Can Hypancistrus over-eat meat and get bloat?

[bekateen]

Hi all,

This is a hypothetical question, not a report of a problem:

I've got four Hypancistrus

L201

. I feed them a variety of foods - live tubifex worms (they live in the sand substrate), frozen beef heart (2-3x/week), boiled black-eyed peas and black beans (1-2x/week), raw sweet potato (always available in tank), NLS Thera A+ 1mm pellets (2-3x/week), and occasionally algae or omnivore wafers; also, wood is available in the tank.

I've rarely seen them eat, but the one food item that disappears the fastest is the frozen beef heart.

The fish appear healthy, but should I be concerned about them eating too much meat? I know hypans are more carnivorous, but can they develop bloat like other plecos which eat too much meat?

Thanks, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

I have never been a fan of beef heart. I did not like feeding it to my discus when I kept them. I read too much and decided it was not the best of foods for fish. I have never fed any of my Hypans zucchini, cucumber or other fresh veggies. I do feed them prepared foods which contain veggies and do use sinking veggie sticks/bits, I even feed them spiulina flakes with garlic and paprika once a week. I tried feeding fresh veggies to my Hypans but they were always left untouched, so I quit trying.

Most prepared meaty fish foods seem to contain both meat and vegetable matter. Here is the list of ingredients for earthworm and veggies sticks from kensfish:

Earthworm Sticks
Main Ingredients: Salmon Meal, Fish Protein Concentrate, Wheat Flour, Soy Flour, Gluten, Dried Brewer's Yeast, Frozen Baby Brine Shrimp, Plankton, Shrimp, Krill Powder Mix, Earthworms, Kelp Meal, Dried Spirulina, Fish Oil, Lecithin. The Following Vitamins/Mineral Supplements A, D-3, B1, B12, Choline Hcl, & Biotin Methionine. Vegetable Protein. Thiamine ( Source Of Vitamin B1). Asorbic Acid (Source Of Vitamin C). Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Licheniformis Fermentation

Veggie Sticks
Ingredients: Mixture Of Plants And Vegetables Including: Seaweed, Spirulina, Carrots, Squash, Spinach. Vegetable Oils, Soy Meal, Yeast, Wheat Flour, Vitamin & Mineral Supplement. Asorbic Acid (Source Of Vitamin C). Natural And Some Artificial Coloring. Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Licheniformis Fermentation

Note the veggies included in the Earthworm sticks. Read the ingredients for most so-called meaty foods and you will see they also contain veggies. I should note that one of the frozen foods I feed them is Hikari's Frozen Spirulina Brine Shrimp- " Enhanced With Multi-Vitamins & Pure-Cultured Spirulina Gut-loaded with bio-encapsulated vitamins and minerals gut-loaded with pure-cultured spirulina."

I also recall reading that during their first few months, Hypans need to have veggies in their diet moreso than when they get older. So I have always tried to insure there is sufficient veggie matter present, just not fresh veggies. Moerover, my breeding and growout tanks for plecos are not lighted and they have no algae. At least none that I can see.

[bekateen]

I have never been a fan of beef heart. I did not like feeding it to my discus when I kept them. I read too much and decided it was not the best of foods for fish.

Thanks TTA.

I'm curious: what have you read about beef heart, other than it is not a "balanced" food perhaps, that makes you not want to feed it to your fish? I may just be old, but when I was young (1970's), beef heart was "the food" to use with cichlids and other meat eaters, and I'll confess that as I've started back into aquaria, and now acquired my first "carnivorous" plecos, I just went straight for the frozen beef heart without investigating first.

I completely understand what you're saying about the blend of veggie material into the prepared meat foods like earthworm sticks. I do feed my L201 some omnivore wafers, and even occasionally some regular fish food flakes. And the beans are boiled, not fresh, so hopefully they provide protein and fiber.

But if these are bad ideas, I'm more than willing to change their food regimen. For now, with the exception of the beef heart, I am mostly feeding these L201 a mix of the same foods I give my other fish, but simply in different proportions (more meaty, less veggie).

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

I cannot remember what I read. I just know that I stopped feeding beefheart many years ago. I have mostly seen beefheart used as a discus food. I believe there are issues with quality in terms of this food. But then that can be true of almost any food. I believe beef heart is also very high in cholesterol. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing for the average fw fish. I think many fw fish can produce their own cholesterol if there is none or insufficient amounts in their diet.

I think it has more to do with the fact that is not a natural food for fish. I would certainly only consider feeding it on occasion as opposed to using it as a more staple food. I would not want to put it into tanks which also held vegetarian fish.

