Blackwater stocking advice

[matt davidson]

Hi everyone,

I'm in the process of finishing off the stand for a new tank, and trying to figure out how to stock it- I was hoping you guys could offer some advice.
The tank itself is 48x24x24 (around 400 litres) and I plan on running it as a blackwater setup with low pH and hardness. pH will be maintained using peat pellets and possibly a sphagnum moss peat substrate (tap water around me is pretty neutral with medium hardness). I'm trying to be as biotope faithful as possible (within reason of course).

At the moment I'm having a really hard time deciding on whether to go with an Asian or South American biotope(ish). On the Asian side I am super tempted to build the stocking around a large shoal of Hyalobagrus flavus or a medium shoal of Mystus bimaculatus, but not really sure what else to stock the tank with. Probably a shoal of rasboras (harlequins) or danios? having a hard time coming up with other options, especially species that occupy the bottom of the tank.

On the South American side I've not managed to find anything similar to the two species above (i.e. a small shoaling mid/upper water catfish)- any ideas for a SA analogue? Other than that I was thinking a large shoal of Neon or Cardinal tetras (just think they look awesome in blackwater), probably a group of Corydoras metae for the substrate, some dwarf cichlids (rams, apistogramma etc) and maybe a plec or banjo species for the floor.

I'm currently tying my brain up in knots trying to figure this out, so any advice you guys can give would be much appreciated!

[catfishchaos]

For bottom dwelling asian species that don't get massive you should look in to the Erethistes group. I have 3

Erethistes jerdoni

and they are splendid but minuscule, there are larger members of the family (all still very small, I believe the largest is 2.5 inches).

Mid water black water south american is a little out of my league, I'm not sure about "black water" per say but it might be worth looking into the tatia and centromochlus pages however you should note they only dwell on the surface to feed... I talked a lot about a black water set up for

Tatia musaica

in this thread and all though not many catfish ideas it has some good stuff tucked in there. The cardinals would be pretty happy in black water as well as rams or apistos, I would look into the checkerboard cichlids (Dicrossus i think...) very cool and underrated species in my opinion.

With that said in my biased opinion I would go for the asian set up (mainly because 90% of my set ups are amazon) but the variety of rasbora and danio for dithers is outstanding once you start looking with some real gems out there. Also if you wanted to make a planted take most of the nicer plants (in my opinion) tend to be from that side of the world. As for bottom dwellers in that set up

Pseudomystus leiacanthus

or congeners might be interesting to look into...

Here is the thread: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=42018

[TwoTankAmin]

I only run one stained tank. I use ro/di water to insure a steady and stable pH and TDS level. I use a lot of the things you mention except peat and I maintain control of the parameters bt pretreat my changing water. This usually includes the addition of some amount of muriatic acid. I also run a c3-way continuous monitor on the tank to measure conductivity/TDS, Temperature AND pH.

That said, the tank holds wild caught Altum angels, rummy nose tetras and H. contradens. The latter is found in some of the same rivers as Altums, but not necessarily in similar locations as altums.

[bekateen]

This usually includes the addition of some amount of muriatic acid.

TTA, you use muriatic acid instead of sulfuric acid? I would have thought the extra Cl- is bad for the fish based on what I've read in the past. Aren't "pH down" products usually sulfur based?

Cheers, Eric

[KungFish]

I currently have

Tatia sp(2)

,

Tatia dunni

, and some tiny juveniles of some intermedia-complex Tatia in my 65g blackwater tank (well blackwater only in look, the PH and hardness are neutral, hard to overcome water coming from a limestone aquifer).

[TwoTankAmin]

eric, the amount I need to use is minimal. I use an eye dropper to dose it in the changing water. My guess is I am adding about 1 ml or less. Between water changes the pH tends to inch up towards 6.5. Depending on what the tank pH reads, I lower the already 50/50 mix of my ro/di and my tap which is 7.0 and 83 ppm TDS. I try to have the replacement water at about 5.5 to 5.6 pH and TDS in the 50s ppm. The tank is a 55 gal.

While they are not catfish, some Geos live in black water. Here is a video of an expedition to collect altums from the Rio Atabapo and it shows a number of other species that live there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duvFEPwa ... Kg&index=7

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The tank itself is 48x24x24 (around 400 litres) and I plan on running it as a blackwater setup with low pH and hardness. pH will be maintained using peat pellets and possibly a sphagnum moss peat substrate (tap water around me is pretty neutral with medium hardness). I'm trying to be as biotope faithful as possible (within reason of course).

I see you are on Anglesey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey), could you collect rain-water?

The problem is that if you have hard tap water you need to constantly supply new sphagnum peat/sphagnum moss to keep softening the water via ion exchange.

Because Sphagnum moss and sphagnum moss peat are harvested from rain-fed peat bogs ("ombrotrophic mires") all the cation exchange sites are filled with protons (H+ ions), which are exchanged for other cations according to the lyotropic series.

Another problem is that there are very few intact peat bogs left in the UK.

Sphagnum mosses are very efficient at extracting other cations, and can produce a "sphagnum bog" where few other species can survive because of the non-availability of other cations. The figure for intact peat bogs in the UK is about 2% of the exchange sites have monovalent cations (other than H+) and a slightly higher percentage have multivalent cations retained, but you are still talking about over 90% of the exchange sites having a H+ ion present.



cheers Darrel

[Mol_PMB]

For a shoal of small friendly cichlids, Dicrossus filamentosus are ideal, or for medium-sized ones Biotodoma cupido. Keep at least 6 of each.
I had Dicrossus and Farlowellas spawning concurrently in my blackwater tank (pH about 4.5) and good survival rates from both.

