HMF Questions
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HMF Questions
Hi All,
Been looking into these filters for a long time. For reasons of speed and 100% work I went for canisters on my main tanks but I am not ruling out trying one these out over Christmas in a new or disused tank.
1)30PPI seems to be the preferred standard is it worth putting 2 sheets in so 1 can be thrown and 1 pulled forward when a swap out is required.
2)Do they make the advertised 12-18 months no clean periods
3)Where in uk is best to get foams (ebay is hard to select the right PPI at reasonable prices) Found some pond foam at cheap prices but no PPI listed on it.
4) spout some people seem to use straight cut others cut at an \ does it make any odds ?
5)Does sand clog them or is it a case of small fish don't knock it up enough to be a problem. By small anything less than 3" long
6) Do they start as fast as other filters (6 weeks from scratch or kick start in 2 for an established tank.
7)I remember reading on here about them forming the bacteria needed to de nitrify the tanks over time does this actually occur?
Is it a good idea to use blocks behind them like small cubes in a random order or is that over kill?
9)I assume heaters behind are not a bad idea or is the slow flow mean its best to have them in the main body of water?
10) cut size some videos recommend an extra 1cm wide per side so total 2cm others an inch , with thickness of 1" or 2" on others best ones?
11)When end of life do you have to gut the tank to redo or can it be done with fish still in?
12) all the videos I watched used air pumps is a power head better do we have an easy to use formula to work out flow needed?
13) All videos recommended end tank fitting for ease of fit and to help avoid bowing in foam can a full length one be done?
14) Most videos recommended an 1" gap at the bottom others went into drilling the base 2" of uplift pipe for 2-3" up which is best?
Can anyone show some pictures of long term setups I know I saw some brief ones in an article on here but would like to see some more along with further information on common mistakes and little helping tips.
Sorry lots of questions so decided not to hijack someone else's thread
Been looking into these filters for a long time. For reasons of speed and 100% work I went for canisters on my main tanks but I am not ruling out trying one these out over Christmas in a new or disused tank.
1)30PPI seems to be the preferred standard is it worth putting 2 sheets in so 1 can be thrown and 1 pulled forward when a swap out is required.
2)Do they make the advertised 12-18 months no clean periods
3)Where in uk is best to get foams (ebay is hard to select the right PPI at reasonable prices) Found some pond foam at cheap prices but no PPI listed on it.
4) spout some people seem to use straight cut others cut at an \ does it make any odds ?
5)Does sand clog them or is it a case of small fish don't knock it up enough to be a problem. By small anything less than 3" long
6) Do they start as fast as other filters (6 weeks from scratch or kick start in 2 for an established tank.
7)I remember reading on here about them forming the bacteria needed to de nitrify the tanks over time does this actually occur?
Is it a good idea to use blocks behind them like small cubes in a random order or is that over kill?
9)I assume heaters behind are not a bad idea or is the slow flow mean its best to have them in the main body of water?
10) cut size some videos recommend an extra 1cm wide per side so total 2cm others an inch , with thickness of 1" or 2" on others best ones?
11)When end of life do you have to gut the tank to redo or can it be done with fish still in?
12) all the videos I watched used air pumps is a power head better do we have an easy to use formula to work out flow needed?
13) All videos recommended end tank fitting for ease of fit and to help avoid bowing in foam can a full length one be done?
14) Most videos recommended an 1" gap at the bottom others went into drilling the base 2" of uplift pipe for 2-3" up which is best?
Can anyone show some pictures of long term setups I know I saw some brief ones in an article on here but would like to see some more along with further information on common mistakes and little helping tips.
Sorry lots of questions so decided not to hijack someone else's thread
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Re: HMF Questions
Have you read this thread?
Opinions about stirring sand or gravel during weekly water changes?
Towards the middle and end, there is discussion of buying and setting up HMFs. In the end, I elected to wait on changing to HMFs because I was concerned my Panaqolus are not well suited for them: The excess of Panaqolus poop can clog them prematurely and Panaqolus may chew the foam.
If you're in the UK, I believe Ian Fuller (@Coryman) sells the foam there.
Cheers, Eric
Opinions about stirring sand or gravel during weekly water changes?
Towards the middle and end, there is discussion of buying and setting up HMFs. In the end, I elected to wait on changing to HMFs because I was concerned my Panaqolus are not well suited for them: The excess of Panaqolus poop can clog them prematurely and Panaqolus may chew the foam.
If you're in the UK, I believe Ian Fuller (@Coryman) sells the foam there.
Cheers, Eric
Last edited by bekateen on 31 Oct 2015, 23:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HMF Questions
My HMFs have been in operation continuously for 5 years+ at the moment and I've never cleaned them or broken down the tanks that they're in. The only maintenance that I do is siphon along the bottom and up the surface of the fish side when I do water changes, and siphon out the mulm that gathers in behind the filter when it builds up to over 1". (this might be every 4 months or so) I'm not convinced that a power head is necessary as HMFs are great mechanical filters and the bacteriological function of the filter, like many others, will depend on the bacteria/nitrogenous waste products contact time. Friends of mine have tried power heads with no discernable benefit. Sand does not clog them. All mine have been air-powered with excellent results, and in some very over stocked grow-out tanks. Regarding the cut, all mine have been cut to 1/8" greater than the inside width of the side that I used it on. Hope this helps.
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Re: HMF Questions
Thanks couldn't find the thread on search guess searching wrong words. Tablet is not the greatest to use on web at best of times due to size.
