Ancistrus ???

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 29 Dec 2003, 19:29

All of my research has shown that the albinos are classified as Ancistrus sp. However, many think the you masters on this forum can actually tell what kind it is, so any info would be helpful, thanx.

Male Ancistrus:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dracos ... .+Male.jpg

Female Ancistrus:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dracos ... female.jpg

Post by **Shane** » 30 Dec 2003, 01:13

To date, all of the albino Ancistrus photos that I have seen have been Ancistrus triradiatus. That said, there could be albino strains of other spp. that I have not seen yet. There is also the outside chance that some albinos might be hybrids. Can you take close up shots of the fish's caudal pattern and the male's pattern of snout tentacles?
-Shane

Jorge · Post by **Jorge** » 02 Jan 2004, 16:20

Shane, do you think these all are also A. triradiatus?

and why? which are distinctive signs in this species?

Post by **Shane** » 02 Jan 2004, 19:05

Jorge,
Your fish is A. triradiatus. I will take some more photos of the normal variety and, with the two side by side, you will see the similarities. The main identifying characteristics are the overall body pattern with light spots and the very distinctive tail pattern with 3-4 dark horizontal lines.
The biggest problem is that in the normal color variety, the spots fade away when the fish is stressed and the fish becomes more of an overall brown. This is why the ones in the Cat-eLog look a little different. I need to leave them in the photo tank for a while before taking pictures so they will put on their normal colors.
-Shane

Post by **Barbie** » 02 Jan 2004, 20:10

Here's a picture of mine, if it helps any, since Shane's already familiar with it

Barbie

Post by **Shane** » 02 Jan 2004, 22:14

Perfect Barbie!
Now look at the pattern on the overall body and the fins in particular. It is clear that yours are albino A. triradiatus.
-Shane

Jorge · Post by **Jorge** » 02 Jan 2004, 23:34

Then, according to the tail pattern, are all these also A. triradiatus?

Post by **Shane** » 03 Jan 2004, 04:23

Jorge,
No, they are not. The body and caudal patterns are very different for the first and fourth fish. The second fish looks like a young A. triradiatus. The third may be A. triradiatus but I can not tell as the photo is very dark on my monitor. The fifth fish I am also not sure on, but I do not think so as the head appears longer than for A. tritradiatus.

Note that Barbie's fish and the second photo that you posted (as well as the albino pics above) show a fish with a pattern in the dorsal fin that forms jagged verticle lines and a pattern in the caudal that forms jagged horizontal lines. The first photo in your last post shows a fish with a pattern of spots in the fins. I have never seen this sp. before.

Jorge · Post by **Jorge** » 03 Jan 2004, 17:37

The first one was sold to me as A. dolichopterus Â¿? here is another picture of him

This one was bought as A. temminki Â¿? This species is not in the Cat-elog. Is invalid? Is in your opinion also a triradiatus?

Last. You say that A. triradiatus shows 3-4 bars in the tail. I have this female, whit a lot of more jagged bars (6-7), but exactly (for my eyes) in form and pattern. What she is? A. triradiatus also?

Thanks

Post by **Shane** » 03 Jan 2004, 22:12

Jorge,
The species names Ancistrus dolichopterus and A. temmincki have been used in the hobby to identify just about every Ancistrus sp. ever imported.

A. dolichopterus , if it is a valid sp, probably has been exported from the Rio Negro at one time and may still be imported. The problem is that this scientific name has been associated with any of a dozen or so different Ancistrus over the years in as many different aquarium books. The truth is that this may not even be a valid spp. as it appears that the type material contained two different spp. Kner used four specimens in the description. Three were described as uniform brown with light brown spots on the stomach while the fourth specimen was described as uniform dark brown with light spots on the dorsal area.

I do believe that A. temmincki was probably exported a great deal in the 1960s and 1970s when Guyana was the export center for tropical fishes. The first aquarium books that showed photos of A. temmincki were probably correct. The problem is that newer aquarium books published over the last 30 years STILL use this name even though very few aquarium fishes now come from Guyana.

I'll drop Lee Finley a line as he is the master of aquarium history. e should be able to tell us when these scientific names were first used in the aquarium literature.

Jorge, the bottom two photos are A. triradiatus. I should have said that they have a "series of bars in the tail" as the number of jagged bars changes with the fish's size and can be more than four. I still have no idea what your big male Ancistrus is. I would just call it Ancistrus sp. until you can track down what river he came from.
-Shane

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 06 Jan 2004, 03:06

Well, I won't be getting a picture of my male anytime soon. She for some strange reason, went up and died on me. I will have to go to the same breeder so I don't get another sp. and then get a picture so we can find out what it is. Until then, I will assume Ancistrus triradiatus due to the safe bet. I do have another question however regarding the fish. I was talking to a catfish dude today and he said that they "REQUIRE" driftwood to stay alive. I did some reading and this seems to be mainly an opinion, is there any scientifical annalysis to support this? Also, since I am I huge African Cichlid fan, would the driftwoon effect my required hard PH? Just curious so that I can make my fish happy, thanx.

Michael

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 06 Jan 2004, 03:15

Manofsnow,

The driftwood thing is just a matter of opinion with Ancistrus. When fed a high protein, low fiber food, their intestines can become blocked. However, if they are being fed veggies frequently, they do just as well without it.

Larry Vires

Dude123 · Post by **Dude123** » 06 Jan 2004, 03:21

oooh, those albinos are nice!!!. What would the results be if a albino was bred with a regular dark colored A. triradiatus?

one more thing. How aggressive do males become when breeding? Could they be bred in a community tank with lots of bottom dwellers like cories, kuhli loaches and a clown plec?

