Species/breeding aquarium

[Jobro]

Do you know about the Hornbach stores in Nethelands? I googled and found some around Rotterdam. Check there, they usually have P. Maccus in Germany. I know they are no Fish store, but they have an aquatic department. I can find some maccus everytime I go there. around 8,99€ per fish if I recall correctly. Always in the same tank as the papiliochromis altispinosa. But this will probably be different in your store.

Don't know about your pygs illness, sorry poor fellow. hope he will recover.
Johannes

[MarlonnekeW]

Yes, I do know Hornbach. There is actually a big store in the town I live in ;).
I've bought/buy a lot of my stuff there, including my aquariums and their aquarium sand (which is very popular here in Holland). I think I've only seen Ancistrus there, but I will definitely go to have a look and ask if they can maybe order them.

Yesterday I put the cory with the wound on his head out of his misery. The wound was getting bigger every day and he was clearly feeling miserable. It was very hard to do, but letting him suffer would have been even more cruel. There should be seven cory's left now. I see five of them regularly and I've just discovered number six. They are active and not showing any signs of illness. I'm hoping that the other one is shy and hiding, because the group is smaller now, but I'm a bit worried that he could be dead as well. I try to search for them several times a day, but until now I haven't seen more than six at the same time. For now the only thing I can do is make sure they get high quality food and live in a good environment (temperature, water quality, clean substrate ect.) and keep my fingers crossed that whatever this is, will be over soon.

[MarlonnekeW]

Today I had to go to Hornbach, because I needed new frozen food, so of course I looked at their pleco's. They do sell Peckoltia Vittata, but even though I'm a complete 'newbie' when it comes to these's fish, they do look more like P. Maccus to me.


If tried to take some pictures (sorry for the poor quality):








@jac: they come from Ruinemans and Hornbach uses the name they gave them. Do you know what Ruinemans sells under this name?
This is the link to their website for 'Peckoltia vittata https://www.ruinemans.com/nl-NL/2073/cl ... ombia.html

[Jobro]

Picture definitely show one of the P. Maccus spp.
P. Vittata are way different. But P. Maccus are always sold as P. vittata or P. affinis or something like that. Never saw a correct naming in a shop on them.

How are prices over there?

[bekateen]

The bottom picture leaves me pause, but the top two photos resemble clowns, IMHO. I tend to think of vittata as having wider, more colorful pale stripes.

[MarlonnekeW]

Thanks! These little guys had small stripes and a brown to almost light green color. They probably have some kind of stress-coloration, but especially the patterns still looks very different from the Vittata.
I'm not sure how representative the picture on the suppliers website (bottom link) is, but that also looks like P. Maccus to me (again, I'm on the 'pleco's for dummies' level, so I'm not sure if I judge this picture right)

The price was around € 9,95 per fish. So that's ok, I guess. The prices for Hypancistrus are a lot higher around here and they differ quite a bit. For example the L201 is sold between € 15,- and € 35 per fish. The L129 and L340 are around € 25.

[bekateen]

I don't know about European prices, but in my part of the U.S., clown plecos are usually the cheapest plecos for sale in a store, with the only things cheaper being small sized common plecos like P. gibbiceps, and sometimes bristlenoses.

[MarlonnekeW]

It's the same here, except if you want to buy a bristlenose around here; in some cases you can even get them for free. Breeding them is considered a very bad idea, unless you can make a deal with a LFS, because it's very hard to find new homes for the juveniles.

That's the only thing I'm a bit worried about: will I be able to find new homes for the little ones ? With the L129/L340 this won't be a problem, but I'm not sure if the same goes for P. Maccus.

The way things are going with my Corydoras pygmaeus, 360+ views, but still no real interest, is not helping either. I can't wait to start on the breeding tank, but because of these little guys I have to be patient for a little while longer ;). The only other solution I have is to put them into my shrimp aquarium (54L/14 gallon with CR's and a small group of Boraras brigittae), but I'm not sure how many baby pygmy's I have and I don't want to overstock this aquarium (on the other hand, this would allow me to count them). A few of them will stay here and move to the aquarium with their parents, but since I had some sick cory's in this aquarium, I don't think it's a good idea to add new fish at the moment.

[Jobro]

That's the only thing I'm a bit worried about: will I be able to find new homes for the little ones ? With the L129/L340 this won't be a problem, but I'm not sure if the same goes for P. Maccus.