Broken down and removed by WC was a very useful bit of information as I don't WC weekly but monthly on my main tanks as I use a bio media to prevent high nitrates. The plants do allot of the work I suspect these days as they are so big and levels are not always high enough for the media to work well. At least according to the test kit so take with a pinch of salt.
The slow flow is something I find interesting as people are always hammering home 10x an hour turn over for some tanks or above which has always seemed excessive to me.
Has anyone ever positioned media behind the foam that requires slow flow and probably a dark environment. I don't mind it being a bit bulkier as I can hide the heater, media I like and use the huge foam surface to protect it. I realise it will need to be raise an couple of inches or put into the uplift somehow. I'm going to contact JBL who make the media on the off chance they find it interesting enough to reply. I'm sure using the media in unintended ways is unsupported.
Has anyone successful run a HMF at a slant so fish can use it as a feeding surface. Thinking cory's here as I realise fish that latch on can probably use it vertical without a problem.
Broken down and removed by WC was a very useful bit of information as I don't WC weekly but monthly on my main tanks as I use a bio media to prevent high nitrates. The plants do allot of the work I suspect these days as they are so big and levels are not always high enough for the media to work well. At least according to the test kit so take with a pinch of salt.
The slow flow is something I find interesting as people are always hammering home 10x an hour turn over for some tanks or above which has always seemed excessive to me.
Has anyone ever positioned media behind the foam that requires slow flow and probably a dark environment. I don't mind it being a bit bulkier as I can hide the heater, media I like and use the huge foam surface to protect it. I realise it will need to be raise an couple of inches or put into the uplift somehow. I'm going to contact JBL who make the media on the off chance they find it interesting enough to reply. I'm sure using the media in unintended ways is unsupported.
Has anyone successful run a HMF at a slant so fish can use it as a feeding surface. Thinking cory's here as I realise fish that latch on can probably use it vertical without a problem.
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Re: HMF Questions
http://www.swisstropicals.com/faq/
Great deal of the information I was looking for on here. I knew I had found it before but forgotten where.
Another link
http://cdas.org.au/main/node/113
Great deal of the information I was looking for on here. I knew I had found it before but forgotten where.
Another link
http://cdas.org.au/main/node/113
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Re: HMF Questions
If you have not found these articles yet, they will answer almost all your above questions.
http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/a ... iltration/
http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/
http://www.swisstropicals.com/faq/
You can use Poret foam in canisters (read the last link above). But as for ideal PPI, in general the 20 ppi is the most versatile. 10 ppi is great to do initial mech filtration but has the least internal surface area. 20 holds a lot more bacteria. At 30 ppi you will clog a lot faster which means cleaning sooner. Higher PPIs even faster still. The higher ppi foam is great for fry and shrimp tanks. For a 3 basket canister I was told to use a 10 ppi followed by two 20 ppi. In a sump I was advised to use 5 slabs all 3 inches thick. A 10 ppi first followed by three 20 ppi and finally a single 30 ppi. I was told to space them 1 inch apart in the sump. I have recently set up my first of 3 all Poret filled canisters.
And it is possible to have denitrification in an established Poret (but this also applies to many filters). All this takes is having it mature to the point where in some parts the oxygen in the water has been used up creating an environment that will support denitrifying bacteria. However, as far as I can tell, this would normally not be sufficient to handle 100% of the nitrate produced in and average tank with no plants. However, it should give one a level of nitrate reduction greater than most other filters not specifically designed to denitrify. If one researches nitrifying biofilms you will discover that there is some degree of denitrification that normally develops deeper inside them all. However, the most efficient denitrification is handled by dedicated low flow filters and live plants.
As for flow rates, it is really all about dwell time. The organisms inside filter media do not actively hunt for nutrients, rather these are delivered to them via circulation. The faster the water moves, the less time there is to extract nutrients from any given "piece" of water. But there is a second consideration, adhesion. The bacteria involved live in bioflims which also anchor them to solid surfaces. This biofilm can become detached from the shear force of current at a certain point. So the stronger the flow, the greater the potential to cause biofilm detachment.
I have only begun converting to Poret foam in the last few years and did not install my first HMF until this year. But I have been using Poret foam cubes instead of traditional sponges for a few years and love them. Poret can also be used as tower filters and corner filters. I am using the HMFs in tanks which hold zebra plecos and L236s. I have another Hypancistrus growout tank filtered sole by Poret cubes. And I prefer to power HMF using pumps over air and using not to use powerheads. I like a variable speed pump for this. If you need extra current with an HMF, use your powerhead for this.
Lastly, an HMF or Poret foam should establish at the same rate as other media. This is done in response to ammonia levels and the other needed nutrients. If you are replacing established filtration with an HMF, simple put in the HMF and let it run a couple of weeks, then remove part of your old media/filters, wait a couple of weeks and remove more. I took about six weeks to complete this process and I normally run 2 -3 filters on tanks. You can speed this up some by rinsing out your old media in the tank where you have put a new Matten, let it suck in this muck.
If you are buying Poret in the states, contact Dr. Tanner at Swiss Tropicals with your questions. He was extremely helpful to me in explaining how things worked and the best configurations as well as how to make the changeover. You can see a huge system using Poret in this vid of the fish house of Discus Hans. You will see it uses massive amounts of Poret in a wet/dry system. In the 5-6 min range you will see some closeups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrIwMs8 ... RA&index=5
http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/a ... iltration/
http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/
http://www.swisstropicals.com/faq/
You can use Poret foam in canisters (read the last link above). But as for ideal PPI, in general the 20 ppi is the most versatile. 10 ppi is great to do initial mech filtration but has the least internal surface area. 20 holds a lot more bacteria. At 30 ppi you will clog a lot faster which means cleaning sooner. Higher PPIs even faster still. The higher ppi foam is great for fry and shrimp tanks. For a 3 basket canister I was told to use a 10 ppi followed by two 20 ppi. In a sump I was advised to use 5 slabs all 3 inches thick. A 10 ppi first followed by three 20 ppi and finally a single 30 ppi. I was told to space them 1 inch apart in the sump. I have recently set up my first of 3 all Poret filled canisters.
