L397 sexing and breeding - now I'm not so sure

[Mol_PMB]

I'd like to try and definitively sex my four

Panaqolus sp(L397)

, and would like some advice if possible. I've attached some photos of the four fish and some background follows...

I've had this group of four

Panaqolus sp(L397)

for about 9 months now. I bought them as juveniles from Pier Aquatics when they were about 2" long, and Rachael tried to pick me out 2 males and 2 females.

For most of the time I've had them, they've lived in a 2'x2' footprint tank with plenty of branches, different types of wood, homemade wooden caves, coconuts and ceramic and plastic cave ornaments. Most of the time all I see of them is a tail or two protruding from a cave. There are no other fish in there, but a good population of Malaysian trumpet snails as CUC. They get a 30% water change and substrate clean weekly.

A few weeks after I first put them in this tank together, one fry appeared. I had previously had a breeding pair of

Ancistrus sp`rio_paraguay`

in this tank, but I thought I had got all the babies out and this one seemed too small to have been one of theirs. But as it grew up, it clearly became an Ancistrus and not a Panaqolus.

So, the four L397s have been in the tank for 8 months or so, and I've not seen much of them, but they have approximately doubled in size. However, I haven't seen any definitive signs of breeding. I'd like to breed them, and while there are no doubt many parameters I could play with, the most important thing is to have a mix of boys and girls.

This weekend I decided to give the tank a really good clean, so I took out all the decor and the fish. This is the first time I've done such a thorough clean since they went in. While I had the fish out, I put them one-by-one in a clear plastic box to try and get some photos of them. The photos are not the best quality but hopefully good enough.

So - over to the experts. How many boys and how many girls have I actually got?

Many thanks,
Paul

Fish 1:

Adult L397, ventral view, fish 1

Adult L397, dorsal view, fish 1

Fish 2:

Adult L397, ventral view, fish 2

Adult L397, dorsal view, fish 2

Adult L397, dorsal view, fish 2

Fish 3 and 4 to follow on the next post.

[Mol_PMB]

Fish 3:

L397, ventral view, Fish 3

L397, dorsal view, Fish 3

L397, dorsal view, Fish 3

Fish 4:

L397, dorsal view, Fish 4

L397, ventral view, Fish 4

[pleconut]

As I have a group of L397s i'll be posting some pics myself this week for sexing if i need help. On another forum ive bookmarked a guide i found to sexing these will look it up and put the in the next post. Back in a minute!

[bekateen]

Based on odontodes and body girth, I'd GUESS #1 male, #2 male(?), #3 and #4 female. But that's not based on any personal experience with L397, just based on my experience with P. maccus.

Good luck, Eric

[pleconut]

Hi it's http://www..ace forums. com.aul/index.phpshowtopic=58251 hoping im not breaking rules sharing this it's good you've got several dorsal views of second fish it gives a better idea of actual profile the profile of the first because of the mouth position it could appear female because of the ondotode probably male i have got as many pictures as i can of mine and its a matter of comparing deduction and ruling out I also have observed behaviour patterns to go on very noticable in a larger group I already kind of have an idea of males and females but only as mine are just reaching maturity so i have a group that each have claimed and now their own cave and are defending it if necessary- the boys and the other group that are happy either moving around caves or not being in one at all -the girls as yours are adults preparing them to spawn will obviously make it clear but having said all this my guess is 1. male 2. female 3. male 4. female my pics will be up in the next few days.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks to you both

Yes, #1 is bristly all over so is surely male, even though he's a little tubby round the hips. He also has a clearly striped belly, whereas the other three have a 'disruptive pattern' to use a military term. I don't know if that has any significance.

I'll have a look at those links and look through my other photos again and see if I can spot any further relevant details but I'm afraid I did it all in a bit of a rush and should have checked the photo quality on-screen before putting the fish back in the tank.

Would be nice if I could get them breeding. Maybe I should just leave them alone for a bit.

[Koi-fantast]

1 male, the others females or young males.

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks. All four fish are the same size, and I believe the same age too since I got them as F1 juveniles.

Here are some extra dorsal views of Fish 1, 3 and 4 (I already posted two pics of Fish 2 and there aren't any more good ones).

