Sometimes Fishkeeping Sucks

[TwoTankAmin]

I was about to do maint. on the last tank in the room mext door. it was supposed to be the last tank i did last night but did not get to. I had just drained the first bucket via vac. and begun to rinse the media. I had a big fat snail from the tank and went to drop it into the the 50 gal. which holds about 60 amano shrimp and excess or algae covered plant. I notice shrimp laying all over, discolored and dead. All of them. This tank it the top tank of two and the 40 gal. under holds 24 zebra plecos for sale which were about to go out in one box from an offer I could not refuse. That tank had been cleaned right after the one above and from the same batch of changing water.

I turned on the light and saw a zebra out and not moving. A poke dislodged it and it float to the surface. When I began removing the rocks and wood more and more dead zebras floated up. All 24 are lost. These fish were there a with me for some time and just last week the 5 biggest went to a new home. The dead ones were all in the 2- 2.25 inch range.

I have no clue what went wrong. Other tanks cleaned over the weekend and before those two are all fine. Most of the equipment is shared between tanks. I use different method to empty and refill tanks using different pumps hoses and containers. The top tank received fertilizer, the bottom tank has no plants. The hoses and buckets were used to clean other tanks before these two. I am now scared to use any of it. I was just about to clean the loaned 173 tank.

The answer appears to be related to the return water in some way, but I cannot figure out what caused the problem. I have used the same well water going on 16 years. I do not know what equipment or wood and plants or sand may be contaminated. I have a backup drinking water hose. But replacing all the rest means a trip to home depot and replacing a 32 gal, 20 gal and 4 x 5 gal buckets. I assume my pumps are OK and I can rinse heck out of the easily.

Since, I cleaned other tanks earlier in the day, I doubt the problem is my well water. Something had ti have gotten contaminated somehow.

Bummed out to the max.

[MChambers]

I'm sure I speak for many others here in saying that you have our sympathy. We've all had similar experiences, at least if we've been keeping fish for any length of time.

I had a heater break and poison a bunch of fish last month. Thing is, I heard a funny sound and smelled an acrid smell, but I didn't figure out the cause until about 30 very cool fish were dead. I still get upset when I think about it.

[bekateen]

Sorry TTA. Yeah that's a bad story. Better luck once repaired.

Regards, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

I am trying an experiment to see if I can determine what killed the fish and shrimp. I am not certain, but snails may have survived.

Anyhow, I have put a piece of Poly-Filter into each tank. " Poly Filter Removes:

Harmful Organics
Toxic Ammonia and Nitrite
Heavy Metals
All Forms of Phosphate
Medications after Treatment

Poly-Filter turns color when removing medications. Aqua to Dark Blue: Copper or Copper Salts. Orange: Iron. Bright Red: Aluminum. Bright Yellow: Ammonia, Amines or Solvents. Dyes: Color of the solution when added i.e. Methylene Blue: Pale Blue. Malachite Green: Light Green. Tannins/Humic acid: Dark Brown. Organic Wastes: Light Tan progressing to Dark Brown."

Maybe I will get lucky and it will show a color.

ty guys- I lost my breeder 236s this past year as well due to a heater malfunction. What makes it all worse was I had a fender bender last Tuesday and dropped the car at the body shop this morning.

[Jobro]

This is really a sad situation. Feeling with you TTA,

Let's hope you can find the reason soon and avoid any further losses.
Maybe you had something on your fingers/hand? Some soap or any other chemicals? Or someone else used some chemicals in your house? Cleaners, anti-fungus, anti insects or the likes? Just some ideas.

[TwoTankAmin]

Basically none of the above was likely. I have been trying to come up with an explanation. I rinse out all changing containers before using them. I rinse media in tank water even though I never use dechlor since we have out own well. I always run water through the return hose to insure it gets rinsed before I use it. I do not put any additives into the changing water.

I just checked the pieces of PolyFilter- the one in the shrimp and plant tank is still white, the zebra tank one is slightly tan indicating some organic wastes which is to be expected. I plan to completely rinse all the buckets and cans and throw out the refill hose and replace it. I will then test the health of these things gradually with a holding tank and fish that did not cost an arm and a leg and see how things go.

My best guess is somehow I accidentally got something into the water which was highly toxic. I cannot imagine what or when, but this is the only thing that makes sense. yhe only other person in the hose is my brother and he is almost never in that bathroom which serves as the base of operations for water changes.