And it is possible to have denitrification in an established Poret (but this also applies to many filters). All this takes is having it mature to the point where in some parts the oxygen in the water has been used up creating an environment that will support denitrifying bacteria. However, as far as I can tell, this would normally not be sufficient to handle 100% of the nitrate produced in and average tank with no plants. However, it should give one a level of nitrate reduction greater than most other filters not specifically designed to denitrify. If one researches nitrifying biofilms you will discover that there is some degree of denitrification that normally develops deeper inside them all. However, the most efficient denitrification is handled by dedicated low flow filters and live plants.
As for flow rates, it is really all about dwell time. The organisms inside filter media do not actively hunt for nutrients, rather these are delivered to them via circulation. The faster the water moves, the less time there is to extract nutrients from any given "piece" of water. But there is a second consideration, adhesion. The bacteria involved live in bioflims which also anchor them to solid surfaces. This biofilm can become detached from the shear force of current at a certain point. So the stronger the flow, the greater the potential to cause biofilm detachment.
I have only begun converting to Poret foam in the last few years and did not install my first HMF until this year. But I have been using Poret foam cubes instead of traditional sponges for a few years and love them. Poret can also be used as tower filters and corner filters. I am using the HMFs in tanks which hold zebra plecos and L236s. I have another Hypancistrus growout tank filtered sole by Poret cubes. And I prefer to power HMF using pumps over air and using not to use powerheads. I like a variable speed pump for this. If you need extra current with an HMF, use your powerhead for this.
Lastly, an HMF or Poret foam should establish at the same rate as other media. This is done in response to ammonia levels and the other needed nutrients. If you are replacing established filtration with an HMF, simple put in the HMF and let it run a couple of weeks, then remove part of your old media/filters, wait a couple of weeks and remove more. I took about six weeks to complete this process and I normally run 2 -3 filters on tanks. You can speed this up some by rinsing out your old media in the tank where you have put a new Matten, let it suck in this muck.
If you are buying Poret in the states, contact Dr. Tanner at Swiss Tropicals with your questions. He was extremely helpful to me in explaining how things worked and the best configurations as well as how to make the changeover. You can see a huge system using Poret in this vid of the fish house of Discus Hans. You will see it uses massive amounts of Poret in a wet/dry system. In the 5-6 min range you will see some closeups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrIwMs8 ... RA&index=5
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Re: HMF Questions
That's a really good system on the you tube video.
The bacteria I want I know can exist on media in a slow flow rate but its about 50L an hour from the sachem website. What I'm hoping for is a really tough call so I mite need to do some serious maths before I bug others for time.
Pretty excited as I might be able to get what I need just might lose 1/3-1/2 the tank to the media.
Thanks for the input its difficult for me to understand as it goes so far against the remove everything principle I'm used to thinking under. Really slow flow and the right bacteria is hard for me to understand.
Very small tank I'm starting on.
The bacteria I want I know can exist on media in a slow flow rate but its about 50L an hour from the sachem website. What I'm hoping for is a really tough call so I mite need to do some serious maths before I bug others for time.
Pretty excited as I might be able to get what I need just might lose 1/3-1/2 the tank to the media.
Thanks for the input its difficult for me to understand as it goes so far against the remove everything principle I'm used to thinking under. Really slow flow and the right bacteria is hard for me to understand.
Very small tank I'm starting on.
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Re: HMF Questions
In regards to the "slow flow" principle, make sure you don't compromise oxygenation of the water in the fish-side of the tank. I believe that's what TTA was referring to when he mentioned how to use the power head.
Cheers, Eric
Cheers, Eric
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Re: HMF Questions
Hi all,
I started keeping fish in the 1970's when "aged water" was thought to have all sorts of beneficial properties, and I managed to kill my fish with sickening regularity. It was only when I started changing a lot more water, a lot more regularly, that I stopped killing them. I'd definitely up the amount of water changes.
cheers Darrel
Plants are a great help in nitrate reduction. I'm not a great fan of chemical media, from your other thread <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=42630>. The problem for me is that neither option fully compensates for low volume water changes.JamesFish wrote:Broken down and removed by WC was a very useful bit of information as I don't WC weekly but monthly on my main tanks as I use a bio media to prevent high nitrates. The plants do allot of the work I suspect these days as they are so big and levels are not always high enough for the media to work well. At least according to the test kit so take with a pinch of salt......
I started keeping fish in the 1970's when "aged water" was thought to have all sorts of beneficial properties, and I managed to kill my fish with sickening regularity. It was only when I started changing a lot more water, a lot more regularly, that I stopped killing them. I'd definitely up the amount of water changes.
