Red Tail Catfish Help ASAP Please!

[Fisharefriends]

I'm new to this website and I'm not sure if I'm asking in the right place so, please, bear with me guys. I'm a bit desperate.
Anyway, we have a 55g that we set up in mid april and let cycle for a month and a half. We then proceeded to adding our Redtail and 2 shovelnose catfish. After about 3 weeks one of the shovel nose passed and we had no idea why or how. The Redtail and other shovelnose seemed perfectly fine. Time passed and all was well. About 5 months ago we added our 5in Royal pleco to the 55. Of course its's only temporary. We are aware that the catfish will outgrow the Royal and will have to be separated eventually. They seem to get along really well. They pretty much leave each other alone. Recently we got a big piece of driftwood and created more hiding places and that really changed the behaviour of our fish. The Royal stopped just hiding under one rock, he comes out a lot and the catfish come out and hang out on the wood too and their coloring got more intese. But just yesterday I noticed the redtail sitting on the ground under his favorite rock . Usually after he eats and gets really full, he digests by going under his rock and flipping upside down on it. and he'll hang out upside down under the rock like that for a while. It's really freaky but it's just what he does. But he has never just sat there. I've never seen him do it before and he is breathing abnormally. He breathes with his mouth wide open and his gills open up wide and kind of twitch after a few breaths. he'll swim to different spot and then stop and just sit there breathing weird.
I then proceeded to test the water for ammonia and it seemed to be at zero. I started to add water and then realized I hadn't checked the nitrites or ph. when I did, the nitrites were at about .20 almost .25 and the ph levels were at 6.6. I'm not sure if me adding a little bit of new water before testing made the results inaccurate. The temp is at 80 degrees. My poor little guy is not doing well at all right now. The Shovelnose seems great however, so that confuses me a little bit. Please if anyone could help me figure this out asap it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[catfishchaos]

Never do a water test after a a water change unless your looking to get rid of something

If I had to guess it sounds like low oxygen levels but its strange its only affecting one fish thus far... Make sure there is plenty of circulation focusing on a agitating the top layer of water and maybe try adding an airstone/pump to see if the condition improves. Tanks that warm tend to have harder times keeping high oxygen levels IME, did you recently change the temperature? how often are you doing water changes and what % of the tanks volume?

[pleconut]

Hi i dont want to come over as rude here. As i do want to genuinely help. But red tail catfish shovelnose and royal plecos do grow extremely big, individually I'd say each on their own would substantially outgrow a 55gal for the long term. How big are each of your fish right now. I do acknowledge your intention to upgrade.

[Fisharefriends]

Never do a water test after a a water change unless your looking to get rid of something

If I had to guess it sounds like low oxygen levels but its strange its only affecting one fish thus far... Make sure there is plenty of circulation focusing on a agitating the top layer of water and maybe try adding an airstone/pump to see if the condition improves. Tanks that warm tend to have harder times keeping high oxygen levels IME, did you recently change the temperature? how often are you doing water changes and what % of the tanks volume?

I knew it! I felt so stupid after I'd already poured in a quarter of the bucket. but I didnt pour the rest and tested anyway.
I will be adding another stone then.
No, the temp has not changed since we set the tank up. we do usually do 25% water changes every week but about half at the end of each month.

[Fisharefriends]

Hi i dont want to come over as rude here. As i do want to genuinely help. But red tail catfish shovelnose and royal plecos do grow extremely big, individually I'd say each on their own would substantially outgrow a 55gal for the long term. How big are each of your fish right now. I do acknowledge your intention to upgrade.

It's fine, not rude. Don't worry. But yes, we are aware that all 3 of these breeds grow to great sizes. We have a 180g for the catfish in the future The cats are about 4 and a half inches and the royal about 4 or 5 as well.

[pleconut]

So certainly not too big for the tank now, as mentioned get as much oxygen into the system by creating as much surface disturbance as possible. Are any of the fish displaying any other symptoms at all?

[Fisharefriends]

So certainly not too big for the tank now, as mentioned get as much oxygen into the system by creating as much surface disturbance as possible. Are any of the fish displaying any other symptoms at all?

No, both the shovelnose and royal seem just fine. The redtail just went belly up and then I moved him and he swam weakly away. We put him in a breeding net in the tank right in front of the filter where it's creating the most agitation.

[pleconut]

That may help. I am keeping my fingers crossed the red tail catfish recovers.

[Fisharefriends]

That may help. I am keeping my fingers crossed the red tail catfish recovers.

I hope so & me too
Thanks so much for your help

[Viktor Jarikov]

Welcome to the Planet!

Something's wrong most likely with your water or the husbandry. What test kit are you using? Hopefully a liquid, testtube kind.