Fish 1:

L397, dorsal view, Fish 1

Fish 3:

L397, dorsal view, Fish 3

Fish 4:

L397, dorsal view, Fish 4

Any tips on encouraging them to breed? I have very soft water, plenty of current in the tank with several powerheads, and the temperature is 25C. I have lots of caves but I wonder if they're big enough.

Cheers
Paul

[bekateen]

Hi Paul,

I have lots of caves but I wonder if they're big enough.

As long as the fish can fit their body in the cave, "too small" a diameter should not be a problem, based on my experience with P. maccus and ABNs; in fact, I think my males prefer narrower caves because they provide more security and are easier to trap females in. I suspect that cave length is more important. My plecos prefer longer, deeper caves where both the male and female can fit inside at the same time, one in front of the other. My maccus (about 4.5-6 cm SL) spawn in bamboo caves about 15cm long/deep.

Any tips on encouraging them to breed?

You can try Shane's technique and ignore them for a while. I found that to help with my maccus - I surrounded their tank on almost all sides with black paper so they couldn't see me walking past their tank every day, and I almost entirely ignored them for a week or two (or 3). I just let them eat the wood in their tank and I didn't vacuum the gravel in that time. No water changes either. And finally bingo!

(Disclaimer: just because that worked before, it is no promise of or guarantee of future success. LOL)

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

The breeder I got mine from his adults i would say are more like 6 inches at least the females are the males are always in caves he has wooden caves chewed to bits so they are slighly bigger than ones i have but we're originally same size he has some slate and D caves but his success has been with the wood and ceramic also have D caves along with wooden but ive heard bamboo work also i bought mine from a retailer called Orwell aquatics they are online in uk the breeder gave me the details the wood caves are 6 inches long in total and 11/2 inch diameter hole but the D caves are slightly bigger a selection of caves is a good starting point so they can choose themselves a slight word of caution though if those coconut shells you have are used as caves I wouldn't recommend as if the fish do breed in these the females may come to some harm while breeding the breeder also said the females can be given a hard time by males while breeding because of the extra space in coconut caves I had some early losses I still stand by the fact as i was using coconut caves that breeding related activity and aggression was maybe a cause of the losses as the night before all fish were well the next day the ones i lost discovered with shredded fins despite mine being not fully mature also the breeder reduces the temperature to stop his from breeding as they were so prolific then increases it to start them breeding again maybe reduction then increase to trigger them to start for the first time but he's advised me to wait and when they are ready they will rainwater or ro water can help but ive been told his breed in hard tapwater. I terms of further pics I still think 1 and 3 are males 2 and 4 females. Just to add i have a couple born in april at 2 in long you may get a better idea of their age the older ones a different bloodline in late december last year are at 4-5 inches. All the best.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks! Mine are about 4" long at the moment, so probably about a year old.
I'll maybe take the coconut caves out then, if they're a risk. At least they enjoyed munching on them, and using them as a hideout.

I've got 5 home-made wooden caves of various sizes; the smaller ones were very popular when the fish were smaller but now they only just about fit in and they're certainly not long enough for two fish. The bigger wooden cave is perhaps too large in diameter. I have a ceramic tube which is a better size and shape, and since my re-decoration at the weekend this has become a popular spot. There are also lots of branches and bogwood bits in the decor, many of which have niches underneath.

I'll get a couple of those D-caves and make another bigger wooden one, try some temperature and current variations, and see what happens.

Cheers,
Paul

[pleconut]

They do like munching on the shells and i think i've seen somewhere else on the forum here there are wild populations of panaques that do also i was going to break up the old ones for them and put in the shells, drilling different size holes with a large drill bit in chunky pieces of bogwood are always worth a try if they are at an angle where eggs will stay in.

[Narwhal72]

When I bred my L226 and L271, leaving them alone was the best way to get success.

I would go weeks, if not months without doing a water change and then do a big one every day for a couple of days. Partly because it took several days of water changes to vacuum all the partially digested wood muck out of their tanks that had accumulated! After that I would fine a male guarding eggs soon after.

Andy

[pleconut]

Its obvious but i would guess that in the wild the rainy season would wash away the accumulation in the waterways where they live in pretty much the same manner so it makes sense.