I think chances of reselling will probably be better on hypancistrus spp.
P. Maccus are very easy to keep. Some fresh water every now and then and some soft wood in the tank and those fellows will be happy. If you're going for vacation, Maccus will let you go without having to worry. They will just feed on the wood or maybe some plants and they will be fine, even if you leave them for 14 days or some more.
On the other hand maccus are not the most beautiful plecos, personally I don't think they can keep up with some of the more beautiful hypancistrus. I do keep 5 Maccus and It's not like I wouldn't keep them again. But plecos are going to stay around with you for quite some years and if you have to make a decision between Maccus or some more appealing Hypancistrus or Peckoltia I wouldn't pick the Maccus. If you can afford to go for other plecos later on (like getting another tank) Maccus might be a good start for getting into plecos. But breeding and having a hard time selling the youngsters of P. Maccus over maybe 5-10 years (yeah plecos live that long) is only going to work if you really love those Maccus. If you feel like they are not what you were looking for, maybe go for something else.

Well you can always try selling the Maccus after some years, when you're content and ready to take the next step and keep/breed something more challenging.

The way things are going with my Corydoras pygmaeus, 360+ views, but still no real interest, is not helping either. I can't wait to start on the breeding tank, but because of these little guys I have to be patient for a little while longer ;).

Can't believe nobody wants C. Pygmaeus. With more and more people having small tanks, small fish should be a perfect fit... Maybe Corydoras are not colorful enough for the vanilla aquarist? But pretty much everyone thinks they are cute once they see them in real. How are you prizing them?

[MarlonnekeW]

That's exactly what I'm considering right now. I really like the P. Maccus (maybe they are not the prettiest, but I think they are very cute little fish), they are not to big and it's a comforting thought that if you go away for a few days, they will be fine without extra care. I guess I'll have to figure out were my focus is going to be, on owning a group of fish that I like and occasionally enjoying a few babies that will grow up with their parents, or on really breeding a species.

As of the pygmeaus, at the moment I'm selling them at € 1,75, but maybe I have to lower my price a bit. The problem is that if you sell them at a very cheap price, you get a lot of response from people that only want a cheap fish and don't care if the fish will be suitable for their aquarium (you don't want to know how weird some of the responses are).
I think one of the reasons why selling them is more difficult, may be that the Pygmeaus is relatively cheap in stores around here. You can buy them for € 2-3, while other cory's are a lot more expensive. Therefore it's less profitable to go to a private breeder and you can just as well buy them in a regular store.

[Jobro]

As of the pygmeaus, at the moment I'm selling them at € 1,75, but maybe I have to lower my price a bit. The problem is that if you sell them at a very cheap price, you get a lot of response from people that only want a cheap fish and don't care if the fish will be suitable for their aquarium (you don't want to know how weird some of the responses are).
I think one of the reasons why selling them is more difficult, may be that the Pygmeaus is relatively cheap in stores around here. You can buy them for € 2-3, while other cory's are a lot more expensive. Therefore it's less profitable to go to a private breeder and you can just as well buy them in a regular store.

Most private sellers in germany are pricing them at 2€. So your prizes are just fine. I wouldn't go lower. Maybe add a discount like 10 corys for 15€. It's better for the fish to be in bigger schools like 10 or more anyway.
Make sure to use good pictures. Good pictures are key to selling. I sold Endler guppy for 1,50€ while other sell them for 0,30€ and I still sold all of mine within 2 weeks. Investing 20 minutes into 2-3 good pictures is sometimes worth a lot.

[MarlonnekeW]

Things are finally moving.
Yesterday, I sold my first baby pygmaeus and since I was already stressing them out by catching them and the bubbles from the substrate were getting worse, I decided to move a few of them to the aquarium with their parents and the rest to my shrimp aquarium, so at least they are safe.
I was really surprised how many there were. The parents were in this aquarium for about 5 weeks, before I decided to move them to my other aquarium to prevent them from breeding. This led to over 60 (!) baby pygmaeus, without any intervention. In hindsight, I'm glad that I moved them when I did, because if I hadn't I would probably have a huge overstocking problem now.

