Juvenile tiger shovelnose

[coelacanth]

I had one for years and he grew to about 30" and lived just fine in a 265 gal. tank with a large Clown Knife and a Black Arowanna.I would probably still have him had he not leaped out of the tank.

'Lived just fine' is not what I would say about a fish that did not manage to reach what should be the adult size and then jumped out of the aquarium.
Whatever the reason the fish jumped out of the tank, the very fact that it jumped shows that there were deficiencies in the housing.
Whenever I have had fish jump out of aquaria, it is purely down to the fact that I did not take enough care of the requirements of the species concerned. If a fish has the potential to jump, then enough safeguards should be in place to prevent this becoming a terminal incident, and the potential causes of jumping should be removed to as great a degree as possible.
A TSN is a powerful swimmer designed to migrate huge distances, including up some serious rapids, this means they have ample ability to jump from an uncovered aquarium. Their reponse to any perceived threat is to swim away as quickly as possible, and if there is insufficient space in the aquarium for the 'flight distance' then the result will be either an impact with the side of the aquarium or one-way trip up and out.

[PeacockBass]

I had one for years and he grew to about 30" and lived just fine in a 265 gal. tank with a large Clown Knife and a Black Arowanna.I would probably still have him had he not leaped out of the tank.

'Lived just fine' is not what I would say about a fish that did not manage to reach what should be the adult size and then jumped out of the aquarium.
Whatever the reason the fish jumped out of the tank, the very fact that it jumped shows that there were deficiencies in the housing.
Whenever I have had fish jump out of aquaria, it is purely down to the fact that I did not take enough care of the requirements of the species concerned. If a fish has the potential to jump, then enough safeguards should be in place to prevent this becoming a terminal incident, and the potential causes of jumping should be removed to as great a degree as possible.
A TSN is a powerful swimmer designed to migrate huge distances, including up some serious rapids, this means they have ample ability to jump from an uncovered aquarium. Their reponse to any perceived threat is to swim away as quickly as possible, and if there is insufficient space in the aquarium for the 'flight distance' then the result will be either an impact with the side of the aquarium or one-way trip up and out.

I totaly agree. you speak the words from my mouth.. except you have much better grammer and spelling.

[coelacanth]

I totaly agree. you speak the words from my mouth.. except you have much better grammer and spelling.

Thankyou!

[general-sherman]

i agree also. no fish that is "totally fine" jumps out of the tank.

[khmerrecorder]

i just found out that my fish will go crazy big i am scared that my 155 gallon will not be able to house this gigantic beast. I have a 6x3x2 and from what i have been hearing that is not the least able to handle my tiger shovenose. in the future i am going to make a custom glass for him. Good or bad?

[Silurus]

What would be the size of the custom tank?

[khmerrecorder]

i don't know i have the resources to make it pretty large but i want it to be at least 3 feet high i can't really quite sure judge the dimensions since i cannot truly know how big the sucker will get. From what im thinking it should be big. and the thing about it swiming vertically will it do that at its largest size because i gonna need to make it tall as well.

[Silurus]

Assume the fish will reach its maximum size (about 40") and plan accordingly.

[deepblue]

I realize this is probably a dead topic by now but since I've just read it, it's new to me! ...and I can't help but add my voice to the already resounding chorus of protest. Sorry, El Gordo, but I have to agree with the majority of other respondents. Keeping a TSN in a 100 gallon tank is just plain cruel. Please keep in mind: I'm not capping on you personally. I'm sure you're a very nice person. You share my fascination with these large cats so you obviously have good tastes, but perhaps not good judgement. Just be realistic. Keeping a tankbuster in a coffin in which it can't even turn around is inhumane.

Most of these replys are somewhat comical. I have had tiger shovelnoses for years with no ill effects. I agree that these fish do grow large but so do red tail cats, pangasius cats and I am not aware of too many people housing a minimum of 1000 gallon tank in their homes to care for these monsters..

I personally don't find anything comical about the sound advice that others before me have tried to give you. If you've had TSN's for years where are they all now? Why don't you still have them? Others who do not properly care for such 'monsters' as you've listed are wrong too. I like the way coelacanth put it:

If a fish has no opportunity to show this [normal] behaviour, or demonstrate why it has the appearance that so fascinates us, then what's the point?

