How do you tell the difference between L133, L248 and LDA33

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 24 Dec 2003, 22:06

How do you physically and visually tell them apart?

It seems to me that LDA 33 and L248 are so similar. L133 appears to have more defined spines on the body from the pictures.

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 24 Dec 2003, 22:11

Oops, I meant LDA33 and L133 are so similar and L248 is the one that appears spiney.

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 25 Dec 2003, 17:34

Hi Kenneth,

First question, what pictures did you use to compare these L-numbers?

I'm asking because the good old aqualog had some problems to illustrate those numbers. The two photographs of L133 show definitively L107, and the rest are just drawings.

All three species have in common, that they are from the Rio Tapajos (or its affluent Rio Cupari (for L133)). All three are believed to belong to the genus Baryancistrus.

What tells them apart? LDA33 is a juvenile and was called by Stawikowski (in DATZ 2/1998:96) as the same species as L142. This might be true.

L142 was called by Claus Schaefer ("Das groÃ?e Buch der Welse" p.276) as beeing the same as L133. I am not sure if that is true too.

If you look at the original photographs of L133 and L142 you can see two bigger specimens, which are about the same size. But while L142 owns the genus-typical fin-membrane at the last dorsal spine down to the back of the fish, is this not the case in the fish on the L133-picture.

The darker ground-coloration in L142 is not a good character, because these fish can change that according to their mood, color of the ground, or fright. Do adults of L133 loose the membrane or is this because it was destroyed during catch and transport? What sence does it make that in one river occur two species of one genus?

I think you can see, that it is a bit problematic in this case to give good reasons, to tell them really apart. Just based on pictures it seems to be not possible. I only have seen specimens of one species (LDA33 is one of the few LDA-numbers which I did not create) of Baryancistrus from the Rio Tapajos alive. They had a membrane in the dorsal fin, so we called them L142 in the new Loricariidae all L-Numbers book.

Erwin

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 25 Dec 2003, 17:57

I just realized that you was also asking for L248 (from the Rio Cumina, an affluent to the Rio Trombetas), which also has received as an earlier given L-Number L115 for a Rio Trombetas individual. The problem to tell them apart from the other three L-/LDA-Numbers from the opposite side of the amazon is indeed a problem. We cannot be sure, that they are different species. L-Numbers are not on species level. They are more based on distribution. And the mouth of Rio Trombetas is in about the same distance to the mouth of Rio Tapajos as it is the mouth of Rio Cupari to Sao Luis do Tapajos (the findplace of LDA33). For a fish of that size it should be possible that they belong all to just one species. But in the even larger Panaque from these areas (L27) you can find differences in coloration so you can tell from which river they are. In Baryancistrus this seems to be not the case.

Erwin

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 25 Dec 2003, 22:38

Thanks for the information Erwin, I was basing my comparison on pictures on the Cat-elog of Planet catfish. When I tried to compare these pictures back to the older version of Aqualog that I have it made it more confusing(Like you said old aqualog were drawings). So Erwin, what current resource should I use to ID them. I purchased one of those recently and was trying to make a positive ID and the confusion of pictures made it difficult. I do believe what I purchased was either a L133 or LDA33. I have no digital camera or I would try to post the picture.

Basing on the description from Cat-elog LDA33 is a Baryancistrus and L133 is a Scobinancistrus, but you're saying that these maybe from the same genus Baryancistrus but just different location thus the different L numbers. Am I understanding you correctly?

Here is another question. Is there a accurate resource that gives good descriptions in the differences in the genus, ie. dimorphism(sp?), teeth/mouth structure, fins?

lizardking · Post by **lizardking** » 26 Dec 2003, 02:09

Hi Kenneth, I m currently having three 7-8" LDA33 and two 6-7" L133. I think it will be easier to diffentiate them by their body shape. From my obervation, the LDA 33 do have a bigger head compare to the L133. The general shape of the LDA 33 is very similar to that of the L47 and L177 and hence I presume that the LDA33 is of the Baryancistrus group. On the other hand, the general shape of the L133 is very similar to that of the L14 and L253 and therefore I precume that they are from the Scobiancistrus group.

Hope the info helps.

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 26 Dec 2003, 17:36

Hi Kenneth,

Thank you for the information about the cat-eLog. I also should have used this source, then it would have become much earlier clear to me, what L133 is. I think the cat-eLog is right with its opinion about L133. After I saw the pictures it was clear to me, L133 can be no Baryancistrus - species. Before I had always doubts, because the animals, which come in the trade as LDA33 from the Rio Tapajos, are colored usually much more brightly, than L142. Here two photos of such fish:

On the left side, a juvenile, on the right a semiadult specimen with about 10 cm SL.

Because of this light coloration and the remark in "Das GroÃ?e Buch der Welse" about that L133 is the same as L142, I always believed in the possibility, that both numbers could show actually the same species. My own doubts have ben wiped away now by the pictures in the cat-eLog. L133 is actually a species, which is much closer related to Scobinancistrus than to any other described genus.

Erwin

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 26 Dec 2003, 21:08

Hi Erwin,

thanks for the photos. The one I purchased looks more like the juvenile with large white dots. It currently is around 5 to 6cm but with a blacker background, I'm guessing this has a lot to do with the mood of the L133. Do you know if anyone has tried breeding these and what source would you recommend for good explanation of the differences in the genus.

batho · Post by **batho** » 27 Dec 2003, 20:06

Lizardking,

I have never heard of LDA33's growing to 7-8". Are you sure you have them at this size?

All the literature and info. on the net says max size 4.5".

Steve

lizardking · Post by **lizardking** » 28 Dec 2003, 02:15

HI batho, these 7-8" LDA33 have been with me for close to 5 years! And yes, I m very sure that they are LDA33. When I get my digicam, I will post some pics on the net. They are now in my pleco community tank which is preety crowded.

Btw, how do you differentiate a male baryancistrus sp. from a female?

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 28 Dec 2003, 12:29

Hi!

Males' head seems to be flatter and wider than on females
You can also chekc waht was written for Baryancistrus sp. L18 here. the sexing method can apply to the other member of the genus.

Cheers
Yannundefined