Is aquarium salt safe for BNs

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 01 Apr 2016, 00:01

Tried a forum search. I want to know if aquarium salt is safe for ABNs or not. Have a whitespot outbreak now ABNs are badly affected- rapid breathing, not eating and obviously spots which wasn't there this morning. I removed seriously affected fish to isolation to prevent spread, and the plants syphoned out tank, upped temp -and aeration drastically, a large WC, then started treatment with protozin. Because of the deterioration I have API aquarium salt but is it safe to use it or not.
Params.
Temp 30
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrate 30
PH 7.3
Last fish tetras that cleared QT but introduced whitespot-now removed.
Healthy pair of mustard spots-can be moved if salt suitable for ABNs.
ABNs

KSquared · Post by **KSquared** » 02 Apr 2016, 03:24

I don't know if it's supposed to be safe or not, but I had an outbreak in my community tank which has an two bn and a clown pleco so I upped the temp to around 83/84 and added a tbsp. of aquarium salt/5gal of water, not knowing all the differences with the fish... Treated the ich for 6 days (dosing every 48hrs). On the 7th day changed the water 50% and added a charcoal filter, waited 24hrs another 50% water change and filter changes.. and the plecos all still seem happy and healthy. That was over a month ago now and my BNs are really growing fast. So I would say if they are otherwise healthy, they should be ok. But I would definitely defer to more experienced opinions on here. I may have (or my fish anyway) just got really lucky. Good luck.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 02 Apr 2016, 08:54

The general consensus is plecos and salt is a bad thing, not knowing for sure doesn't make it easy to decide to use it. Unfortunatly they have deteriorated very badly hit by it, despite all treatment and other measures I put in practice. Now I'm not even sure they will survive.

. So if anyone else can confirm if salt is safe I'd really appreciate it.
.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 02 Apr 2016, 17:08

If anyone can help me at all. Please do, it looks like they aren't going to survive buy I'm doing my best. I've been treating them with a product called water life white spot and fungus. Protozin. Instructions are to dose day 123&6 I put the third dose in this morning. I've been told using a UV sterilizer with protozin renders it ineffective. But I'm on the two three days break before next dose on day 6. I've been given a UV sterilizer. Could using it during the break help?

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 03 Apr 2016, 00:07

So I've established that using the UV isn't the best way forward. Overnight I'm warming a bare bottom tank up to 30 Celsius and attempting to match params. I've used entirely new water. And wood. If in the morning there is no improvement. I will take the necessary bare minimum from the current tank having soaked in boiling water the filter casings (obviously not sponges) and the caves. I will drip acclimate the ABNs in a well filtered aerarated container over a hour or two will then transfer them by net into the new tank. Best I can do here in order to save them. Obviously will continue treatment.

VelcroWY · Post by **VelcroWY** » 03 Apr 2016, 23:49

Generally speaking; salt & bottom dwellers don't work together. Corydoras & their cousins seem to be unable to tolerate the salt. Plecostamus & their cousins seem to be able to tolerate it in small amounts if they are very healthy - but based on my experience, I wouldn't bet a favorite fish on it.

Loaches are in the same category as catfish. Some don't tolerate salt at all. Some might tolerate a little, but I wouldn't bet on it.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 06 Apr 2016, 18:18

Still working on bringing the outbreak under control. I have lost one of the ABNS. One is still in a touch and go condition. Not looking good for this one. My Pair don't appear to be affected, no spots at all but flicking against decor. Iseparated these into a tank of their own. From the worst affected two of witch I lost one. I'm now treating both tanks with esha exit having ran a filter with carbon for 24 hrs and a large WC to clear the remaining protozin. Seems I'm dealing with a particularly nasty strain here.

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 07 Apr 2016, 01:15

KSquared wrote

I don't know if it's supposed to be safe or not, but I had an outbreak in my community tank which has an two bn and a clown pleco so I upped the temp to around 83/84 and added a tbsp. of aquarium salt/5gal of water

Just a quick observation re the above. The normal salt dose and temp when treating for ich is to add 1 teaspoon/gal and to get the temp. close to 90F (not all fish tolerate this). A tablespoon is equal to three teaspoons, so the salt dose above was only 60% of recommended and the temp. was not all that warm. I would say you were a bit lucky side when it worked and I am not sure if this would be a good level for use on a regular basis.

I have always used Quick Cure which is:

A "Tri-chelated" formula of 99.20% Formaldehyde
.75% Malachite Green
Directions- Use 1 drop per gallon daily on all fish except those of the tetra group.
For Tetras- Use 1 drop for every 2 gallons daily.
Cures Ick In 2 Days......
Cures Lymphocystis In 1 Week

from the bottle directions.