Exactly. What is the point? IT CAN'T SWIM. I have been more mesmorized watching some dwarf cichlids swimming merrily in a 55g, interacting with one another naturally, without being spooked or infringed upon in any way, than I ever could be by just looking at an overgrown catfish sitting miserably on the bottom of an undersized enclosure.

I had one and he... lived just fine... had he not leaped out of the tank.

urr... yeah. You got one TSN to commit suicide and now you've went and got another. way to go! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found that to be an impossible contradiction. here's an idea: unless you have the space, and stability, for a permanent fixture such as a basement pond, and the resolve to keep the species properly maintained for over 2 decades DON'T GET IT! I'm begging you. Don't get me wrong, I love big cats. In fact, I've wanted a RTC and TSN for longer than I can remember. I see them in the store and I want to take 'em home soooo bad, but never do. I always resist because I don't want to support the industry that offers these fish up to torment as outlined in this thread. Also, until I can buy a house of my own (and install that basement pond) I know I'd be guilty of the same crime.
I'd also like to say something to those who buy these fish thinking, "I'm gonna get a 240g" or "by the time he outgrows this I'll build a pond" etc... My advice (no, my plea) to you is this: WAIT. Just wait until you have the setup set up to house the specimen for its lifetime before purchasing. They will still be available. I Promise. Otherwise, inevitably, he'll be ready for that upgrade before you are... or before you're able to provide it.
My last point (finally, right?) is to those who've suggested, or endorsed, eating your fish once it's outgrown it's living space (and I'm surprised Silurus didn't speak to this). FISH KEPT IN AQUARIUMS SHOULD NEVER BE EATEN!!!

And very good eating, too, from my experiences in Manaus.

I'm sure it is good eating when the fish is freshly wild caught. They are a food source for many indigenous people. However, eating a fish that's lived out it's existence in a finite enclosure, with an infinitely higher concentration of it's own waste (vs. it's natural ecosystem in the wild) is wrong for many reasons. Heres two: 1) It's gross. Who wants to eat a fish that's been swimming around in it's own crap? It will, undoubtedly, taste like... well, poo. No matter how good your filtration and how frequent your water changes it's impossible to simulate nature's life cycle. The Amazon discharges more than 52 billion gallons of water, daily. 2) However, the most important reason not to eat your fish is for health and safety concerns. Most everything you put into your aquarium is, in some way/degree, a carcinogen (causes cancer). I'm looking at the label of one popular, and effective, treatment for Ick and other external parasites. It reads (in bold caps): THIS PRODUCT IS INTENDED FOR THE EXCLUSIVE USE WITH ORNAMENTAL FISH AND/OR OTHER ORNAMENTAL ORGANISMS AND IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH FISH FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. No disrespect, Silurus, but it is irresponsible to, in any way, support/advise/promote/condone/validate the eating of fish kept as pets. I'm sure this was not your intention as, it sounds to me, you were speaking of your personal experience eating these fish within the context and balance of nature.
So Gordo, I know this is old news and you've probably already acquired your TSN; or made the right/wise/ethical decision not to get one, or postpone it's acquisition until it can be properly housed, but I hope you will give serious consideration to what the fish wants, needs. Think about its health and well-being for its entire life. By the way, this makes me wonder, why did you lose your jardini?

[general-sherman]

Hear, hear. My sentiments exactly.

[Felix]

El Gordo has been getting quite a bit of abuse. Many points have been well made. However, a few somewhat rhetorical questions:

1. What is El Gordo (or Kmerrecorder, or anyone who buys one of these fish) to do when he/she/they discover that their large tank (I still have trouble adjusting to how small a 55 really is) just isn't going to cut it for the neat fish that they thought would be housed comfortably? After all, they now own the thing, and presumably feel some responsibility toward it. What are their realistic options other than being excoriated on forums like this?

2. TSN's are not unique. In fact, many people probably buy them thinking they're just a color variant of the Lima. But what about other fish, such as Arowanas? Muskies? Bass? Channel cats? Or the various large and grumpy CA cichlids? People do in fact buy them because they're different, big, and maybe mean. What is the humane recourse of people who find themselves housing fish that they discover they can't really maintain?