So, I can finally start with my new pleco-tank .
I will keep the sand as substrate (someone is sending me some snails that live in the substrate and they prevent it from rotting), but I'm still deciding if I will remove the worst bit and clean the rest or if I will replace it all with new sand. I have a piece of wood, that I'm not using right now and I think this is really suitable for my breedingtank. It has a bit the shape of a tree with some root-like 'branches' on the bottom, where I can place some caves under and a rather flat top, where I can also put one or two caves, so I have multiple levels. There are also some branches in-between, but I don't think I can put a cave there without the risk of it falling down.

I still have to little questions.
How many caves to I need and if I go with the P. Maccus, can I put some Anubias on the wood, or will that bother them when they are feeding?

Cheers Marlonneke

[Jobro]

I dont think anubias will bother them at all. Caves depend on the number of plecos. Some of mine prefer being in a cave, others rather like to stay underneath some wood or a coconut hsuk. I'd go with number of plecos x 1.5 => 4 plecos = 6 caves or 6 plecos = 9 caves. Though i'd actually only need 4 caves for 5 maccus on my tank, the others are not used at all.

[bekateen]

I agree. Anubias is fine, but not needed with Panaqolus. Start with more caves than you have fish, let them decide which they like. You can always remove a few caves later, but always leave more caves on the tank than you have plecos.... And LOTS of wood, so fish can't territorially block other fish from access for food.

[MarlonnekeW]

Thanks!
I was considering to buy something like this to create multiple layers and maybe put one or two caves with two openings on top of it as hiding places:
http://www.legholen.com/leisteen-leghol ... 60305.html (sorry for the dutch website).

Is this useful or are the caves too close together?

[bekateen]

I was considering to buy something like this to create multiple layers and maybe put one or two caves with two openings on top of it as hiding places:
http://www.legholen.com/leisteen-leghol ... 60305.html (sorry for the dutch website).

Is this useful or are the caves too close together?

Good question. Hopefully someone else with more experience will respond because I don't know for sure.

I know that

• some plecos prefer caves of different shapes (round, triangular, square (like the photo in your link).
• my clowns are doing well in round bamboo caves.
• my mustard spot plecos are staying out of round caves and hanging underneath flat sheets of slate rock.

So the answer to your question is probably that the type of cave will depend on the type of pleco you get. If you get regular clowns (Panaqolus maccus), I don't know how well they respond to square caves in groups like that (I've seen those called pleco "hotels" before). I do know that my bamboo caves are, in some cases, side-by-side, so the physical separation between caves is about the same as what you'd get in a hotel like the one on the website you're looking at. In that regard, the closeness of the caves may not be a problem for P. maccus clowns.

Sorry, that's not very conclusive, but hopefully helpful.

Good luck, Eric

[MarlonnekeW]

To be clear, I don't want to buy this one and leave it at that. I just want to use it as another 'device' to create different levels (which happens to have a few caves in different sizes in it). It's not about the caves, but more about having an elevated point to put a cave on).
I already have some caves with one opening in different sizes that I want to put under the pieces of wood. I also want to buy 2/3 caves with two openings as hiding places and I will probably order a few bamboo caves as well (they are really inexpensive, so why not order them as well and see which cave they like).

[MarlonnekeW]

Today I made a start with redecorating. About half of the substrate had bubbles coming out of it, so I removed this sand and added some clean sand (not as much as I removed so the substrate is not as thick as it used to be).
I added some wood and the caves I already had. The plan is to buy two caves with two openings to put on the higher levels and some bamboo caves. I'm still considering the pleco-hotel, because at the moment I don't see another option to create different levels. My plants were almost completely covered with pond snail eggs, so I think it's better to throw them away and buy a few new ones. I don't want to use a lot of plants, but one or two for example Echinodorus might be nice. I have some small boulders that I would like to use as well.

This is how the aquarium looks like right now


It's not nearly finished, but at least the worst job (replacing the sand) is behind me. Do you have any comments? Is this enough wood or do I need more?
It's a bit difficult to see, but there's a cave underneath the piece of wood on the right. I also want to put at least one cave underneath the piece of wood on the right.
I still haven't decided who the residents are going to be. Today I visited a store to look at the L129 and L340 (The P. Maccus is the only one I've seen so far), but although they were supposed to be there, the aquarium was empty. I did see another beautiful fish, the L400, but they probably need a bigger aquarium.

[bekateen]

Looks nice. I like the arrangement you have, and those are good-looking pieces of wood.