I am not sure but it may also be possible to use Flubendazole 10 % powder. I know it will cure velvet, so it might also cure ich. You would have to double check this with Dr. Harrison from whom I buy it here http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html
Fkubendazole is pretty benign for fish, I am not sure re inverts though. The site does say prolonged use will kill snails.

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 07 Apr 2016, 01:21

TwoTankAmin wrote:Just a quick observation re the above. The normal salt dose and temp when treating for ich is to add 1 teaspoon/gal and to get the temp. close to 90F (not all fish tolerate this). A tablespoon is equal to three teaspoons, so the salt dose above was only 60% of recommended and the temp. was not all that warm. I would say you were a bit lucky side when it worked and I am not sure if this would be a good level for use on a regular basis.

Teresa's question is really about the salt and not other meds - I understand what you're saying, TTA, about how the other member didn't add much salt and didn't raise temp much. But would you trust salt with BNs? - half strength? full strength? etc.?

CharlieM9 · Post by **CharlieM9** » 07 Apr 2016, 01:43

I use salt on a regular basis to treat in my QT tanks when new fish come in. I even give them a rather salty (not sure on exact amounts) dip before going into QT. My rule has always been 1 tablespoon to 5 gallons as has been mentioned above for in a tank. I have done this lately with L260, L128, L114, L351. I must make the comment that I do have rather soft water as that may or may not be a factor in ability to use salt. Sorry I cannot provide answer as to with bristlenose personally.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 01:56

Thank you guys much appreciated. I have flubendazole here at home. I'd been using a malachite green and formaldehyde based combination drug, but it didn't work. It seems the strain has evolved somewhat as this product after a full course did nothing! When I had used it many times before with no losses. Having seen a post TTA that you wrote in another thread, suggesting moving daily from one tank to another .This wasn't a practical option, but I transferred the ABNs into 2 entirely new tanks, with fresh water (drip acclimated them). Both barebottom tanks, set at 30 though this temp was counterproductive as fish were having problems breathing, so reduced temp. I rinsed everything,in boiling water. Wood, caves and filter casing ,but not sponges obviously. I then separated the two most severely affected from the two that had no spots at all. The two that were completely covered with spots. I figured once those cysts burst, the whole group would potentially succumb. In effect though it's not a nice decision, I basically was saving the ones that had a chance to pull through, from those that didn't. I have one very sick one, one died. Also a pair in a different tank that seem unaffected as in not having spots at all. But having symptoms such as flaring and flicking gill area. I used carbon to removed residues of the first treatment a water change and stared esha exit today. As there is no spots I'm thinking I could have a gill fluke issue if this is the case the flubendazole deals with this also. I know of a specialist in discus diseases where I got the flubendazole product I will speak to him tomorrow. As from what he's advised before it can be used in conjunction with some other products just need to check if it's safe to use it with esha exit or not. Really the salt not something I was confident about so didn't use it. Fish have enough changes without complicating it further with salt.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 13:26

What am I up against here? Is it whitespot, velvet ( oodinium- really hope not) or something else? The treatments I've used cover both whitespot and velvet neither have made any difference at all, in the case of this fish. I have another two in another tank, nowhere near being in this condition. It's most likely arleady too late for this one. Doesn't appear to be to late to save the others. As they don't have spots like the one in this pic. They are flicking off decor, flicking fins and flaring gills the rapid breathing has slowed down somewhat. But I don't know if this is a bad sign. They are eating. The one in this pic isn't eating has been sat motionless on top of the bogwood just below the surface although I'm putting as much air and circulation as is possible. Obviously it's probably too late for this one but maybe not my other two. Please help if you can do so.
Since it was a few days since my OP just to mention params have not changed since this time. But I can re list them.

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 07 Apr 2016, 14:09

Some fish handle more heat and salt than others. Just to provide an example, about 12 years ago when I was keeping my first discus i had a serious issue that killed 2 of the 4 fish withing 48 hours. I was clueless. So I looked to some discus folks for advice when the other 2 showed the same symptoms. The upshot was two adult discus in a 10 gall tanks running at about 90F and to whih I added 2 cups, yest cups, of salt. This halted the problem but did not reverse it and further advice was to use Binox. The discus both survived.

I have tried salt with tetras and danios in a Q tanks with ich. 19 fish in it and 18 died.

When I made the mistake of not Qing some new fish and put them into a tank with breeding bn, I lost a lot of fish. What saved the rest was Quick Cure. Two days of this med vs how many weeks with salt and high heat? What we often do not consider here is that salt raised conductivity/hardness, this is stressful to the fish on top of the ich and the heat which may also add to stress. As we know stress reduces a fish's ability to fight off disease and parasites. For fish that are OK with salt this is a lot less of an issue.