Sorry for the mini hijack

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 06 Jan 2004, 23:16

Larry Vires,

What is it that you prefer then? I am not feeding any vegies or anything, she has been living on pure algae for quite some time now. I was thinking of puting a small strip of driftwood in there for her if she feels the need to do whatever she wants to do with it. Also, what kind of veggies? Remeber I am a cichlid freak, not a catfish freak....yet

Dude123,
As for breeding with a regular, I would assume they are like any genetic equation. If you had a "aa"(albino) and a "AA"(regular) and you bred them you would probably come out with all regulars. Meaning that the albino allele wouldn't become dominant. If you had a "aa"(albino) and an "Aa"(het. albino) then you would likely come out with half albino and half regular. Also, there is no sure way of telling of you have a het. unless you breed it. Make sence?

Dude123 · Post by **Dude123** » 07 Jan 2004, 00:00

Perfect Man. I should have know that as I did a genetics section in school not to long ago. Offspring from that would result as 100% Aa though and from there could be bred for albinos. If the albino trait is a sex chromosome linked gene then males from the offspring would result as regualr without the albino gene. I think thats the way it works, my memory is a little hazy.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 07 Jan 2004, 03:44

Yes, that is correct. However, I do not know of any animals that have the albino gene as a sex linked trait. Most sex linked traits are hereditary sicknesses or deformations. Cosmetic linked traits mainly remain genetic by both parents. Since albanism is the lack of pigment not a special kind of pigment, the two parents together are the effectors of this. You are correct on the Aa theory. Hope I make sence, like most scientists, I have a hard time explaining my thoughts.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 07 Jan 2004, 04:04

Manofsnow,

I would recommend dropping a few veggies into the tank on occasion just to supplement the current diet. A few pieces of dritwood couldn't hurt. I was just making the point that it is not necessary with a diet focused toward the fish.

My genetics professors would kill me if they ever read this, but here goes a quick rundown on the genetics of albino Ancistrus. They are not true albinos. There are apparently at least 2 sets of genes which actually mask the natural color. Most of the stock available today has been line bred to the point that an albino to albino spawn will produce all albinos. However, some fish do still show the dark pigments, just more faded. Most fish from a cross of albino * ferile will not carry enough genetic material to get the color back without several generations of line breeding or a back cross to the albino parent.

Larry Vires

Dude123 · Post by **Dude123** » 07 Jan 2004, 14:54

Thanks for the info guys.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 07 Jan 2004, 18:31

What kind of veggies, how do I add them, and how long do I keep them in there?

Dude123 · Post by **Dude123** » 07 Jan 2004, 20:34

Cucumbers,peas, lettuce and zucchini are among the more widely used veggies. Some peple use them raw and some blanch them. You can use a plant wait to make them sink or use a rubber band and attach the veggies to a rock. length of time varies but usually a few hours so they dont pollute the water.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 08 Jan 2004, 06:51

My primary vegetable feed has become canned green beans. I usually add a fork full, not including the fork, a couple times a week unless the fish is getting my homemade recipe.

Larry Vires

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 09 Jan 2004, 02:27

This seems harder than I though, you are throwing green beans in your tank, along with an assorted blob of other stuff? I thought raising my own brine shrimp was hard. Oh well, better go open a can of beans....lol

Dude123 · Post by **Dude123** » 09 Jan 2004, 20:07

I added a peice of raw cucumber last night and nothing but snails touched it. Im gonna try mircowaving it for a few second to soften it.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 10 Jan 2004, 01:00

Did you tie weights to it to make it sink? I like sinking foods, less work for me

Dude123 · Post by **Dude123** » 10 Jan 2004, 02:10

I used a lettuce/veggie clip thing that I have. I added carrot and cucumber gain tonight but they dont seem to want either. ergh. The best way i have heard to make foods sink is this: Tie some fishing line to your tank stand and a plant weight. Shove said weight into veggies and drop into tank. Pull on line to retrieve. Let me know how it goes and what they like. Im gonna try lettuce tommorow and anything else I can find.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 11 Jan 2004, 20:39

I went down to the same breeder I got my Ancistrus from and bought 3 more. Since I have one female at home, I wanterd 2 males and 1 female so I picked out the two largest and the smallest one. In my expert fish area this is a good way to tell males from females when they aren't yet showing any physical differances. Is this also true for Ancistrus. The size differance isn't much, but I have found it a good way to tell in c i c h l i d s for many years.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 12 Jan 2004, 00:41

Size difference only counts if you know that the fish are from the same spawn and environment. Kathy Jinkings shows a pic in her book claiming some size difference between immature sexes and the photos would indicate that. However, I haven't seen any noticeable difference in my immature fry until after their bristles have started to come in anyway.

Larry Vires

Alan_au · Post by **Alan_au** » 22 Jan 2004, 04:01

When I started reading this thread I thought, wow, at last we are going to get a possitive I.D. on these guys. Unfortunatley not. Just going to have to get some pics and see what you guys think. I just measured a four year old male 17.5 cm (almost 7 inches) T.L., 14 cm ( about 5.5 inches) S.L. The spots on his head are smaller and more numerous than the illustration of A triradiatus. No bars on the pectoral spine, a broard pale band across the caudal peduncle and only light baring of the posterior dorsal fin. The anterior dorsal is clear.

Still a mystery. These fish are all descended for a pair imported in 1968 as A temminkii. I have 53 females and 14 males all breeding in 4 x 400 liter tanks and each year try to retire one colony and set up a new one with young females from the retiring colony and males fron the other three. Just trying to maintain as wide a gene pool as possable.

Alan

Ancistrus ???

Ancistrus ???

dead

opinion

new fish

Ancistrus ??? Bristnose in Australia.