Yeah, I agree - I'd add more wood and more caves if you can. Although there may be enough wood for the plecos to feed upon, the aquarium is still very "open" or "exposed," so it may make the fish feel insecure. I forget how many fish you ultimately plan to add, but I'd probably go with at least 5 or 6 caves: At least one per male, plus a few extra so that they have the option to choose and move around the tank; depending on the species of plecos you get, the females may or may not want their own caves also.

Good luck, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

Just to add things from another perspective. I have or am spawning assorted bristlenose, P. compta. H. zebra, H. contradens, L450, L236 and L173b, all in species tanks. There are only two things common to all the tanks. The first is they all have tons of cover. This includes caves, rock work and wood. My experience is some fish will use bottom level caves and some will use caves elevated off of the bottom. One good trick with the caves is to put a small piece of slate under the from of the caves so it tilts a bit towards the back. This prevents eggs from rolling out or for a clumsy dad to accidentally lose them when fanning.

The second is they all have current that runs across the front of the tank and all the caves are oriented so such flow is perpendicular to the cave mouth. How one orients the flow in a tank matters as far as I can tell. Plecos do not seem to like flow that goes directly into a cave.

Aside from that I have used more bare bottom tanks than anything else. But I have had equal success with both find gravel and sand. This also applies to grow out tanks.

My breeder tanks are set up for maximum cover. This means when I am ready to extract offspring, I literally have to take apart the entire tank and then put it back together when done. Here area a couple of photos to show you what I mean.

This is a 30 gallon breeder tank- 36x18x13 tall. I normally start new tanks with some plants- usually floaters and attached to wood. Once I am sure the tank is running well, I remove them. I do not run light over the tanks except when working in them. There were a few exceptions. Bristlenose were always in planted tanks with lights and substrate. One bare bottom tank was used to park excess fish and that included some L450s growing out. All the plants in it were on wood or rocks or planted in clay pots. I never moved them to their own tanks and they eventually spawned there. They are now in a species tank with no plants. The tank below has had no live plants in it now for 7+ years. At one time it held 13 adult zebra plecos and about 55 assorted offspring. People would look at the tank and ask why there were no fish in it. This is a bare bottom tank.



This is the L236 tank. two males have been spawning in this one for close to a year now. Note the two tails hanging out of the raised squashed caves. They were the two spawning males on spawns at the time of the pic. This tank obviously has sand.



How one may decide to aquascape pleco breeding tanks is quite variable. The key is to have the important parts and the rest is up to you. Choose bare bottom or substrate as you prefer. Plant or don't as you like. Choices of filters, pumps or powerheads is up to you as long as they are sufficient for the tank, i.e. don't underfilter.

1. Lots of cover. This inculdes space into whic fry can fit but others cannot.
2. Good oxygenation.
3. Proper circulation and flow.
4. Sufficient area so all males can have their own territory..
5. More caves than males. When choosing caves, remember that they like tight spaces. The male must be able to keep the female trapped with not too much effort until she gives up her eggs or he gives up waiting (this can be days).

As always, this is just one man's opinion.

[MarlonnekeW]

Thanks very much for all the info. This is very helpful!
I do agree with both of you that the aquarium is still way to open. This is all the wood and caves that I have at the moment, but I'm planning on buying more. In the past I've build a sort of bridge and a cave from little pieces of slate. The bridge was very popular with my cory's and the cave is used a lot by my Ancistrus (they love to hang under the 'roof'). We have a slate floor and some pieces of leftover flagstone, that I could use, so at the moment I'm trying to come up with a design that will provide hiding places as well as a few different levels to put some caves on. These builds usually turn out to be bigger than expected, so I need to reserve some free space until I know for sure what I'm going to add.
If I'm going to use plants, I want to use plants with big leaves, that will also provide some cover.

At the moment, I'm also not so sure if I should put any focus on breeding. On a Dutch forum, I received a reply that it won't be easy to sell the offspring (except maybe some special variations of BN, like the long-finned versions), because most 'regular' people with an aquarium know that pleco's are shy and not very visible, so they don't want to keep them and that there's not much demand anymore (or too much supply) from pleco enthusiasts. That was not really what I expected and with my recent experience with the cory's not really what I wanted to hear...