[TwoTankAmin]

Looking to confirm that any electrical fault there might be in the pump I put in the tank to remover water that might kill fish/shrimp in under 5 minutes of use I should be able to feel if I put my hand in the water. I am using the same pump to drain the zebra tank I used Sunday evening and I feel nothing when my hand is in the tank.

I can also confirm that a lot of the pond snails and assassin snails seem to have survived the debacle. I am trying not to have to throw out over $200 of driftwood and terra cotta caves by doing lots of rinsing outdoors.

[Shane]

TTA,
Two possibilities come immediately to mind, and yes, I have suffered the impact of both.
- Did you accidentally forget to hit those tanks with water conditioner after a water change?
- Did your water company happen to be flushing the city water supply on the same day you did water changes?
-Shane

[TwoTankAmin]

Shane- I have a private well. It is the same system that has fed this house since 1961. Because the water from the tap is over-saturated with CO2 and likely a bit deficient in oxygen, I use a system of buckets and big Rubbermaid garbage cans combined with 5 gal. buckets from Home Depot for return water. The water comes from the bathtub spigot into one of the 5 gals buckets. Into that goes the pump end of my return system and the water, at about 86C, is pumped into all the containers. Once they are all filled, the pump goes into the 32 gal. can and the water is circulated back into the can. I use a sprinkler head on the return so the water is being well oxygenated before it goes into tanks. As the water level in the 32 drops, I pour the water from the 5 gal. buckets into the 32. The return hose is a drinking water safe hose. All the fixtures are plastic.

I have been using this system for many years. The pumps I use are either Mag Drive or Beckett. I have used some of my containers for over a decade.

Here is the mystery-
- I cleaned 3 tanks using all the same things before doing a refill and then doing the 2 tanks that crashed. The most water I can set up is basically 69 or so gals. So the odds are good both sets of tanks had some of the same water sitting in the main cold and water heater tanks. I am very careful about contaminating things. I used nothing in the bathroom that day that would have gotten into the containers. I used my normal ferts in one of the death tanks and the other is not planted.

My cleaning buckets are 3 Rubbermaid square 2.5 gals. 2 of them I have had since my first tank, the 3rd was a replacement when the handle spur on the original one broke off. I use these to rinse out media in tank water, or to hold fish temporarily etc.

The snails survived whatever it was even though 60+ amano shrimp died.

I am baffled and unsure of what to do. I have cleaned the caves and slates, I have rinsed all the contained very well outside. I see nothing in any of the water, I smelled nothing either in the tanks or the stuff I cleaned. I hate to throw everything out because P have 5 Poret cubes and an AquaClear 300 gph with two sponges as filters. Both tanks have sand bottoms but under an inch deep. This is Carib Sea Torpedo beach which is not cheap and I would like to be able to keep.

If I add up the value of the sand, the wood, the caves and the filter media- we are talking about a few $100s at cost and likely 50% more due to price rises and my buying much of it on sale over the past 5 - 6 years. None of this accounts for the plants in the 50 either. They seem fine.

I am uncertain what happened. If the snails had died as well as the fish and shrimp, it would make more sense. My thinking is somehow something toxic got into the return water, but not something completely deadly since the snails and plants seem fine. It could not have been something airborne in the room as there were 3 more tanks there which were not affected. I am leaning towards the idea that I can clean at least the wood and other decor, the tanks, and maybe the sand. But I think the Porets and AC sponges have to go. Many thorough rinsings should clean out the culprit in the buckets and cans as well. I will replace the hose. it was cloase to needing it as it had lost its non-link function and I bought two when i got them years back. A spare is a good thing and it made the shipping free.


Any ideas from anybody are greatly appreciated here.

[mattlamm]

Damn I'm really sorry to hear this. Trying to think of what else could have caused it and was wondering, what if it wasn't contamination. Could it perhaps have been a big ph swing after the water change? What percent did you change and how quick did you add the water? If the starting ph in those 2 tanks was perhaps different to your other tanks for some reason, coupled with the fact that the inhabitants of both the death tanks are more sensitive to some of the other tanks, then perhaps that could be your answer?

[TwoTankAmin]

There is neither industry nor farming here. Over the years my well water has been fairly stable. The pH was 7.3 in 2001 when I set up my first tank and the GH was 6 and the KH 5 dg. Over the next 12 or so year these numbers changed minimally. The pH mover down to 7.0- 7.1 range and the Gh and KH each lost 1 dg. This was mostly the result of the population growth which meant the water from the aquifer had less time to sit and become mineralized. This is a very rocky area and when the water sat longer before being pumped out ot the ground, it would pick up a bit more stuff.

