Mystery Chaetostoma, impulse buy at PetSmart

[Jobro]

Don't let it pull you down too much, Eric. It's most likely that they were in bad/terminal conditions when you got them. Let's hope the rest will get through from here on.

[N0body Of The Goat]

You are having a rough run in with the Chaetostoma in quarantine, for sure.

Once you get them eating, i would almost place them in the same "hard as nails" pigeon hole as many Synodontis, I've lost 3 from 8 over the last six years and everyone that died failed to recognise hobby food and sadly died after a month.

[bekateen]

O...M...G! Now they're getting Ich! This is unbelievable!!!

This is not fair to these poor fish (and it's not easy on my nerves). But it is why God created quarantine tanks.

Can Chaetostoma handle any heat to treat this? The tank is currently unheated at about 70-75F; I could add a heater for a few days and bring it up to 78F, but it seems like even this minor increase in temperature would be more stress on the fish than it's worth. Can they handle salt? What about at half strength?

Until I can get some feedback from you folks, I'm applying Tetra "Ick Guard" full strength (1 tablet per 10 gal). I see that it's active ingredients are Victoria green and acriflavine.

Hopefully I caught it in time and the fish can survive this.

Cheers, Eric

P.S. What makes this such a bummer (besides the obvious - that the fish have Ich) is that I was starting to feel like the death of my last fish, with no new fungal infections among the other fish, signified something of a turning point, offering hope that the remaining fish were strong enough to make it. Hrumphh!

[francoisMtl]

Hi Eric,
Got ick once in a tank with a trio of rubberlips pleco possibly L187b.
Did treat with API ick cure powder (Nitrofurazone and Malachite green) half dose, increase temperature to 28-30 Celsius, and lower water level so power head filters were blowing and splashing water to the surface for maximum aeration.
All three fishes survived.
During summers my tank can go for 2-3 days near the 30 celsius and again they survive to this treatment which goes for once to three times each summer (no air conditionning).
I do not know how it may affect their lifespan... They were in good shape and eating well, I have them since several year, so newly import fishes may react differently.
Good luck,
Francois

[N0body Of The Goat]

I would be inclined to go down the salt route (1-3g per litre, gradually added over a day or so) with meds (I use Esha Exit), as at least Chaetostoma formosae and dorsale live in quite hard and alkaline water IIRC, with just a moderate heat increase to ~25C plus plenty of water surface movement.

[Jobro]

I'm working with Esha Exit as well. None of my plecos had trouble with it - but again I have no rubberlips.

[bekateen]

Thanks for the advice folks. That seems very helpful. RE: Esha EXIT, I've never seen it for sale around here, so I may have to mail order it. I'd like to know the active ingredients, in case it's similar to other products I already have. I couldn't find the info on the Esha EXIT website, but I found this on PFK:

The ingredients for Esha Exit are:
Diaminoacridine 6.3 mg, Veride Malachitum 0.31 mg, Methylrosanilinii chloridum
0.79 mg, Methylthioninii chloridum 3.98 mg ad Aqua.

In english I believe thats basically
Acridine
Malachite Green
Meth. Violet (http://www.fagron.com/download/Produ...0Materials.pdf)
Meth. Blue (http://environmentalchemistry.com/yo...ne%A0Blue.html)

No copper by the looks of it.

If you have the bottle, can you please check the label and confirm this is correct?

Thanks, Eric

[bekateen]

Here's a fish with just a little ich (if there is such a thing). I can only find 3 of 6 rubberlips, so I don't know their condition. At least their carcasses aren't floating around the tank.

[Jobro]

Too bad my bottle is in German

This last one looks pretty neat I think. Some day I might get a cold mountain river tank as well

[bekateen]

Thanks, Jobro. I can figure out the German.

On the Catfish study Group Facebook page, it was suggested I get a medicine called Proform C. It has a great reputation apparently, and you can simultaneously add a second medicine, praziquantel which gets other kinds of parasites.
Cheers!

[N0body Of The Goat]

Found my bottle of Exit in the garage, but it has no composition info on it, just dosage. Can only guess it might be on the folded sheet, which is not with my bottle, sorry!

[bekateen]

Thanks guys for your input.

Here are the results, German to English (and yes, it confirms the label info reprinted from PFK):

• Methylthioniumchlorid = Methylene blue
• Ethacridinlactat = Acridine = Rivanol
• Malachitgrunoxalal = Malachite green oxalate = Malachite green
• Methylrosaniliniumchlorid = Methyl violet = Crystal violet = Gentian violet

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Lost another, this time to ich. Tank was being treated with Rid Ich Plus today, after 2-3 days of the Tetra "Ick Guard." Looking at local stores for Proform C.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

And another died. I can't ever recall a time that I've had so many fish die in quarantine due to disease or starvation (unable to feed enough). I had a lot of fish die in quarantine once before after a bout of ich, but they had been cured of the ich and died when their aquarium filter/aeration clogged after the salt treatment killed the plants in the tank, which caused the clog. But never where the fish actually died of disease. In total, I bought nine rubberlips, and now I'm down to four. Not surprisingly, the two common BN juvies which I bought at the same time from the same store tank (not recognizing them for their common identity) are in the same quarantine and so far are absolutely ich-free, as far as is visible externally (not ignoring the prospect of gill and mouth infestation).

No matter, moving forward, still four I can try to save. I haven't gotten Proform C yet, so I'm using the Rid Ich Plus max dose (treat every 12 hours instead of every 24), adding the salt (tonight, 1/4 strength, tomorrow up to 1/2 strength) and adding some heat (up to 78F). I suppose if the ich doesn't kill them, the therapy might.