With such a small bioload (three small fish in a 55 gal) there should be no ammonia or nitrite, unless your filter is way too small, or you don't treat the incoming water right, or there is a large accumulation of uneaten food, etc.

The shovelnose, is it lima or tiger?

The SA RTC should be over a foot by now.

Something's not adding up. Please post photos of the fish and the tank.

Consider this list of things when pondering / asking a health question: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... ng.210102/ - this is from a different forum but reading through other stikies of this forum should be quite helpful - http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... issues.35/

[pleconut]

Thanks Viktor for stepping in, as i have no personal experience with RTCs or shovelnose. just my knowledge of the eventual size.

[Fisharefriends]

Welcome to the Planet!

Something's wrong most likely with your water or the husbandry. What test kit are you using? Hopefully a liquid, testtube kind.

With such a small bioload (three small fish in a 55 gal) there should be no ammonia or nitrite, unless your filter is way too small, or you don't treat the incoming water right, or there is a large accumulation of uneaten food, etc.

The shovelnose, is it lima or tiger?

The SA RTC should be over a foot by now.

Something's not adding up. Please post photos of the fish and the tank.

Consider this list of things when pondering / asking a health question: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... ng.210102/ - this is from a different forum but reading through other stikies of this forum should be quite helpful - http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... issues.35/

Thanks for the welcome

And first of all I want to thank you so much for responding with your input but my poor little redtail did already pass away tonight at around 7. I was at work but my fiance was with him trying to care for him.

We definitely are using the liquid test tube testing kit. For filtration we have a 75g hanging filter and a 55g sponge filter. When we add new water we use a 5g bucket with prime, stability, API stress coat and stress zyme. They usually would eat all the food we fed them. In fact it was hard to feed them because the redtail would just gobble down all the food and since the shovelnose eats more predatory like, by the time he had a few bites the redtail would eat most of it. We had to seperate them, one on each end of the tank so the shovelnose could actually eat.

And the shovelnose is a Tiger shovelnose. Sorry, I should have included that, I just forgot about the lima shovelnose

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds like a typical scenario with an RTC and TSN feeding side by side and you have a good eye for observation. How experienced a fish-keeper are you?

What's the history of ammonia and nitrite measurements in this tank since inception?
Is the pH and temp stable?
What is the number for nitrates?
How often do you clean the filters?
How do you clean them?
Do you give them live feeders?

RTC resting on its back is very surprising. I'd even go as far as saying it is not right.
RTC should grow 1"-2" on average MONTHLY until it reaches 24".
This makes me doubt you have an RTC, but please provide photos so we may help you better, that is if you still would like help. IMHO RTC passing is immaterial if you aim to continue keeping fish. We all learn together and from each other.

[rob rensen]

I really don't understand why people still buy redtailcatfishes.....they grow to big for any tank, you need a small pool in the end....

stop buying them !!

[pleconut]

The thing is that there are still some LFS, that will sell these to unsuspecting fishkeepers, to make money, often with excuses such as they only grow as big as the tank allows, this is dangerous as the fish won't grow from an outward appearance, but the internal organs will, in the end killing it. I fell prowl to this, in my early days in the hobby, first when i almost purchased an MBU puffer, even though the LFS knew full well i only had a 4ft tank, i asked for them to hold it, went and done my research, second thoughts, i bailed out. Then a Giraffe cat i was daft enough to buy, for the same tank, obviously, i soon found out and returned it. Lesson learned: If you don't know the fish, research. Especially when it comes to catfish.

[Jools]

In my view, the human has a responsibility to understand the basics of any species they are buying. In this case that would be that the fish grows very quickly to an incredible size and then will live for thirty years or more.

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

While I agree with the above, I think I'd like to make five points:

1. I, for one, am unsure the OP has had a SA RTC. So this may or may not be moot altogether.

2. Michael Bryce aka @Arapaimag has had plenty of RTCs in his 52,000 gal tank. Only 2 were more or less 4' size. The rest have stayed at 3'-3.5'. The picture above is that of a wild-caught record fish of ~5.5' and 190 lbs, perhaps a very old fish too. There is a huge difference in taking care of a 5.5' fish and 3'-3.5' fish. I too am surprised at Michael's statistics showing short lifespans for his RTCs. His care is excellent, so I think the vast majority died of "natural" causes. Perhaps we get a lot of runts, poor quality/genes RTCs in our trade. This is well observed with the TSN for sure.
See post #150 here http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... 43/page-15 but the whole stickie thread is helpful:

"I've had a few over the years. The 6 that died where
1. 91cm
2. 96cm
3. 101cm
4. 103cm
5. 109cm
6. 132cm

They ranged from 7 to 9 years in time that I owned them.