I also discoverd that when there were several days of really big rains the TDS which had dropped from about 106 ppm to 83 ppm over the first 12 years could drop as low as just under 60 ppm temporarily. But I have changed the TDS by a lot more than that when simulating dry and rainy seasons for zebras,

Plus I used two loads of water that day. The first was used on 3 tanks and the second on the two that crashed. It is almost impossible that there was something in the second that was not in the first and vice versa.

Basically the only thing in common in those two tanks was the use of the pump and Python hose I use to remove water and then the return water which has a different pump and uses drinking water quality hose. That hose is always flushed before it is used.

Jst to elimiante other issues not hit on. The water tanks are both years old, so they are not leaching anything new. The one other item in common between the two tanks is the 5 Poret foams were all powered bu the same pump. But I can rule out anything in the air getting pumped into the tanks because I have 3 other porets in two other tanks in that room which are powered by two other air pumps. Those tanks had no issues.

Basically, the problem must be related to those pumps, hoses or most likely the refill water. I jut cannot figure out the what or how.

My problem now is in trying to decide what equipment and tank contents can be made safe to continue using. I will replace the return hose. I can rinse well all the buckets and cans as well as the rock/slate and caves. I m most worried about the drift wood and sand. I am rinsing heck out of the wood, then sun drying it and I will repeat this a few times.

[naturalart]

Couple thoughts:
You didn't mention that you ran test on any of the water?
Do you cover your water holding and pretreatment system?
And being that you're trying not to assume anything, did you ever talk too your brother directly concerning 'the day of' or prior?
Are there any metal pipes/parts in your well system, from sump too house?

It sounds like your well is pretty stable, but I think you already know the well is a major unknown in your 'equation'. Things happen underground that we don't have a clue about.
Based on the kind of money you lost, it may be an idea to have some physical samples sent too a ichthyologist/toxicologist, etc.?
I would make sure everything involved in those waterchanges goes bone dry, before running test with guppies and the like for a few months.

Sorry for your lose. I've been there also, just not with zebras, jeez! I hope you find your answer.

[MarlonnekeW]

I'm really sorry to read about your problems. Do you maybe own a dog or cat and did you recently treat them with spot-on flea and tick drops? This stuff has the nasty characteristic that it gets sort of absorbed into your skin, when you come into contact with it. Washing your hands doesn't really help to get it off, but it can get into the aquarium when you do maintenance. I've experienced that it's very toxic and deadly for shrimps. Maybe certain fish species will be sensitive to it as well.

[Jobro]

I'm really sorry to read about your problems. Do you maybe own a dog or cat and did you recently treat them with spot-on flea and tick drops? This stuff has the nasty characteristic that it gets sort of absorbed into your skin, when you come into contact with it. Washing your hands doesn't really help to get it off, but it can get into the aquarium when you do maintenance. I've experienced that it's very toxic and deadly for shrimps. Maybe certain fish species will be sensitive to it as well.

somethink like this would be the most probable cause in my eyes, as well.

I can't imagine anything being in the well water and only affecting two of all your tanks. You would have had way more losses in more tanks if that was the case.

If those tanks share the same air pump, and others don't, I would look into that air pump first.

Do you have some Bristlenose babies or guppies to make tests? (yes, I know this sounds kind of cruel...)

[TwoTankAmin]

No pets.

Common air pump running 5 Poret cubes on the two tanks. But, there are other air pumps in that room which power 2 more Porets and an ATI sponge. That would eliminate something airborne being sucked into the air pump and then blown into the tanks but only affecting 1/2 of the air powered tanks. There is nothing inside an air pump that should get into a tank. Moreover, the air pump for the two death tans feeds a 6 valve manifold which each has its own flow control. I doubt anything solid could go through that.

When I clean tanks I have my hands in the water off and on. Any electrical issue I should have felt, the same for temperature.

Edit: Fish keeping for me has always had yin and yang aspect to it. I was feeding the tanks to night and discovered an F3 236 on eggs.

[Taratron]

I'd like to offer condolences too. Last Thanksgiving I came down with velvet and lost over 100 bristlenose. I won't go into details about how much I spent on medications and heaters (how many times I tripped the breakers) but it was in the mid to high triple digits. I did lose a few other fish at the same time, either because of the velvet or some other outbreak that couldn't get a firm hold with the other parasite around.

[TwoTankAmin]

Just a quick update.