This is only really for planted tanks with added CO2 (to distribute it around the tank), if you don't add CO2 (I'm not a CO2 user) you can have much lower rates of water turn-over, as long as you retain oxygenation.JamesFish wrote:people are always hammering home 10x an hour turn over for some tanks
I'm not a microbiologist, but I'm dubious that flow rate is very important in regulating microbial communities. Oxygen availability certainly is important, and a HMF is a type of filter where simultaneous aerobic nitrification and anaerobic de-nitrification can occur successfully without risk to your fish, or frequent intervention by the aquarist.JamesFish wrote:The bacteria I want I know can exist on media in a slow flow rate but its about 50L an hour from the sachem website. What I'm hoping for is a really tough call so I mite need to do some serious maths before I bug others for time.
cheers Darrel
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Re: HMF Questions
Just to clarify I'm using a bio method but it does depend on a commercial product which I would like to do away with.
This is from JBL PDF - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 9543,d.ZWU
2. What is biological denitrification?
Biological denitrification is the reduction of nitrate into gaseous nitrogen through
bacteria. This is a phenomenon which has been well-known in agriculture for a long
time and which results in an undesirable nitrogen depletion in the soil. Certain
bacteria are capable of using the oxygen bound in the nitrate molecules for
breathing, and in the process reducing the nitrate into gaseous nitrogen which
eventually escapes into the air. This process is known as denitrification. It can also
be used to remove nitrate from the aquarium.
But since these bacteria will move into action only under very special conditions,
successful denitrification used to require an array of more or less complicated filter
equipment. Among these conditions are an environment very low in oxygen
approaching 0 mg, and the supply of organic food in the form of sugar, alcohol,
organic acids and similar substances. These conditions can be created by extremely
slow-running filters used as bypass to the main filter and the controlled supply of
nutrients. Supplying the food requires reliable controls to prevent the food from being
flushed into the aquarium, with undesirable consequences.
The HMF provides an ideal low up keep filter but the 2nd part of keeping nitrates low for a once a month 50% water change is something I'm looking for. The big rack systems with bulk WC ability I have no doubt are better as the fish are receiving fresh water. Its possible with the right stocking and plants this could be done. However I've never been good at low stock levels or low mess small fish.
When the fish are in the water lots changes not just nitrate levels.
This is from JBL PDF - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 9543,d.ZWU
2. What is biological denitrification?
Biological denitrification is the reduction of nitrate into gaseous nitrogen through
bacteria. This is a phenomenon which has been well-known in agriculture for a long
time and which results in an undesirable nitrogen depletion in the soil. Certain
bacteria are capable of using the oxygen bound in the nitrate molecules for
breathing, and in the process reducing the nitrate into gaseous nitrogen which
eventually escapes into the air. This process is known as denitrification. It can also
be used to remove nitrate from the aquarium.
But since these bacteria will move into action only under very special conditions,
successful denitrification used to require an array of more or less complicated filter
equipment. Among these conditions are an environment very low in oxygen
approaching 0 mg, and the supply of organic food in the form of sugar, alcohol,
organic acids and similar substances. These conditions can be created by extremely
slow-running filters used as bypass to the main filter and the controlled supply of
nutrients. Supplying the food requires reliable controls to prevent the food from being
flushed into the aquarium, with undesirable consequences.
The HMF provides an ideal low up keep filter but the 2nd part of keeping nitrates low for a once a month 50% water change is something I'm looking for. The big rack systems with bulk WC ability I have no doubt are better as the fish are receiving fresh water. Its possible with the right stocking and plants this could be done. However I've never been good at low stock levels or low mess small fish.
When the fish are in the water lots changes not just nitrate levels.
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Re: HMF Questions
For the sachem one
"Plastic bio-materials provide only external surface area, whereas Matrix™ provides both external and internal macroporous surface area. These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. "
From http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... atrix.html
"Plastic bio-materials provide only external surface area, whereas Matrix™ provides both external and internal macroporous surface area. These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. "
From http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... atrix.html
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Re: HMF Questions
Hi all,
There is very little money to be made in telling aquarists that plants, a substrate and time will create a healthy, resilient stable tank. On the other hand special filter media, chemical media, denitrification coils etc all have to be bought, and my personal opinion is that a lot of the advertising for these products is at best disingenuous.
A HMF can fulfill the role of both substrate and filter, but it is a special situation.
There is nothing wrong with Matrix, but there isn't anything special about it either. Pumice is a good filter media, it doesn't make any difference if the box says Matrix or Pumice. Pore space is a "red herring", any planted tank will have a huge amount of potential sites for nitrification.
The prime metric for Biological filtration is dissolved oxygen.
cheers Darrel
The thing is that in a planted tank the plants will deplete the nitrate (NO3), and also take up NH4+, PO4---, K+ etc. As well as the plants effect on the water column, there is the interaction between the plant roots and the substrate in the rhizosphere. You don't need special media in your filter, you just need a substrate. Plant roots are leaky structures, and plants have evolved a huge range of mutualistic or symbiotic relationships with fungi, bacteria and actinomycetes.JamesFish wrote:Biological denitrification is the reduction of nitrate into gaseous nitrogen through bacteria.....This process is known as denitrification. It can also
be used to remove nitrate from the aquarium. But since these bacteria will move into action only under very special conditions, successful denitrification used to require an array of more or less complicated filter equipment.
There is very little money to be made in telling aquarists that plants, a substrate and time will create a healthy, resilient stable tank. On the other hand special filter media, chemical media, denitrification coils etc all have to be bought, and my personal opinion is that a lot of the advertising for these products is at best disingenuous.
A HMF can fulfill the role of both substrate and filter, but it is a special situation.