The Three I have now are about

90cm 10 years
100cm 10 years
117cm 8 years

The two smaller ones were only 3.8cm long when I got them while the larger 8 year owned one was 66cm when I got him."

3. The 1.5'-wide 180 gal would normally be outgrown by an average RTC in under 1 year easily, usually in ~8 months. The situation with a TSN is similar.

4. The OP is not asking for our opinions on his housing plans.

5. This has been discussed to death in a plethora of threads and forums but I realize we need to still talk about it where appropriate.

[Jools]

You will see 4.5'+ red tails being brought in for sale at fish markets in SA pretty much every day, that's their wild state. Those I've seen in public aquaria are larger than 4'. As to longevity, it's from scientific studies by Michael Goulding and in his books etc.

I think we should keep talking about this until small RTCs are not commonly purchased to be dead within a year. I believe this to be true of all aquarium fishes, just is seems somehow things like RTCs are more tragic.

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

There is no argument, Jools. I agree with what you said. But it's only a part of it. I was rather trying to provide a different perspective for a hopefully better-balanced picture. From what I gather in my very limited knowledge:

1. RTC's average 4'-5' in the wild but only 3'-4' in captivity. 1' difference is about 50 lbs in weight for this fish.

2. They live from a couple to many decades in the wild but appear to average at 10 years or under in captivity (talking of deaths of natural-appearing causes).

Several years back, Taksan reported on his two RTCs which he had had for 27 years in 15,000 gal and they were, IIRC, 3.5'-4'.

IMHO, the captive monster fish plight is tragic but overall not more so than their smaller kin. The vast majority of them all, like 99%+, die from our water mismanagement, not because of the tanks being too small. And then look at the state of fish offered as feeders for sale. I know a lot can be said pro and con to these sentences. But again, we and others have discussed this to great lengths and it is way off-topic here as the thread currently stands.

[Bas Pels]

Victor, in my eyes you have put down precisely why keeping RTC (and other fish, just as big) should be banned.

Fish which can live for decades, dieing after 10 jear in captivity is a shame. Why would that be? I think because in those 10 years, they have had too much to cope with. Our grand parents used to work extremely hard, and die around 65 years of age. FRom natural causes. But now we life for 80 years, and appartently our grandparents did not die from natural causes, but from working too hard.

Things which happen in one's youth can be survived, but can also still count in one's life expectancy.

With regard to water mismanagement - don't you think that water management in a small tank is much harder than in a big one? That is, fish dieing from watermismanagement actually die from the tank being too smal?

[Jools]

I think what Viktor is saying is that although most RTCs die from poor care, that is also true of most aquarium fishes generally. I think, statistically that is true, but the nub of the issue here is that the majority of the fixed community here are experienced fishkeepers for whom that statistic is not true. But, within that cohort, the statistic for RTC care is still true or at least would be if attempted.

Keeping an RTC within your first few years of fishkeeping is like riding a 1000cc bike in your first year of driving. Statistically, it will not usually go well however, there are plenty (young men) who think they will be the ones to beat the math - it is just a shame that RTCs don't cost the same as big bikes.

Jools

[Narelle]

If an animal's captive lifespan does not exceed its lifespan in the wild (where it faces predation, more abundant disease, competition, and a number of other factors), then the husbandry is simply inadequate.

I work in the aquarium industry*, and that is the standard. There are anomalies, not every animal will make it that long, but that should be the norm. A shorter lifespan where an animal has a much easier life should never be normal.

I really think that the commonplace idea of "grow out tanks" is likely a big factor in the shortened lifespans here. How do you tell when an animal has outgrown their tank without waiting for the visible signs? By then you've already done your damage. You could move them up when their ammonia output exceeds their keeper's ability to water change, but I would still argue that would be too late. I just don't believe its even possible to account for all of the different factors that affect a fish's growth (i.e. individual variation, diet, tank size, water change regime, etc.) and have some cookie cutter answer of when they'll outgrow their tanks. You can't always see the damage that does, but I really think its largely to blame for shortening the lifespans of these animals, especially if every other aspect of their care is exceptional.

I would not be against banning monster fish entirely, but I don't think its very likely. Instead, I'd like to see permits required to keep them, so that we might at least limit their sale and try to ensure that they don't go home with anyone clueless and incapable of offering them the care (and custom built tanks/ponds) that they require.

The public aquarium industry has standards and regulations to meet that hobbyists aren't subjected to. My facility is regulated by federal standards, the AZA, and AMMPA. I think the hobby could use a little regulation too.

(*For anyone that recalls my discussion of the topic previously, I do now work as an aquarist at my facility, primarily with the elasmobranchs.)