I have broken down the 40 gal. tank which held the zebras. Wood, rocks, heater, and filter have been rinsed and dried a few times, then bleached and rinsed and dried. All water containers have been rinsed and dried multiple times and some have been wiped as well. I will not bleach wood as it will cause it to break down. I will also rinse the sand and bleach it as well etc. before allowing it back into use. I put a new refill hose, drinking water safe, into use.

On the 50 gal. with all dead amanos I have only done a water change. The assassin snails in that tank are still fine as are all the plants. I will do a couple more water changes and then test it with a few cheap fish as i want to keep the contents of that tank for reuse elsewhere.

I have done 5 water changes on other tanks in the main house as of yesterday and all tanks appear fine. I did all the water changes etc. on the fish space tanks and they are all fine. I picked all tanks with the least valuable fish to clean first. Today I will be working on the tanks with the expensive fish.

I can say with reasonable certainty that the issue was/is not with tap water. I doubt it was with any of the containers or pumps. That still leaves human error as the only potential explanation. I cannot put my finger on what I might have done wrong or when.

[JamesFish]

I'm sorry to hear you have had issues nobody likes to lose fish and on that scale with prized species is very sad. I hope your kit is good to use again. I recently tried boiling some of mine to make sure it was safe and it melted some of it so would not advise boiling anything.

[TwoTankAmin]

Just a fast follow-up-

- I have not figured out what got them. best guess is something toxic which will not persist if things are well cleaned.
- The zebra tank is empty.
- The wood has been through a couple of rinse and dry cycles but has not been used elsewhere yet.
- The rocks, slates and caves have been rinsed and dried a few times including once in a bleach solution. I have begun using them again with no issues.
- I was told that assassins can seal up which might explain why they lived. They are still fine. So are the plants in that tank.
- I will get some barbs I am willing to add to other tanks to test the one tank still going with plants and snails.

On the plus side I did the first fry hunt in ages in my long standing zebra breeding tank. I pulled 5 offspring in the 1.5+ inch range and then 10 in the 1 to 1.25 inch range (TL). They are parked in circulating traps and will likely go into a 15 gal. pending being sold down the road. I left 13 fish- 9 adults and 4 sub-adults in the tank and have about 18-20 others in a 75 gal.

[naturalart]

good to hear youre moving past that tragedy. These types of experiences can make us better.

[TwoTankAmin]

I don't know if I am just getting too old or I am sailing under a curse (or both). The new growout tank I was setting up for the above 15 zebras did not cycle as fast as I thought it would, I needed a 3rd day. Meanwhile I was feeding the fish in the traps. I failed to check for uneaten food and to remove it and the result is I killed 2 off the larger zebras from mushy rotting piles of food. I moved all the rest yesterday. To make sure I am feeling really stupid, when I cleaned the 75 gal zebra tank yesterday, a dead male was flushed out from under cover. It was clear it had been in a big fight. So that one was only indirectly my fault because I had added 6 new fish to that tank about 6 weeks back. I figured since they were not spawning it was OK to do. Guess not.

About 7 years ago maybe a bit more when I was having way more success with fish than I deserved based on experience, I used to joke in a fish chat that I hoped I was not going to turn out like that old biblical tale about the 7 fat years followed by the 7 lean years. I figured I was in those fat 7. Over the past few years it has been clear that i had transitioned the the lean years. I had 18 months of toxic bags killing fish before I figured it out. Over the last few years I have had a lot of losses.

The thing about all this I am hoping I am just about at the end of the 7 lean years. The problem is I do not recall there being anything in the story about what happens after the 7 bad years? I would really like for my remaining few years as an active fish nut to be good ones.

[naturalart]

Don't know that I go through cycles but what I've found is that weather its good times or bad, for me its a combination of positive attitude, love for the 'hobby' and knowing that I am no where near a equal substitute for nature (humility), that gets me through the loses.

[JamesFish]

Well the thing I have found to allot lower expense is the more you try to fit it the more it back fires.

I bought a new substrate emptied tank filled it followed instructions added first fish a Dora after 3 days. First day fine. Second added little flake 5 bits nothing the fish wouldn't find. Morning white tank remember it warned might cloud for a few hours so went off to work. Returned home clear tank killer snail up front of glass. Dead Dora at the top gutted. Left a few days added a female fighter fine 4 days later added a Cory as can check on every few hours. Can only guess he had a busy night disturbed the new substrate and caused such a big bacteria bloom it wasn't able to cope. So sad as spotted Dora are so pretty.

Perhaps with experience you push harder and things push back? Some of it is also bad luck. More kit you have and use the more likely it will be bad or fail.