I think in the end I figured given some of the potential problems it was safer not to feed it. But I was likely being overly cautious. I prefer to stick with tubifex, bloods, brine, mysis etc.

Clearly beef heart is a high protein food, from that point of view it is likely OK to feed in smaller amounts but not as an every day food. I am just biased I think?

[MarlonnekeW]

Have you tried Brussels spouts with your L201? When I bought mine, I've talked with the breeder about food and he was very enthusiastic about feeding Brussels sprouts occasionally. My L201 is not a veggy fan, but it loves sprouts.

[bekateen]

Thanks again. That logic is all reasonable. I don't know about whether fish are harmed by a high cholesterol diet, but I suspect you're right that beef heart, or any vertebrate heart muscle, is not likely to be any significant part of any pleco's diet.

And I too am of the belief that a mix of foods is far safer than a single food diet. When I was young, I fed beef heart (fresh back then, not frozen) to convicts, Geophagus, and other cichlids. I didn't own any cats back then. Now I have some frozen beef heart cubes which I bought for some cichlids which I no longer own, so I thought I would give some to my L201 to help condition them up, since I've had them for only a little more than one month and I don't know their prior health. I didn't plan to feed them beef heart a lot, but as I said earlier, that seems to be the one food which they are taking more than anything else. They almost entirely ignore the omnivore and algae wafers; they do pick at the sweet potato and boiled, peeled beans, but I just don't feel like I've found their "best" food yet.

I am still curious about the initial premise of my post - Do Hypans get bloat if they eat too much meat?

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Have you tried Brussels spouts with your L201? When I bought mine, I've talked with the breeder about food and he was very enthusiastic about feeding Brussels sprouts occasionally. My L201 is not a veggy fan, but it loves sprouts.

Thanks for the idea Marlonneke. No I haven't tried these, but I do have some frozen which I made for my ABNs. I'll give them a try too.

I am still curious about the initial premise of my post - Do Hypans get bloat if they eat too much meat?

Cheers, Eric

[Linus_Cello]

In a post from 2011, Apistomaster advised against beef heart for bloat (see below). Some hyphans are great tanks for discus since they will do well in warm water, but will succumb to bloat if they eat too much beef heart which is fed for the discus.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=34256

[bekateen]

Thanks, Linus_Cello. I had overlooked or missed that post in my forum searches... Probably chose the wrong search words.

Okay, that really answers my question. Sine my plecos gave had meat a few times already, I'm going to cut back on meat for a while, and afterward stick to fish meat and shellfish, plus some Repashy and prepared foods (and of course the mixed in veggies and algae wafers - those will stay).

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

I would offer a personal observation here. over the years I have kept a variety of fish. I have also fed a huge assortment of foods over the years. I have yet to feed any food to any fish which refused to eat it unless it was sick or guarding offspring. Every fish I have ever had is a pig when it came to food.

In fact, one of my favorite scenes in a tank is when I, and at least one fish, spot a scrap of something not food in the water. That fish will swim over and try to eat it. Once the fish discovers it isn't food, it spits it out. Another fish, witnessing this, will then swim over and do the exact same thing. I have watched this sample and spit routine work its way through almost every fish in the tank. And lets not get started in talking about how your fish all scramble to assume their feeding positions when they think you are nearing the tank with food. Only the hiders tend to wait until the food hits the water.

As for using beefheart to condition, that would be the best use for it. You are not feeding it all that much - usually the means several times in a week for maybe a week or two. I would not use it as the sole food for this but I can see it being a contributor to a boost in the protein levels for this purpose.

Brussel sprouts, really? I have never tried feeding them. Once I stopped keeping bristlenose, I stop feeding fresh veggies. But I never tried them maybe because I dislike them myself. But a sprout is pretty large and also I wonder how you prepare it for feeding. With most veggies I will nuke them on low power rather than par boiling. They then sink on their own. I used to feed bn canned green beans as a way to help condition them to spawn.

Since my Hypans are all willing to eat the weekly spirulina w/garlic as well as the veggie bits or sticks mixed with the earthworm ones, I stopped trying to feed fresh veggies. I wonder if sprouts are a 201 specific thing or if other Hypancistrus would go for them? I have no 201s, but I do have contradens, so at least they have spots.

[MarlonnekeW]

I know what you mean. I don't like them either, so I really don't understand why, but all my fish really love them. A few weeks ago I bought a group of Corydoras concolor. One of the skewers didn't hold so the spout was floating near the surface. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw one of the concolor swimming vertically under the surface to reach the spout and eat it. And they are supposed to be mainly carnivorous...