[jac]

I'm sorry to read the fish are having such difficulty in surviving...
I lost my entire group of Apithanos to Itch two weeks ago It's heartbreaking and not much you can do about it..
I hope the others will survive, if not, at least you tried! Fingers crossed!

[bekateen]

Thanks, Jac. I remember your loss. That was heartbreaking. Better days are ahead, of that I'm confident.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

Sorry to hear about your loss

I don't think Ich can kill your plecos that fast. I think they were in really bad condition when you got them and might have died rather of starvation and bad treatment during import/transport/at the LFS and the ich + treatment might only be another stress factor speeding it up.

The visible part of the Ich should be gone after 1-2 days of treatment, shouldn't it?

[bekateen]

Two or three more died last night and today - I've lost count now. I've got only one left of the original nine. Today I picked up potassium permanganate and I dosed the tank with that. Also managed to find one bottle of PraziPro for internal parasites. But I'll wait to use that until I know the fish survives the ich.

Also found four more C. dorsale in the recent shipments at the same three PetSmart stores which provided the first. Call me a fool but I bought them. They will go into a separate quarantine tank and hopefully, with the lessons I learned from the last group, this time we can avoid all the complications. Regarding the quantity of four, this is half of the total of nine I found two weeks ago. So the rate of mixed by-catch appears to vary a bit from shipment to shipment, no real surprise there.

Better luck this time, right?

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

Yeah, best luck for you and the plecos, Eric!

[bekateen]

Four different medicines, and still the ich persists:

1) Tetra "Ick Guard"
2) Kordon Rid Ick Plus
3) Potassium permanganate
4) Methylene blue in aquarium as long-term bath (3ppm)

This is one sick fish and it's only getting worse. As a last ditch effort, I'm giving it a 2-minute dip in concentrated methylene blue (100ppm, 33x stronger than the tank bath), following a protocol in a link posted elsewhere by TTA).

Prayers appreciated.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Here we go: 2 ml methylene blue in 16 oz conditioned water in a plastic container. If my math is right, this yields a 100ppm dip bath. NOTE: The procedure I'm following (100ppm dip for 2 min) is much more extreme than the procedure recommended on the label of the Kordon methylene blue product (50ppm for 20 sec). My source is the paper referenced in another thread. Here is the link to the paper: http://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893 ... review.pdf).

Just to be clear, I'm choosing this therapy on my own, not based upon the recommendation or endorsement of any member on this site. If it fails, it's no one's failing but my own (not to mention the extremely intractable ich my poor fish is fighting).

P.S., after all this, the two common BNs in the same tank STILL show no outward signs of ich!

[bekateen]

Capture the patient out of the QT tank, then into the dip for two minutes. After the dip, straight back in the tank. I did a 75% water change then added a fresh dose of the dilute methylene blue (3ppm, as recommended on the label) to try to kill or knock down at least any ich still in the gravel.

[Jobro]

This is the most serious case of ich I have ever seen. I really can't understand how the Ich can be so persistent. I had it twice and it vanished within 2-3 days after I started treatment. Not sure if you even have a case of Ich or if this is something else.

[bekateen]

The last rubberlip died about four hours ago. Nine fish, nine dead. Indeed that was a devastating outcome. And yes the ich was really bad and persistent, although I have a few conflicting observations which indicate the ich wasn't totally to blame:
1) Four rubberlips died before the visible ich outbreak (although they may have had ich on their gills or in their mouths already).
2) The potassium permanganate was seemingly completely ineffective, and it's supposed to be very effective. Maybe it was neutralized with lightning speed by the presence of a piece of wood in the tank, I don't know. But even adding more hourly couldn't keep the water pink for at least four hours, and the snails didn't die in the tank (the potassium permanganate should have killed them also).
3) The two common BNs which I bought at the same time are unaffected. I haven't seen a single ich spot on either one of them.

So I can only conclude that (1) the lack of feeding, or insufficiency of it, considerably weakened the rubberlips but not the BNs, which fed with no trouble, and (2) all the different ich therapies, including the salt and the heat, may have contributed to the stress and weakness of the fish.

I still have the other four new rubberlips in separate quarantine. Let's see if they do better.

Cheers, Eric

[NCE12940]

That is really devastating! And I've never seen ich that bad either; really horrendous looking.

[bekateen]

No better luck with this second batch. One by one they dropped off. Never saw them eat. Either it's the quality of the fish at PetSmart, or the conditions in my tanks just aren't suitable, in spite of my best efforts (or both).

For now, this needs to be the end of this rubberlip chapter for me. As much as I like the C. dorsale, and although I want to keep Chaetostoma, this just isn't working and I don't want to risk having any more die on me, or risk killing any myself (since I'm not certain of the causes of death). If in the future I have different setups or alternative sources for the fish (not a chain store), I may try again. But for now, I know I'm good with Panaqolus and a few Hypans (and corys), so I'll focus on them. Besides, in just over a month, I'm planning a new tank, 55-75gal, for a bunch of Panaqolus, so I'll get ready for them.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

Sad to hear about more losses on your side Eric.
We all feel with you. Don't get too discouraged. When plecos die within days, it's very likely you have either intoxicated water or the fish were in really bad shape when you got them. Since your other plecos are fine, the water should not be the problem.

I think it would be best to get any future Chaetostoma (if you ever decide to try again) from an importer, so you can pick them up right after shipping and have better chances of getting healthy/eating fish.

[N0body Of The Goat]

Sorry this venture has ended in 13 deaths, given how quick they died, I can only suspect they were in very bad shape already when you rescued them from the store(s).