[bekateen]

When my P. maccus eventually bred, I didn't even need to use the water changes - by simply ignoring them and giving them privacy (the tank almost entirely wrapped in black paper), they eventually spawned... And once they started, they wouldn't stop: Re: Sexing Panaqolus maccus? Spawning at last!. Some of the recorded spawns occurred after major water changes; but most did not require the water change. I was providing occasional special foods (sweet potato, algae wafers), but in the end that didn't really seem to make a difference. They just needed to be left alone and neglected (no water changes and eating almost nothing more than the wood in their tanks; no routine feedings) for a few weeks.

Cheers, Eric

[Mol_PMB]

Ah well, perhaps I've just been looking after them too much! They are all a bit tubby... ;)

[CharlieM9]

Ah well, perhaps I've just been looking after them too much! They are all a bit tubby... ;)

We have a saying around here in regards to breeding plecos....it's a game of hurry up and wait! Sometimes even if we do things perfect as keepers, the fish will just do it when they are ready/willing....

[bekateen]

Ah well, perhaps I've just been looking after them too much! They are all a bit tubby... ;)

As long as it's due to eating lots of wood and veggies, "tubby" is good! (it may indicate gravid females)

My female maccus were REALLY ball-shaped by the time they started breeding. IMO, "tubby" is worrisome if (A) they haven't been eating but they are still really round (could indicate infection or parasites), or (B) you're feeding them too much rich, meaty foods (bloat).

Cheers, Eric

[Mol_PMB]

I feed them about 3-4 times a week, with one of:
New era pleco pellets
Courgette
Red pepper
Repashy gel (approx 40% Solent green, 30% Morning wood, 20% meat pie, 10% Chlorella and Spirulina powders)
Other than those they have a selection of woods to munch on.

[rob rensen]

Indeed 1 a male

2,3 and 4 female

(Lucky bastard )

why red pepper ???

[bekateen]

Regarding your feeding choices, they sound safe to me - nothing too rich.

Regarding the possibility of 1 male and 3 females, I was told about my P. maccus that too many females can interfere with mating. But in your case, I don't know if three is "too many" for one male. The other things I was told were be patient (esp. since you got yours as juvies) and keep them alone in a species tank.

Cheers, Eric

[Linus_Cello]

why red pepper ???

Red pepper high in caretenoids, and maybe enhances the red/orange colors in the fish?

[pleconut]

Eric in your experience with the maccus in terms of ratio of males to females how much is too many males as i think my males may outnumber the females though when I catch and photograph them i too may find myself lucky.I also have some probably too young to be sexed.

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks
Red bell pepper is an absolute favourite with my veggie plecs; they eat it right down to the skin. My Ancistrus, Farlowella, Otocinclus, and Hypoptopoma can't get enough, and the Pseudolithoxus and Pseudacanthicus have a nibble too. Even the Farlowella fry (which are hard to feed) enjoy red peppers. I understand it's quite nutritious compared to foods like courgette.
However, I must confess the Panaqolus don't seem quite as keen on it compared to the courgette.

[pleconut]

I've had some difficulty with weaning mine off courgettes they do also eat sweet potatoes and seemed it was all i could get them to eat but i started with repashy morning wood recently and found they ate this first but have now moved in the last few days onto eating the wood in the tank and don't eat the courgettes so much now they also get new era pleco pellets and rift lake green alternately.

[bekateen]

Eric in your experience with the maccus in terms of ratio of males to females how much is too many males

Hi Teresa,

Honestly, I'm not fit to answer that, as I have experience with so few plecos. But another member (@stuby) brought this issue up when I was trying to find the right foods to get my P. maccus to spawn (Re: Will clown plecos eat shrimp? Is raw or cooked better?):

Sometimes if you have too many females they fight over breeding rights and they never seem to get it done.... if you have another tank try pulling the two other clowns out leaving the male and the best female.

At that time, I had one male and three females. Shortly thereafter, I bought two more males and one more female, bringing my group to 3 males and 4 females; these were all significantly smaller (about 1cm shorter) than my original four, but they were all clearly sexable none-the-less. Within a week or two of adding the three new fish, my first spawning occurred. And then about a month later, I had all three males spawning at once.