So, I started to buy and prepare sprouts just for my fish ;). I usually boil them for 10-15 minutes. They only seem to like them when they are well-done. I let them cool off and cut them in half, so it's easier for the fish to eat them. I prepare a large portion (the last time 1 kg) and put them in the freezer. Fortunately, the sprouts keep their consistency when you freeze them, so they don't get soft like for example cucumber. When I want to defrost them, I put them in some boiling water and within a few minutes they are ready to feed to my fish.

[bekateen]

I can't stand Brussels sprouts either. In my family, we call them "cabbage embryos" even though they aren't related to cabbage.

It sounds like I prepare Brussels sprouts in the same manner as Marlonneke: I buy fresh Brussels sprouts, boil them for about 15 minutes, and then I freeze them. To defrost them, I just soak them in tap water, not boiling water. Then I impale them on a bamboo shish-kabob skewer, right through the stem and out the top, and I anchor the skewer in my tank. Previously, I've only fed Brussels sprouts to my ABNs (which love it), my Panaqolus maccus (which like it), and my Hemiancistrus guahiborum (which sometimes eat it, but sometimes don't touch it). I haven't tried it yet with my L201, but now I will. The only thing I don't like about Brussels sprouts is that they are messy - my plecos tend to tear the sprouts apart and the leaves float around in the water, shredded; they are much messier than sweet potato or broccoli or the peeled black beans and peeled black-eyed peas.

I have yet to feed any food to any fish which refused to eat it unless it was sick or guarding offspring.

Similarly, I have advised others that we shouldn't worry so much about whether our fish are eating. When they get hungry, they will eat eventually. Only after a significant period of time with no evidence of eating (chewed food or the presence of poop in tank) should we start examining possibilities such as illness-induced loss of appetite; if they are spawning, or trying to, it's usually pretty obvious and again requires no intervention.

But unlike you, TTA, I have some plecos which I've NEVER seen eat. And yet they are alive and appear healthy, even after in my tanks for months. So I presume they are eating something.

I will feed the frozen beef heart (which I already own) to my hypans until it is all used up but at a slow rate, maybe once a week or once every other week); I will not feed it to them more often. And once I use up the package I have, I won't buy more. There are plenty of other protein rich foods which I also offer them already (live Tubifex worms, peeled and cooked black-eyed peas and black beans, Repashy meat pie, plus artificial crab meat and frozen raw shrimp (both intended for human consumption)), and those will simply be my replacement when the beef heart is gone.

Cheers, Eric

[MarlonnekeW]

Funny that we all dislike Brussels spouts

About them getting messy, do you remove the outer layer of leaves? I prepare them, just as I would if they would be for human consumption. So I remove the bit on the bottom and all the outer (loose) leaves before boiling them. With the boiling, some more leaves get loose and I remove them as well. So what's left is pretty compact. Usually the sprout stays that way when it's in the aquarium; my fish eat it, but don't tear it apart.
I also cut them in half, so they can reach the center part. Maybe if you don't, they tear it apart to get to the tasty bits?

[bekateen]

Hi Marlonneke,

Honestly, I think that nobody really "likes" Brussels sprout. To enjoy the taste of Brussels sprouts is like being amazed by the Emperor's clothes in the children's story of the same name.

About preparing them, no I don't cut off or remove anything. The fish like the leaves, so I just make sure I only serve Brussels sprouts on the day before a water change.

Cheers, Eric

[Pinkpleco]

Funny that we all dislike Brussels spouts

If I tried to feed brussels sprouts to my plecos I'd probably cause a riot. In my family, fresh brussels sprouts are to be chopped into coleslaw-sized strips and stir-fried with crumbled bacon, shallots, and olive oil, then topped with a dash of balsamic salad dressing and served with grilled meat, not put in a fish tank!

All these examples of feeding beans and such are very interesting. I'll have to give it a try with my plecos sometime.

[MarlonnekeW]

About preparing them, no I don't cut off or remove anything. The fish like the leaves, so I just make sure I only serve Brussels sprouts on the day before a water change.

Cheers, Eric

I guess that's the explanation, why they are messy. I can leave the 'cleaned' sprouts in the aquarium for 2 days without them causing any pollution.

Just to be curious, are the sprouts an expensive vegetable where you guys live? I can buy them around here for app. 1 euro per kg.

[bekateen]

I guess that's the explanation, why they are messy. I can leave the 'cleaned' sprouts in the aquarium for 2 days without them causing any pollution.