JamesFish wrote:For the seachem one:
"Plastic bio-materials provide only external surface area, whereas Matrix™ provides both external and internal macroporous surface area. These macropores are ideally sized for the support of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. This allows Matrix™, unlike other forms of biomedia, to remove nitrate along with ammonia and nitrite, simultaneously and in the same filter. " From http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... atrix.html
There is nothing wrong with Matrix, but there isn't anything special about it either. Pumice is a good filter media, it doesn't make any difference if the box says Matrix or Pumice. Pore space is a "red herring", any planted tank will have a huge amount of potential sites for nitrification.
The prime metric for Biological filtration is dissolved oxygen.
cheers Darrel
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Re: HMF Questions
about 4 years ago I bought a meter cube of poret foam in various ppis. For biological filtration, you can not convince me there is anything better. Mechanical filtration is another story. Almost all of my tanks have HMF fiters Those that don't use poret in HOB style filters. In many of my larger tanks, I periodically add a HOB filter to "polish" the tank. The HOB filters are set up with fiber batting to increase the mechanical filtration, or the flow rate or both. Where I have a species that benifits from additional water movement I will add a power head or a water fan style pump. I will usually do a major cleaning on a tank or two per month.
To do a major cleaning, you can remove the filter material and rinse it in a utility sink, or you can remove all the fish, plants, and structure drain, the tank, take a hose and configure the stream to high pressure and spay out the foam right in the tank.
Drain the tank and repeat. usually twice is enough, in smaller tanks, I prefer to do it this way, in the larger tanks i will remove the filter and spay it out in a sink.
To do a major cleaning, you can remove the filter material and rinse it in a utility sink, or you can remove all the fish, plants, and structure drain, the tank, take a hose and configure the stream to high pressure and spay out the foam right in the tank.
Drain the tank and repeat. usually twice is enough, in smaller tanks, I prefer to do it this way, in the larger tanks i will remove the filter and spay it out in a sink.
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Re: HMF Questions
The one thing made clear to me by Dr. Tanner when I began the process of converting to HMFs and Poret cube filters was his "dislike" of filter floss. Here is what he wrote back when I said I was converting Eheim canisters to use Poret and wondered about the final floss pad that would be the last thing through which the filtered water would pass:
As somebody who has used a ton of floss in almost all my filters for years, it has been hard for me to give it up. In tanks where I am still relying on H.O.B.s or canisters with standard loading, I still use floss. But I have come to the conclusion that floss is more necessary the less bio-media one has. For H.O.B.s there is never enough media, so floss is the only way to deal with the dissolved solids. But this also means your filter is not as effective/efficient as a much larger HMF or similar volumes of high quality bio-media. I can also tell you that, when I do have to rinse the cubes they are really heavy, they are filled with organics. The same is not the case for hydro sponges or most other bio-media.
In a word, after one gains the advantage of closely controlled pores sizes combined with a rigid long lasting foam, by using enough of it one can handle most of the mechanical filtration needs biologically. There is no floss in nature, there is no weekly media rinsing in nature what there is is porosity and biology. There is no reason not to take advantage of this in tanks where we can.
The problems with most filters is that they are designed to do more than filtration and they are too small in terms of how much media they hold. If a filter must serve as a current/circulation creating device and an oxygenation device, then it cannot also be the optimal filtration design. The result is we must compensate by doing more work. We clean media more often and we swap out floss regularly.
While I do like the HMF and the principles behind it, not all tanks are suited for this form of filtration. This is especially true for smaller or display type tanks where there is not enough space.
While a well planted tank with a solidly established substrate offers great filtration capacity, such a design is basically useless in tanks when one has a bare bottom and/or no plants because they are not wanted or because they wont work. Of my 18 currently running tanks, only 3 contain lots of plants rooted in a deep substrate. A couple more have plants but mostly not in the substrate which is very shallow. I used to have many more, but the plants made a lot more work for me in terms of maint. They need pruning, fertilizing and created special problems of their own. Try catching a fish in a well planted tank, try even spotting them in some cases.
As for how much tank space I have lost using HMFs, I can offer these facts. In the 20 gal. long tank which is 30 inches long, I have a 2 inch thick Poret and use air power. So the space behind the foam is about 2 inches and I lose 4/30 or well under 15%. On a 48 inch 33 long tank I have a 3 inch thick foam and use a pump to power it. This takes up 6 inches, so I lose 6/48 or well under 15% again. My new experimental design using a pair of 2 inch thick foams at opposite ends of the tank and two pumps for powering them, will take up about 10 inches which is about 21%. But it gives me the flow I want to blow across cave mouths plus 1/3 more filtration capacity. I should mention that I make custom spraybar returns for the pumps rather than using a single stream. I am trying to maximize oxygenation for plecos this way.
What he explained to me was that in a fully established HMF what happens to the organic particles was that, as they passed through the foam, they are biologically broken down. largely consumed and become ever smaller "pieces" until finally all that is left is a minimal amount of extremely tiny particles which are removed with one's weekly water changes. What I can report is, in two tanks running HMF and a third tank which uses exclusively Poret foam cubes, I regularly vacuum a lot of debris from the bottom, especially in the tanks with wood, but the water itself is always crystal clear.To your questions:
I never recommend to put floss in canisters (or any other filter), the stuff just collapses and then clogs the filter much sooner than the rest of media. I would run the canisters solely on 10/20 ppi foams. Start with 10 and then the rest all 20. The goal is to run them as long as possible.