3. How much of the criticism of El Gordo is also valid toward anyone who keeps fish in an aquarium? Is a slightly nicer cell still not just a cell? Not many of us are able to divert a small river to run through our acrylic walls. I am certainly not arguing that there do not exist better and worse ways of keeping fish or any other animals. However, most of us who keep aquaria have way too much glass around us to hurl stones too aggressively.

On a more constructive note, is there any recognized/reputable avenue for people to dispose of fish that for whatever reason can no longer be cared for by their owner? Are we better or worse off than cat & dog owners who die/relocate/become ill, old, or unemployed? If not, how can we make it so?

[coelacanth]

What is anyone who buys one of these fish to do when he/she/they discover that their large tank (I still have trouble adjusting to how small a 55 really is) just isn't going to cut it for the neat fish that they thought would be housed comfortably?

It is very simple to find out beforehand. If the individual can't be bothered to find husbandry information out in advance they probably should restrict themselves to keeping pet rocks or something (sorry for being slightly facetious but there is NO excuse for people to find themselves in this position).

After all, they now own the thing, and presumably feel some responsibility toward it.

If feeling responsible was a factor here, the situation would not have arisen.

What is the humane recourse of people who find themselves housing fish that they discover they can't really maintain?

They could first go back to the shop where they obtained it at the busiest time, and make a huge commotion over it. If this happened a few times then lost trade would help push rogue traders in the right direction. Also they could contact their equivalent of Trading Standards, make some noise there. There is always the option of contacting Public Aquaria to see if they can re-house the fish, but people should not be surprised in this situation if they get treated with barely-concealed scorn.

How much of the criticism of El Gordo is also valid toward anyone who keeps fish in an aquarium? Is a slightly nicer cell still not just a cell?

There are criticisms that can be directed at the keeping of all animals in 'captivity', but there are also strong arguments in favour of having companion animals, pets, study specimens in enclosed housing, or any of the other potential terms used to describe 'captive' animals. These arguments range from beneficial effects on the emotional health of the humans, greater appreciation of biodiversity, conservation, behavioural studies, ecological studies, and many, many others.
Zoos in the US and Europe have guidelines relating to environmental enrichment for the species they keep, these could be used as a useful guide for the private aquarist.

[Felix]

Well,"caveat emptor" may be a good policy, and advance research is admirable. If life were that straight and narrow there would no doubt be less stress in the world. I don't know anything about the practices of tropical fish selling & keeping in the UK, but over here there are few rules, and no qualifications. I can walk into any fish store at any given time and find tsn's arowana, gars, pacus (very popular), channel cats, piranhas, parrot fish, crayfish, as well as other weird hybrids and odd creatures. The teen-ager making minimum wage isn't likely to be of much help to the real or relative novice who likes the idea of keeping fish. Then there is the whole on-line purchasing network. Moreover, there are many ways of obtaining "inappropriate" fish. Check out Tammy's post over in Asian catfish. Not an uncommon scenario. So when a person comes to a forum like this for information -- however belatedly -- all they can expect is a lot of sanctimonius attitudes and little or no helpful advice?

[Dinyar]

What kind of info would be useful to someone who has a fish that is much too big to possibly keep in a home aquarium?

[deepblue]

i don't believe anyone is trying to be sanctimonius. simply, there are a lot of people with very strong feelings on the subject. i think what everyone is trying to say is: DON'T BUY THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE... because once you do there is very little you can do to get rid of them. perhaps if people stopped buying them the market would dry up. stores would be stuck w/ ballooning redtails and shovenose. they'd stop ordering them. pretty soon, importers would stop importing them. and they wouldn't be available to every newb who happens to walk through the door of Mom & Pops fish shop. true, i don't think importation of these species will ever stop completely. but with a more concienscious and aware consumer base it could be curbed significantly. this would keep them out of untrained/uninformed (and unprepared) hands.

Trouble is I think that many of these youngsters are now farm bred, in some cases I'm pretty sure what we get are just surplus fingerlings from foodfish aquaculture,

i can't say whether that's true or not; but i do ask everytime i see them (TSN's) in my lfs. so far, they've been wild caught every time! ...which makes this sitaution all the more tragic, IMO.