Aren't you throwing away most of the food by peeling and cutting so much?

Just to be curious, are the sprouts an expensive vegetable where you guys live? I can buy them around here for app. 1 euro per kg.

I don't buy them very often since I can cook a lot and freeze them, so I don't recall the price. I'll look next time I'm in the grocery store.

[MarlonnekeW]

Aren't you throwing away most of the food by peeling and cutting so much?

I think I remove the first 5 leaves or so, so I do loose some of the food, but not a lot. With the majority of the sprouts there's quite some dirt etc. on the outer leaves and I have no idea if they use any pesticides, so I would rather remove them anyway.

[Bas Pels]

In the Netherlands vegetables will have been treated with pesticides, unless organic.

However, the rules regarding when to use them are so, that most of the pedicide is gone from the product before it is sold in a shop. That is, the remaining amount is smaller than what can cause effects in a human who eats more or less normal.

I once read about someone feeding a seetank with mussles, with ill results: the mussles were - it happened in 1975 - treated with a conservative which is not meant to be eaten daily. By now mussles are kept under carbondioxide, and do not need any conservative anymore, but you get the meaning. If you fear your fishes will be harmed by the pesticides, you can by organic (it is not something I am scared of, but that is my opinion)

however, regarding the removal of outer leaves - these will contain the same, minute, if any, amount of a pesticide as the inner leaves. I would not remove them.

[MarlonnekeW]

It's good to know that I shouldn't be to worried about pesticides.

I'm not sure if not cleaning them would change anything in the amount of food I'm using. In most cases there's a bit of sprout left after 2 days that I'll have to remove. So if I don't remove the outer layers, there will probably be some more leftover sprout. And combined with the fact that Eric can only leave them in there for a day and only before a water change, removing the outer leaves might be more beneficial in the end.

[Fundulopanchax76]

The worse food i think is tubifex, some plecos die when eat it. What is your opinion guys ?

[bekateen]

The worse food i think is tubifex, some plecos die when eat it. What is your opinion guys ?

Oh no, really? I've read several times of Tubifex or black worms being fed to plecos. Are you referring to the difference between live and freeze dried in terms of bacteria? Or something else related to the nutritional properties of them.

Thanks, Eric

[Fundulopanchax76]

I mean that when you feed plecos with alive tubifex, their abdomens bloat and fishes die.

[bekateen]

I mean that when you feed plecos with alive tubifex, their abdomens bloat and fishes die.

So you think Tubifex is too dangerous - perhaps too pure if frequently available - as a protein source? Like the beef heart problem, I suppose? If so, then I should be okay because I feed them live Tubifex only once a week, or less. Risk of bloat should be low.

[Jobro]

Honestly, I think that nobody really "likes" Brussels sprout.

Lol, I really like them xD I actually love that taste

I never fed any beef heart. I read, that most fish lack the enzymes needed to diggest warmblooded/mammals proteins. So they poop a lot of it back into the water without really consuming the proteins. But some people swear on beef heart for discus, so I don't really know.

Update: did some search and found a source stating, that even Discus can only diggest beef-heart at tempratures of 30*C or more. Discus can live happily in tanks with lower temperatures, but if you feed them beef, they seem to get sick (at lower tempratures). Feeding fish or shrimp meat should be way better for any fish.

source: http://www.aquamax.de/index.php/rinderh ... utter.html

[bekateen]

Thanks for the extra information.

Cheers, Eric

P.S., I'm sorry that you have been cursed with a love of Brussels sprouts. In my opinion, nobody should suffer that fate. But since you do enjoy them, you can have mine every time I am served them.

[TwoTankAmin]

Over the past weekend at the NEC event I attended a presentation By Dr. Stephan Tanner on plecos from the Xingu. One part of the presentation dealt with diet. He specifically stated one should not feed beef heart to plecos.

[bekateen]

Thanks for the extra info, TTA. I'm convicted to avoid it in the future, for all fish.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Honestly, I think that nobody really "likes" Brussels sprout.

Lol, I really like them xD I actually love that taste

I won't make a habit of this, and what I'll say next may not have context to folks in Europe and the UK, but I just watched the television show "Saturday Night Live" and in that show was a pertinent quote:

Brussels sprouts are a riot, because they smell like a fart but they actually taste like a burp.

Hopefilly you can imagine how hard I'm laughing right now... I'm in tears. But that quote wouldn't have been so funny if not for the conversation in this thread!

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

True, they can smell almost like a fart Not gonna comment on the taste though xD