As somebody who has used a ton of floss in almost all my filters for years, it has been hard for me to give it up. In tanks where I am still relying on H.O.B.s or canisters with standard loading, I still use floss. But I have come to the conclusion that floss is more necessary the less bio-media one has. For H.O.B.s there is never enough media, so floss is the only way to deal with the dissolved solids. But this also means your filter is not as effective/efficient as a much larger HMF or similar volumes of high quality bio-media. I can also tell you that, when I do have to rinse the cubes they are really heavy, they are filled with organics. The same is not the case for hydro sponges or most other bio-media.
In a word, after one gains the advantage of closely controlled pores sizes combined with a rigid long lasting foam, by using enough of it one can handle most of the mechanical filtration needs biologically. There is no floss in nature, there is no weekly media rinsing in nature what there is is porosity and biology. There is no reason not to take advantage of this in tanks where we can.
The problems with most filters is that they are designed to do more than filtration and they are too small in terms of how much media they hold. If a filter must serve as a current/circulation creating device and an oxygenation device, then it cannot also be the optimal filtration design. The result is we must compensate by doing more work. We clean media more often and we swap out floss regularly.
While I do like the HMF and the principles behind it, not all tanks are suited for this form of filtration. This is especially true for smaller or display type tanks where there is not enough space.
While a well planted tank with a solidly established substrate offers great filtration capacity, such a design is basically useless in tanks when one has a bare bottom and/or no plants because they are not wanted or because they wont work. Of my 18 currently running tanks, only 3 contain lots of plants rooted in a deep substrate. A couple more have plants but mostly not in the substrate which is very shallow. I used to have many more, but the plants made a lot more work for me in terms of maint. They need pruning, fertilizing and created special problems of their own. Try catching a fish in a well planted tank, try even spotting them in some cases.
As for how much tank space I have lost using HMFs, I can offer these facts. In the 20 gal. long tank which is 30 inches long, I have a 2 inch thick Poret and use air power. So the space behind the foam is about 2 inches and I lose 4/30 or well under 15%. On a 48 inch 33 long tank I have a 3 inch thick foam and use a pump to power it. This takes up 6 inches, so I lose 6/48 or well under 15% again. My new experimental design using a pair of 2 inch thick foams at opposite ends of the tank and two pumps for powering them, will take up about 10 inches which is about 21%. But it gives me the flow I want to blow across cave mouths plus 1/3 more filtration capacity. I should mention that I make custom spraybar returns for the pumps rather than using a single stream. I am trying to maximize oxygenation for plecos this way.
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Re: HMF Questions
Well said. The longer I keep fish in aquaria, the more I come to appreciate the separation of filtration from circulation.TwoTankAmin wrote:The problems with most filters is that they are designed to do more than filtration and they are too small in terms of how much media they hold. If a filter must serve as a current/circulation creating device and an oxygenation device, then it cannot also be the optimal filtration design. The result is we must compensate by doing more work. We clean media more often and we swap out floss regularly.
Cheers, Eric
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Re: HMF Questions
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
I'm a believer in this. The only difference is that I like to keep the PPI10 sponge as pre-filter on the filter intake (for canister filters), and then keep it fairly clean.I never recommend to put floss in canisters (or any other filter), the stuff just collapses and then clogs the filter much sooner than the rest of media. I would run the canisters solely on 10/20 ppi foams. Start with 10 and then the rest all 20. The goal is to run them as long as possible.
They are separate processes.bekateen wrote:Well said. The longer I keep fish in aquaria, the more I come to appreciate the separation of filtration from circulation.
cheers Darrel
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Re: HMF Questions
Well £18 got me a 20x20" sheet of black hmf filter foam from ebay to the door. Probably not the same grade as Swisstropicals but allot more straight forward. I went for 20ppi after advice on here and have to say it looks like a huge chunky piece of standard filter foam to the untrained eye.
£5 got me a 2m length of 25mm white PVC pipe and 2 bends. I already have a hack saw and a drill so don't count them in cost of filter. I have an air stone that cost £2 and air pumps already so no further outlay but the cost of this filter is starting to go up for a single tank. They undoubtable scale better as the costs per tank would probably go down.
£5 got me a 2m length of 25mm white PVC pipe and 2 bends. I already have a hack saw and a drill so don't count them in cost of filter. I have an air stone that cost £2 and air pumps already so no further outlay but the cost of this filter is starting to go up for a single tank. They undoubtable scale better as the costs per tank would probably go down.
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Re: HMF Questions
Just a few observations-
Poret, or any comparable product, is a rigid foam as opposed to the more traditional forms of soft sponge. It is this rigidity which allows for the tight and accurate control of pore sizes. This makes it more expensive to produce.
Most other sponges will break down with time- a matter of a few years. Quality rigid foam can go strong for over a decade or more.
Most filters need to be cleaned regularly. Porets get cleaned very infrequently. Our time has value.
HMFs, by how they work, make using filter floss unnecessary, saving more money.
By example: On a 20 gal. long tank I had 2 Aquaclear filters- a 150 and a 100 gph. The price for these today would be about $60. I replaced these with a 2 inch thick Poret with a jet lifter for $22. I already had an air pump but had I needed to purchase one, another $15. So I am looking at $60 vs $37 and then 50% -60% less weekly work and no need to replace media of any sort.
Poret, or any comparable product, is a rigid foam as opposed to the more traditional forms of soft sponge. It is this rigidity which allows for the tight and accurate control of pore sizes. This makes it more expensive to produce.
Most other sponges will break down with time- a matter of a few years. Quality rigid foam can go strong for over a decade or more.
Most filters need to be cleaned regularly. Porets get cleaned very infrequently. Our time has value.
HMFs, by how they work, make using filter floss unnecessary, saving more money.