[general-sherman]

The point certainly is DON'T BUY THEM! There are plenty of more viable alternatives to 4-ft-long monsters...TSN=Pimelodus ornatus and so on. Like Deepblue said, I believe if people stop buying these fish shops will stop offering them for sale.
And as far as the cruelty issue goes...It damn well IS cruel to house tankbusters in unsuitable size enclosures. Its cruel for so many other animals too.
I try to limit my fish size to 1ft and under, so far its working out very well. I do currently own a Siamese tigerfish with the potential to grow to 15"+ but i have a 7ft diameter (across a round pond) 3ft deep pond to house him in when he gets large.

[Shane]

I had not been paying close attention to this topic and now I wish I had been as some very good points have been made. Please keep it up. In regards to Deepblue's post about not eating aquarium fish, I have to admit that I had not ever thought about some of the issues raised. That said, I then thought about the various fish farms I have seen from Colombian Trout farms to Costa Rican Tilapia farms and realized that these fish are also raised in horrible environments (esp. the Tilapia). They are treated with all kinds of chemicals (worse than what you could ever buy in the US or Europe) and sold for humans to eat. I am not sure that it would be harmful to eat one or a few aquarium raised fishes. That said, I certainly would not make it a staple of my diet.
I also did not pick up that anyone was being preachy. I thought some good and fair advice was being offered in spite of the fact that many people (myself included) just do not believe that the really big pims are good candidates for the home aquarium.
The fact is that 90 percent of aquarists do no research before buying a certain fish and that, based on my experiance, 95 percent of retailers know very little about their product. It would certainly be best never to buy these fish, but if a person makes a poor decision and buys one they do have a choice. Take it right back! Tell the retailer what they sold you and trade it for a more suitable fish. You will not have solved the fish's problem, but you will have solved your problem.
-Shane

[flyinmike]

the various fish farms I have seen from Colombian Trout farms to Costa Rican Tilapia farms and realized that these fish are also raised in horrible environments (esp. the Tilapia). They are treated with all kinds of chemicals (worse than what you could ever buy in the US or Europe) and sold for humans to eat. I am not sure that it would be harmful to eat one or a few aquarium raised fishes.
-Shane

Even the catfish farms here in the US are grossly overstocked and under-filtered. For that matter, catch a fish from nearly any river in the US and you could be eating any of a hundred different chemicals. Also, ever seen a cattle feedlot? That hamburger at lunch didn't come from a green pasture. It was crammed body to body crapping and pissing all over each other and their food and water. Same thing with pork and chicken. I think the occasional fish from a well kept tank would be okay to eat.

[porkchop]

what's wrong with lima shovelnoses anyway?

i have a pair in a 100 gal planted tank and they look beautiful!

tsn's in my opinion are only suitable for public aquaiums

a similar problem exists in the reptile hobby where (hobbyists?) feel the need to keep african rock,indian and reticulated pythons as pets.personally i feel they are only chasing their own egoes and should leave these beautiful creatures either in the zoo or in the wild.

[coelacanth]

what's wrong with lima shovelnoses anyway?

Nothing! At a typical length of maybe 15" when adult, they are an ideal way for people to sample some of the sheer grace of the larger Pims without any of the problems. I am quite happy with Sorubim in 100 Galls and upwards, they aren't out-and-out cruisers like RTCs, TSNs etc.
In my view their headstanding hunting makes them far more interesting anyway, and they can even be housed with other fish of a reasonable size!
Few fish are better looking than a healthy Sorubim.

[porkchop]

so do you think i would be able to accomadate a tankmate with my limas?

if so what would be a good choice?

the tank is 48x24x24 and is filtered with a 36x15x18 sump

i originally bought them when young with plans of growing them up in the 100 gal and having them as tankmates in the 300gal with my freshwater stingrays,only to learn that the setups would be very different.

ie.. the rays need open swimming space and plants would be uprooted in the search for food and the limas like to hide behind bogwood plants ect and wait for food.

will the 100 gal accomadate them both as adults? i've had these fish since they were around 3" and have watched them progress from brineshrimp bloodworm flake ect to eating 3" long whitebait! and have got quite attached to them.

each fish is about 8" long

cheers,lee