[matt davidson]

Thanks for the comments everyone- some very interesting food for thought!

Regarding water chemistry, I've heard peat pellets (regularly replaced) in an external filter can be used to control pH and hardness- is this the case? The sphagnum moss peat substrate was for look more than anything else. Otherwise I'm guessing moving to an RO/tap water mix might be best? An RO filter is an expense I'd like to avoid for now though. Re. rainwater, I'd have to check what the chemistry is for it. Its definitely a possibility but I'd rather not rely on it as, although we get more than our fair share of rain, it can be a bit unpredictable.

Stocking wise I'm quite limited as to what's available around here. T. musaica would be incredible, but they're not any import lists even vaguely nearby. Erethistes jerdoni again look very interesting, but unlikely to be available. Will definitely do some more research on them though.

Given the limited stock available, I'm wondering if it's worth scrapping the "biotope" idea. Would there be any reason not to combine Asian and South American species into a generic "blackwater pool" environment with soft water at around pH 6.5? The biologist in me finds the idea offensive, but it might end up being the nicer, more complete display in the end.

Thanks again,
Matt

[TwoTankAmin]

My experience has been ro or ro/di and what then needs to be added to this are essential for lowering pH and keeping it fairly stable through water changes. I do use catappas and alder cones, but these are more like helpers than prime movers. Also many fish eat the decomposing leaves while other hide or spawn in leaf litter. But none of these items will give me the level of parameter consistency and control I feel is required.

I found that in order to gain this control I had to purchase a continuous monitor for Temp./pH/conductivity-TDS. When I batch replacement water I move the probes from the tank to the mixing can. I tried using a pH tester which had to be stored in solution etc., but they were not really reliable. So i bit the bullet. i tried some less pricey Chinese stuff before I finally spent about $250 to get an OK unit.

As I am batching the water I can see the effect of whatever I add. A few drops of acid i can see lowering the pH and slightly raising the TDS. I may also see a tiny bump in pH and TDS when I add the brewed rooibos tea. I must confess at times I feel like a mad scientist from the films of yore.

From the standpoint of how this has worked relative to plecos, I added two of the H. contradens born in my breeder tank to the altum tank when the plecos were juveniles. I had no idea how they might fare, but I wanted to see if they could thrive in the tank. That was a couple of years ago. Both are still fine today.

[racoll]

You'll need to be careful as to what you consider blackwater species. Several of the fishes mentioned already such as danios, rams,

Erethistes

,

Tatia musaica

(at least the more attractive commonly available ones pictured in the clog), etc are not blackwater fishes, and some are even whitewater.

In my experience exact pH is not important. Just change the water regularly, and all will be good. Blackwater fishes are perfectly happy provided the water has very low hardness. If you can't provide RO water or rainwater, then I would not consider the project.

Additionally, filling the tank with peat will also create an oxygen demand that may also limit what you can keep. You'll just need a few alder cones and come bogwood to get the black look.

I would go for a nice mix of

Hyalobagrus flavus

and

Trigonostigma hengeli

[TwoTankAmin]

I would take it a step further. You can get a really pretty tea stained look using rooibos tea. It will not lower the pH, in fact it may actually boost it by.1 for some. It has a lot of beneficial properties as well. If all I wanted was to stain the water with minimal affect on other parameters, I would just use it.

I have always found peat to be messy. I have it and rarely use it. However, I would suggest creating a concentrate:

Peat moss softens water and reduces its hardness (GH). The most effective way to soften water via peat is to aerate water for 1-2 weeks in a bucket containing peat moss. For example, get a (plastic) bucket of the appropriate size. Then, get a large quantity of peat (a gallon or more), boil it (so that it sinks), stuff it in a pillow case, and place it in the water bucket. Use an air pump to aerate it. In 1-2 weeks, the water will be softer and more acidic. Use this aged water when making partial water changes on your tank.

from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html#altering

You need only add enough to get the color you want as opposed to having a big effect on the parameters.

(Note I use rooibos and catappa leaf in the tank and alder cones in a filter, as well as 50% ro/di water on the one tank I do stain.)

[matt davidson]

Hi guys,

Thanks again for all the advice- sorry for the lack of replies, been super busy and doing lots of research.
From what I've read on here and found out elsewhere by far the best bet for getting the water chemistry sorted will be from using RO water. Then using a combination of leaf litter, alder cones (in a canister filter compartment) and possibly rooibos tea or commercial blackwater extract for the colouring. I'm in the process of sourcing an RO filter, so should have that here before long.

The tank itself is only just about ready for water, and I’ll be cycling from scratch (no established tanks to steal media from). This means I’ll have plenty of time to play around with water chemistry to get the right balance before any fish go in.
After searching high and low I’ve managed to find suppliers of both Mystus bimaculatus and Hyalobagrus flavus, so it looks like I’m going to try for a Sumatran peat bog “biotope”. Stocking wise I’m thinking:
2- spot catfish (Mystus bimaculatus)
Harlequin rasboras (Trigonostigma heteromorpha)
Pearl Gourami (Trichopodus leerii)

The only species I’m dead set on is the Mystus, so if anyone has any advice for any other compatible species from the same sort of environment, I’d greatly appreciate it. I’d also love some advice on stocking numbers. From what I’ve heard the Mystus want to be in a group of at least 6? And the Gourami’s limited to a single male- do these guys do best with harems of multiple females?

Finally any advice on what sort of substrate would be found in this sort of environment? I’m torn between using play sand or going with ADA Amazonia aquasoil to try and mimic the peaty, organic look. Either way there will be a fair bit of leaf litter on top of this.

Thanks again for all the help,

Matt