By example: On a 20 gal. long tank I had 2 Aquaclear filters- a 150 and a 100 gph. The price for these today would be about $60. I replaced these with a 2 inch thick Poret with a jet lifter for $22. I already had an air pump but had I needed to purchase one, another $15. So I am looking at $60 vs $37 and then 50% -60% less weekly work and no need to replace media of any sort.
Last edited by TwoTankAmin on 02 Dec 2015, 05:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HMF Questions
I have 3 externals 2 in use 1 uses filter wool / floss the other doesn't. I prefer the JBL's to the eheim ecco design for this and other reasons. The JBLS follow more a HMF style. Its foam getting smaller pores till it hits a polishing foam as they call it.
Brief update the foam is in but bows out about 2-2+1/2 inches at top middle wondering if I should trip the top a little so it goes back easier or will the water do this for me?
The tanks still empty so have plenty of play time with it. Well till the weekend when its moved into place and filled up.
Twotank is correct a direct comparison to a standard internal filter in price off the shelf is not fair on this system.
Brief update the foam is in but bows out about 2-2+1/2 inches at top middle wondering if I should trip the top a little so it goes back easier or will the water do this for me?
The tanks still empty so have plenty of play time with it. Well till the weekend when its moved into place and filled up.
Twotank is correct a direct comparison to a standard internal filter in price off the shelf is not fair on this system.
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Re: HMF Questions
You can cut Poret. That said, in one 20 gal. long with a 2 inch thich 20 ppi foam, I have a bow. It is perhaps an inch max. However, the other two foams were cut more to the exact size and they have no bow. However, I only have the bow because of the illustrations here http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/mattenfilter/
I am using these filter on pleco spawning and growout tanks. For the former I want more flow and I use pumps rather than air power. I make diy spraybars which also increases the surface agitation. I also have 10 assorted Poret cube filters on other tanks all air powered.
I am using these filter on pleco spawning and growout tanks. For the former I want more flow and I use pumps rather than air power. I make diy spraybars which also increases the surface agitation. I also have 10 assorted Poret cube filters on other tanks all air powered.
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Re: HMF Questions
Did a little cut and it was a wonky cut on my part causing the issues now its a little wavy but okay.
Filled the tank and the output from a air pump is surprising. Despite the air stone being a tight fit in my view its lifting a good amount of water guess I still have a further learning curve to go. No fish in yet but will people know how it goes.
Despite 1 end of the tank being ugly with a slim packer in place it does overall not look to bad as no wires going in the tank, pipes, or big canister sitting next to the tank. Oh and it hides the heater nicely. I always struggle to hide them!
Filled the tank and the output from a air pump is surprising. Despite the air stone being a tight fit in my view its lifting a good amount of water guess I still have a further learning curve to go. No fish in yet but will people know how it goes.
Despite 1 end of the tank being ugly with a slim packer in place it does overall not look to bad as no wires going in the tank, pipes, or big canister sitting next to the tank. Oh and it hides the heater nicely. I always struggle to hide them!
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Re: HMF Questions
Hi All,
In some other threads on this site (with a link to the subject listed earlier in this thread), mention has been made that certain plecos have a habit of chewing on HM foam. While that may not pose a problem for all spp, it seems to be more important for large species and for fish like Panaques (and should I infer by extension the Panaqolus too, or any other wood eaters? I don't know). Anyway, here's another HM-filter question for you:
Does anybody bother to place plastic grids or screens over the front of their HM foam in order to prevent plecos from chewing on that foam? If so, how is it working for you (and do you have a photo to share); if not and you have any of these munching plecos, why not?
Thanks, Eric
In some other threads on this site (with a link to the subject listed earlier in this thread), mention has been made that certain plecos have a habit of chewing on HM foam. While that may not pose a problem for all spp, it seems to be more important for large species and for fish like Panaques (and should I infer by extension the Panaqolus too, or any other wood eaters? I don't know). Anyway, here's another HM-filter question for you:
Does anybody bother to place plastic grids or screens over the front of their HM foam in order to prevent plecos from chewing on that foam? If so, how is it working for you (and do you have a photo to share); if not and you have any of these munching plecos, why not?
Thanks, Eric
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Re: HMF Questions
I was thinking also in investing in some of the corner filters, but me too would be considering putting them to use in Panoquolus tanks, one of which has 8 L397s. Another with only 2, Panoquolus Albomaculatus, possibly more may follow for this tank. I am due to add to my Panaqolus population by 6 Panoquolus Albivermis very soon. Obviously they can potentially clog up filters with sawdust if its not done right, and then there's the possibility of them eating the foam. An external for example could deal with the mechanical removal if circulation pumps are in put the right places. But it would also be helpful to know if there's a way to prevent them munching on the foam. As still some sawdust, not poop necessarily, but rather what comes away when they scrape the wood will collect on the surface, I should think. In my opinion, this will attract them even moreso to chew on the foam.
Thanks Teresa
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Re: HMF Questions
Have not done it, but here are what I would think is an issue and how to get around it. HMF work because all the organic waste gets sucked in and over time broken down into ever smaller pieces until it comes out the back side. if one places a screen or fine mesh on the "intake" side. it will clog and that will then cause the filter to clog and not worm.
So what I would suggest here is to use a piece of plastic egg crate. This should stop the plecos but minimally inhibit flow through the HMF.
So what I would suggest here is to use a piece of plastic egg crate. This should stop the plecos but minimally inhibit flow through the HMF.
