.

If I have to skip some weekly water changes, the tanks I always choose to omit are ones holding Hypancistrus.

And for sure it is a lot easier to catch fry/juvies to be sold or traded when they are in a smaller tank

So little time and so many tanks. Since you can't get more time, you may as well get more tanks.

[bekateen]

You don't see the whole tank there. It is just the rearing tank that is floating inside the bigger tank with constant water exchange.

Fundulopanchax76, I think this is the key to answering your question (besides the other parts mentioned by Jobro and TTA that dirty water in the form of sediment/solids is not necessarily unsafe for fish): Yes this tank is crowded, but it's a smaller tank floating inside a larger tank. So water volume is much greater than it appears in the video, so water quality will be more stable.

Cheers, Eric

[Fundulopanchax76]

Yes i understand that if a small vessel is inside big tank everything is ok ! Just when i saw that cloudy water i thought that there is big quantity of organic matter, which follows breeding of bacterias, which later attack and kill fish. But i know difference between mechanical and chemical polution.

[Jobro]

I siphon out most of the organic matter on a daily to every second day basis, but while I am doing that, they panic and stir up lots of dirt and it is almost impossible to get that all out of the water column. And it also seems to be not needed. They seem to be pretty hardy in that regard. In the beginning I was pretty cautious as well. But they are by far not as weak or easy to get sickness as some people might make you believe. There is about 2 things that would kill pleco fry quickly. Pouring in really cold water and lack of O2. But as long as they get fresh, warm and oxygenated water with plenty of foods, it seems to be pretty easy after the first 1-2 weeks. Bigger amounts of poop seem to be no problem for them, at least in the short term. As debris eating species, I have suspicions, that fish poop might actually make up some part of their natural diet (to a little degree).

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I siphon out most of the organic matter on a daily to every second day basis, but while I am doing that, they panic and stir up lots of dirt and it is almost impossible to get that all out of the water column. And it also seems to be not needed. They seem to be pretty hardy in that regard. In the beginning I was pretty cautious as well. But they are by far not as weak or easy to get sickness as some people might make you believe. There is about 2 things that would kill pleco fry quickly. Pouring in really cold water and lack of O2. But as long as they get fresh, warm and oxygenated water with plenty of foods, it seems to be pretty easy after the first 1-2 weeks. Bigger amounts of poop seem to be no problem for them, at least in the short term. As debris eating species, I have suspicions, that fish poop might actually make up some part of their natural diet (to a little degree).

It is back to the visible debris being mainly composed of structural carbohydrates that contribute little bio-load. Scientists use BOD as metric, which "counts" proteins and sugars, but largely discounts woody debris and mulm.

This debris can cause problems if it gets into a canister filter, but that is because of the clogging and flow slowing that can occur and lead to the low oxygen problems @Jobro alludes to.

In a planted tank with substrate and a mattenfilter, it is unsightly, but it isn't going to compromise water quality.

There is a fuller description of the BOD concept in "Wood for tanks" (viewtopic.php?t=35930).

cheers Darrel