I can't say with certainty that they started spawning because I "fixed" a problem with the sex ratio by bringing it back closer to balance (3M:4F instead of 1M:3F). Actually, I'm more inclined to believe that what I experienced was something more like a phenomenon known among behavioral biologists as the "Coolidge Effect." The Coolidge Effect is the phenomenon where a male which is not interested in sex because he is tired of having sex with the same females suddenly becomes interested in sex when a new female is introduced (there are similar reciprocal observations for females when a new male is introduced, but this is not called the Coolidge Effect - it is specific to male behavior).

Now obviously this is not exactly what occurred with my fish, since my fish hadn't spawned at all yet, so clearly they couldn't have been "sated of (tired of too much) sex" with the same female. And the Coolidge Effect is best documented in some mammals like rats. But it has also been documented in some fishes, where males become reproductively active when new females are introduced to the male.

The phenomenon is named after American President Calvin Coolidge, and is supposedly so-named because of an exchange he had with his wife once while visiting a farm. I will reference a passage from the textbook, An Introduction to Behavioral Endocrinology, Fourth Edition, by Randy J. Nelson (2011)

According to the story, President Coolidge and his wife were visiting a farm in the Midwest and were given separate tours by the owners. Both President and Mrs. Coolidge noted during their tours that only one rooster was associated with the large flock of hens. Mrs. Coolidge asked the farmer how many times per day the rooster engaged in romance. “Several times a day,” the farmer replied. “Please relay that information to the president,” responded the first lady, apparently impressed by the rooster’s performance. Later, during his tour, President Coolidge was given this same information about the copulatory prowess of the rooster. The president pressed further, “Same hen each time?” “Oh no,” replied the farmer, “A different hen each time.” “Please relay that information to Mrs. Coolidge.”

And anecdotally, I would say that I have observed that in several species of fish which I've spawned over the years: I'll have a group of sexually inactive adults (which may or may not have spawned previously), but within days or weeks of introducing a new member to the community (usually females, but sometimes males), the group becomes reproductively active. It's for this same logic that I occasionally go out and buy one or two new corys to add to my breeding groups (and it's why I bought the three new P. maccus) in order to "spice up" their sex lives with some new blood, and also new genetic diversity.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Indeed 1 a male

2,3 and 4 female

(Lucky bastard )

Rob, By "lucky bastard," are you referring to the lone male in a tank with three females? Or is this a statement of envy expressed towards @Mol_PMB because he is so lucky to have a mixed sex group of this beautiful Panaqolus?

Eric

[Mol_PMB]

Eric, the same question was in my mind too! ;)

[pleconut]

Another question I have found the last few days that from my group -I already have an idea of the males- as they had established and defended their caves I added to the group what I thought were 3 (larger) females a few weeks ago i think i had mostly males before but the last 2/3 day the males one by one have left the caves and are for most of the time out and about with the females but i have purposely left lights off the last few days. Could these behavioural changes indicate breeding is not far off.

[bekateen]

... in your experience with the maccus in terms of ratio of males to females how much is too many males as i think my males may outnumber the females

Oops, I forgot to answer the second part of this question. While I don't know what the optimal ratio of females to males is, I have always heard that females should outnumber males in order to minimize fighting between males.

Another reason to take this approach is that in some species of plecos, the males can start caring for a new clutch of eggs before finishing with a previous clutch, so a male can breed with more than one female within a short period of time (1 or 2 weeks apart), which as far as I can tell is typically faster than a single female can develop a new clutch of eggs in her ovaries after just spawning.

In other words, if you're hoping your breeders will produce a lot of babies and you have more males because you're counting on a single female providing eggs to more than one male, she won't be able to develop new eggs as fast as a male could mate with two females, both ready within days of each other. The only way you're going to get one female giving eggs to two males is if she divides a single clutch of eggs between the two guys, laying half as many eggs as possible with each male (I think I had that happen one night in my tank - two males had fresh eggs within a day of each other, but both males had only a few eggs, far fewer than were typically getting deposited in caves by the males).

I'm not suggesting that you should go for spawning huge numbers of fish to produce lots of babies, but you will get more eggs from more females - that should be simple math, and you don't need extra males to do it.

Cheers, Eric