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Re: HMF Questions
Thanks TTA I have four times 4×1×1 ft tanks. 3 of which I was thinking of using as breeders for my various Panaqolus Species tanks are not too deep so easy access. So far it seems I have 2 males out of my 8 L397s, i think 6 females, but it's not a definite, as a couple are still not definitively sexable. A pair of LDA031s, and I'm due to collect 6 L204s soon. I would most likely thin the numbers out once I have a good sex ratio of them. So at the very least male ratios are safe in terms of potential territorial implications, I'm thinking of using these as my breeders, but with the other tank as a sump for the biological filtration aspect , and the mechanical aspect with externals going to each tank. This is another option but right now it's obviously not clear cut. I'd be interested to know how your sump set up works, if I find in the future this is another option.
Thanks Teresa
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Re: HMF Questions
Thanks TTA.
Yes, the product you show, or something like it, is what I had in mind. And yes, it would require routine maintenance (vacuuming and maybe occasional rinsing) to keep the holes clear. It seems to me that a product like this would solve the chewing (but not also the accelerated clogging from all the wood poop - that's a different matter).
Cheers, Eric
Yes, the product you show, or something like it, is what I had in mind. And yes, it would require routine maintenance (vacuuming and maybe occasional rinsing) to keep the holes clear. It seems to me that a product like this would solve the chewing (but not also the accelerated clogging from all the wood poop - that's a different matter).
Cheers, Eric
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Re: HMF Questions
I was also thinking, can a thin layer of foam be placed in front that can be cleaned more frequently that can collect the more fibrous sawdust. I've so far not looked into it much to know exactly how it would work, with this as a possibility.
Thanks Teresa
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Re: HMF Questions
yw eric.
I doubt the foam will clog all that fast. I do find that my wood naturally breaks down and that puts an additional load on the Matten. I do occasionally siphon the front side in one tank in particular. But my plecos tanks have a lot of wood plus rock and slate in them. Based in the instructions that an HMF needs to be cleaned when the water level behind it is lower than that in the tank, I have not come close to clogging one. I assume this also applies to a corner Matten.
I would love to know how that sump works as well. It has been a conspiracy. The tank and sump and homemade stand have been in place for way too long without being put into use. About 2 years ago I set up a temp 50 gal. in front of it. Now it is a 50 over a 40B in the way. Every time I think I am scaling back, something comes up and I find myself adding temporary tanks. Most of the problem relates to spawning plecos or finding something new I have wanted for a long time.
One thing I did get working was the twin HMF design somewhere in the thread. I put it on the L173b tank. It is working great and I have had at least one spawn since it went in. In my case, it upgraded the total amount of foam from 3 to 4 inches, but half at each end of the tank. There is no reason one could not use 3 inches at each end.
Also, one can use more than one sheet choosing two different ppis. Apparently one can glue them together. For example, you could have a 10 ppi follwed by a 3 inch 20 ppi. The first foam catches the larger stuff and as it breaks down only smaller pieces hit the 20 ppi.
I would suggest you email Stephan Tanner at Swiss Tropicals and ask for his thoughts. He is Mr. Poret, a pleco breeder and very willing to help. So far all of his suggestions I have followed have worked out great. I ran the twin Matten design by him before I installed it.
I doubt the foam will clog all that fast. I do find that my wood naturally breaks down and that puts an additional load on the Matten. I do occasionally siphon the front side in one tank in particular. But my plecos tanks have a lot of wood plus rock and slate in them. Based in the instructions that an HMF needs to be cleaned when the water level behind it is lower than that in the tank, I have not come close to clogging one. I assume this also applies to a corner Matten.
I would love to know how that sump works as well. It has been a conspiracy. The tank and sump and homemade stand have been in place for way too long without being put into use. About 2 years ago I set up a temp 50 gal. in front of it. Now it is a 50 over a 40B in the way. Every time I think I am scaling back, something comes up and I find myself adding temporary tanks. Most of the problem relates to spawning plecos or finding something new I have wanted for a long time.
One thing I did get working was the twin HMF design somewhere in the thread. I put it on the L173b tank. It is working great and I have had at least one spawn since it went in. In my case, it upgraded the total amount of foam from 3 to 4 inches, but half at each end of the tank. There is no reason one could not use 3 inches at each end.
Also, one can use more than one sheet choosing two different ppis. Apparently one can glue them together. For example, you could have a 10 ppi follwed by a 3 inch 20 ppi. The first foam catches the larger stuff and as it breaks down only smaller pieces hit the 20 ppi.
I would suggest you email Stephan Tanner at Swiss Tropicals and ask for his thoughts. He is Mr. Poret, a pleco breeder and very willing to help. So far all of his suggestions I have followed have worked out great. I ran the twin Matten design by him before I installed it.
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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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Re: HMF Questions
Thanks I will email him and find out what my options are. The three tanks will all go above on a rack but there is enough room for one to be used as a sump underneath the rack at floor level.
Thanks Teresa
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Re: HMF Questions
Hi all,
There is now a guy in the UK selling HMF foam and "jetlifters", <http://www.fishphilosophy.co.uk/>. I don't know whether it is Poret foam <http://www.emw.de/en/aquaristikfilter.html>
The German suppliers of the jetlifters are Beck & Harich <http://www.luftheber-shop.de/>.
cheers Darrel
There is now a guy in the UK selling HMF foam and "jetlifters", <http://www.fishphilosophy.co.uk/>. I don't know whether it is Poret foam <http://www.emw.de/en/aquaristikfilter.html>
The German suppliers of the jetlifters are Beck & Harich <http://www.luftheber-shop.de/>.
cheers Darrel