I have found that of all the meds I have used over the years, the least nasty tend to be those for parasites and fungus. Most do not bother the nitrifiers either.

I am not a huge fan of Wiki, but you might want to have a quick read here http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Ich It talks about salt an high temp. I would mormally find some science on this topic but I am very busy loading things for the NEC event this weekend. I am in the vendor room and should be working now.

In the end, what works for some may not work for others and vice versa. So all I can relate is my experience. I rarely use salt with plecos. But then I have not had ich except for three times. All three times it came in with new fish.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 14:26

Thanks TTA , yep you must get back to what you are doing. Very much appreciate you taking time to advise. I gather it's whitespot then. I will try to source some API. Will be my next port of call should esha exit have no effect.

CharlieM9 · Post by **CharlieM9** » 07 Apr 2016, 14:51

Teresa,

As TTA has mentioned all treatments can work differently. For me, that is not whitespot/ich as I have always imagined true ich to have the same size spots? That may be an incorrect notion on my part though.

If the fish is just hanging out not really moving, the heavy breathing may not be based on water temp/aeration but it struggling to deal with the disease. I do agree with TTA that for what your picture shows, Quickcure may be the best option to try as he mentioned previously.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 16:02

Thank you!
Just to avoid any confusion

One pair in a separate tank both seem OK except for these sypmtoms:

Gill flaring - but mainly by the male. (But Is he possibly just displaying to female spawning again is a only a few days off in my estimations)
Reduced appetite. But both eating and pooping. Big improvement.
Some flashing of decor. But significantly reduced.
Was rapid breathing but its now much improved.
No spots at all are on either fish.
Are active and not Darting to surface.
Overall improvement in both. I'd guess treatments are working.

The single female.

Listless. Resting motionless on wood just below surface all the time. But she does move when I get too close to tank.
Covered in spots even in the mouth.
Is only eating wood.
Flicking off decor occasionally.
Rapid breathing.
Darting to surface once in a while.
Seems treatments have done nothing whatsoever.
Deterioration. Despite both treatments and measures taken.

Set up wise, both tanks are barebottom. temp is 30c in pairs tank (but 28 in single females tank as it seemed to be detrimental because of the breathing problems), 3 air diffusers and a 1500LPH filter in each tank, making a massive splash. No lighting in use. Params normal. Decor is removed daily and rinsed in boiling water. Both tanks open topped with low water levels. I covered the females tank above the wood, but not entirely as she keeps darting to the surface.
1 pair in 2ftx12x12 sized tank.
1 Female in 18 x12 x15 inch tank

Treatments used
Protozin which failed to clear it up in the worst cases. Ran the recommended 6 day course.
After removing the protozin residues with carbon overnight in each tank and 50%WC then removed carbon and started esha exit.
Two options a three day course. But for severe cases longer course is suggested.
Only on 2nd day today.
So Do I remove then and change to quick cure?

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 16:54

Lost one in pic above in last hour. Only two fish left out of a 4ft tank. Devastated.

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 07 Apr 2016, 17:14

Sorry Teresa. That's not fun.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 17:16

Still not sure if these two will even be OK there's improvement though.

CharlieM9 · Post by **CharlieM9** » 07 Apr 2016, 19:04

Teresa,

Sorry to hear about the loss. I would still continue treatment of the last two. Just because it's not visible, does not mean there isn't something there. And as TTA also stated, these are types of treatments that have little if any adverse reaction to the fish. Better safe than sorry in my eyes...

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 07 Apr 2016, 19:09

I'm continuing the optional extended course of esha. Good news is both are stuffing thier faces with courgettes Atm. I'm certain they will pull through. The next challenge is how do I decontaminate all the tanks and equipment. I don't want to go through this again if I can prevent it.

Embee · Post by **Embee** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:30

Have you receovered from this travesty Teresa?

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:32

Was a difficult time. To keep the pair that's remaining healthy will be keeping them without other fish.

Embee · Post by **Embee** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:56

I sure hope you get it all sorted out. eSha Exit is what is recommended in my neck of the woods for ich, combined with eSha 2000.

If it's any comfort you and your pets are in my thoughts - which is a direct danish translation, not sure if it carries to english

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:59

Thanks it seems to have cleared. The pair wasn't as badly affected as the others were. Still keeping a close eye on them both.

KSquared · Post by **KSquared** » 15 Apr 2016, 15:00

So to clarify from my earlier post. I just wanted to share my experience. In the research I did I found that the parasite's lifespan is reduced dramatically by raising the temperature, the hotter it is the shorter their lifespan, the goal being to get the cysts to leave the fish and rupture in less than a day. Raising the temp to 84-86f should get this cycle to go in around 8hrs. without overly stressing the fish and greatly reducing o2 levels in the tank as would much higher temps. Adding a relatively small amount of salt to the tank helps the fish's gill function so they can process the smaller amounts of o2 more efficiently, that's the only reason I personally added it.

Then once you get the cycle of the parasite down you can treat with medicine for only a couple of days, killing all the parasites, then change the water and add charcoal filter to remove the medicine and the salt and thereby reducing the amount of time the fish are exposed to chemicals, salt, higher temps and lower o2 levels. I'm not saying that what I found and interpreted from the many articles I read was exactly correct. I'm just relaying what I did, and it worked, and should I ever have an outbreak again I would do the same thing first, and then if necessary try more drastic measures.

Having said all that, I am very new to this, and I'm sure that I caught the outbreak very early on (I'm a bit obsessive about watching my fish) and I'm sure, in a lot of ways I got lucky, and btw those pictures look exactly like what was on my fish which I still believe was ich. However, it worked, and it worked very well. I have corys, bn, a clown, tetras, danios, and clown loaches (which is where I think it started) all in there and they are all doing awesome and growing very large very quickly.

As with everything, you have to take all of the information into account and try and make the best decision you can. And believe me I certainly don't want to spread any mis-information so if anything I've said is flat out wrong, I take no offense in being corrected. It's just based on numerous sources that I put together and my own experience with the outcome.

Also, I see the last post on this thread was about a week ago. I hope things changed for the better. Sorry about your loss. Please share the rest of the story if you get a chance.

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 15 Apr 2016, 15:32

Thank you Ksquared. My method of managing the outbreak was slightly different, but only as it seemed to be one of the particularly nasty strains. When I first discovered the tetras I'd QTD covered in spots I immediately removed them as it was looking like it was already too late for them, I subsequently lost them. I removed the plants also as the dead plant matter could potentially clog the filters which in a tank with a temperature 30 a clogged filter would mean a potentially harmful drop in oxygen levels. I started a course of protozin. Then I discovered that 2 recently added ABNS, that had been kept separate for a week- a big QT blunder (on my part here) had also been hit very badly and the protozin treatment was ineffective. But my original pair hadn't been hit ,as in having no spots. I'd separated them into separate tanks, knowing when the cyst burst on the worst affected i coukd lose them all. I went on the theory in the linked thread that getting them out of the tank hit by whitespot might give them a chance it wasn't something I had the means to do everyday for a week but I figured it might at least help to get them out of affected tank. So I put the worst affected for which i considered it too late and the unaffected pair in separate tanks and continued treatment. Everything was washed in boiling water except the filter sponges. I ran 2 treatments removing the first with carbon. The only fish remaining is my pair, but they have recovered fully. My intention is to keep them in their own tank now.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=41450

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 16 Apr 2016, 14:10

The problem with salt is that it will affect conductivity/TDS levels but does not show up on a test for GH or KH. I took some time to look at a few studies of salt and fw fish. As far as I could tell salt has almost no affect on gill function. What it does affect is osmoregulation in the fish. It can also effect mucus production (including in the gills). But this works in both directions, too little mucus and salt will stimulate its production, too much and it cause excess mucus which can be harmful.

What was clear from all I read is there simply is no rule one can follow when adding salt to fw tanks, it depends on the species involved. Most catfish are not very salt tolerant, though some are moreso. Moreover, salt is mostly used to treat conditions resulting from stress and the amounts needed are very low. Of course salt can be used as an effective treatment for parasites in fw (the reverse hold for sw fish where fw can be used for the same reasons). The temporary use of small amounts of salt is one of the best ways to deal with nitrite in a tank due to the chloride component.

Each of us has to decide if, when and how much salt we might use to treat any species of fw fish. I came across this article from Practical Fish keeping in 2010, it may help folks decide how they are comfortable using or not using salt. Frequently asked questions on using salt http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=2850

pleconut · Post by **pleconut** » 16 Apr 2016, 14:36

Thanks I will check out the link. As for my ABN Pair something still isn't seeming quite right...call it gut instinct if you will. As the female is absolutely huge but doesn't seem to have any spawning interest whatsoever although I've deliberately laid off cool water changes because of the recent outbreak. The male has tried to trap her when she hides (I think) in his cave but she escapes and hides elsewhere. I even found her sitting on top of the internal filter. Because of my concerns I took some photos yesterday and then cropped and enlarged them. Found there was a very small amount of spots on the body of the female -about 4 or so. Also they don't appear to be eating much at all but I have found they don't when close to spawning. Running a treatment of esha exit again. But also have esha 2000 on order as it can be used in conjunction to deal with most commonly found problems.

Is aquarium salt safe for BNs

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