[MarlonnekeW]

I finally made a decision and as of today I'm the proud owner of one little P. Maccus (I think). I knew that if I bought a different species, these little guys would still be in my head.
My plan has changed a bit though. I teamed my P. Maccus up with my two Ancistrus claro. This gives me three options. If they get along well, I could leave it like this and add another pleco to my bigger aquarium. Because I have more space, I have more options to buy a suitable species. This gives me the opportunity to learn more about these species and then, when I have some more room in the future, I could buy a new (bigger) aquarium to start breeding. If I really like him, I could still decide to move my Claro's back to my bigger aquarium, turn the aquarium into a proper breeding tank and buy some more P. Maccus. But then I will have a lot more knowledge which will probably make it a bit easier to buy a good group. The third option is my safety net. If my P. maccus turns out to be very territorial, I can move him to my other aquarium which has more space (and a bigger Ancistrus sp4 female, which won't let him bully her around) and leave my Claro's in this one.

Here is a picture of the new resident:


From above:


I've tried to buy a female, but he looks very much like a male to me. He's about 5,5-6 cm from the tip of his nose to the end of his tail. I've tried to pick the one with the most pointy nose and the widest belly, but I don't think that really helped me ;). Still, I really like him and hope he will settle in soon. If I compare my picture with Eric's pictures, he does look a bit skinny around his belly, so I hope I find out which food he really likes soon, so I can help him to gain some strength.

I really want to thank you for all your help and I'll keep you posted how things are going.

[bekateen]

Your clown looks nice. If it's 5.5 - 6cm TL, then it should be about 4.5cm SL, plenty long to sex if it's in good condition. Personally, I always operate under the assumption that most pet store fish aren't well fed or are stressed in the store tanks, so they won't be in good condition. However, to qualify that, I must admit that the last three clowns I bought (2 M, 1F) were 4-4.5cm SL, and the males had very obvious body odontodes, even though all three fish were thin through the body.

So if your fish is at least 4cm not counting the tail, then if I had to guess today, I'd guess it's an underfed female, even though the body shape looks male. I just don't see any odontodes (do you see any? Is the photo clear?) and I would expect to see them on a male over 4cm. Of course I could be wrong- there are plenty of other variables which could delay odontode growth (especially if there were other really dominant males in the store tank, so I have been told), but for now that would be my guess. And also keep in mind that I was told you can't rely on head shape to sex maccus.

If there's wood in the tank, your clown will eat. Just be patient, because my new mustard spot plecos went 7 days without eating after I brought them home from the store; I didn't see one piece of poop during that time. Then, around the seventh day, it was like a flood gate had been opened on a manure factory!

Cheers, Eric

[MarlonnekeW]

Well, then I'll have to refer to my P. Maccus as 'it' for now ;). You are right though about the odontodes; they are hardly visible. I see a few tiny ones on the pectoral fin, but none on the lower part of the body. I did get a good look when it was in the bag acclimating and I didn't see any. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
It would be nice if it would be a female, because usually they are a bit less territorial. At the moment it has found a good hiding spot underneath the biggest piece of wood. It not clearly visible in the picture, but this piece is resting on the substrate on three 'branches'; the rest of the piece in 'hanging' above the substrate, which creates one big cave underneath. I'm hoping this will stay it's favorite spot, because my Claro's prefer a different kind of hiding spot (much more open) and are not very likely to go there.

Except the need for wood, the diet of my P. Maccus and Ancistrus claro is very similar (mostly vegetables with occasionally some high protein food as a treat) so this will make feeding a lot easier. There will be some kind of vegetable in the aquarium most of the time and I always feed more than one piece anyway, to make sure everyone gets the chance to eat. So diner will be served constantly ;).

[MarlonnekeW]

A little update: my P.Maccus is already feeding on one of the pieces of wood. So I don't have to worry about that anymore.
I also saw some really interesting interaction between my P. Maccus and one of the Ancistrus claro. One of my claro's seems to be very interested in other pleco's. When I kept her with my Ancistrus sp4/L144 female she would often try to be near my L144. My L144 tolerated it, until a certain point and then she would chase her of. This morning, she was trying to get near my P. Maccus. She got really close, without any problems. Once or twice my P. Maccus moved away a bit, but that was it. Most of the time it simply continued eating ;).

[Jobro]

Haha, I had to separate my LDA16 "Super Red" female from her husband, because the number of offsprings was getting out of hand. I put her into the Maccus tank. Next day I couldn't find her. Imagine not finding an orange pleco in a small 60x30x30cm tank! I got a little worried and decided to check the caves with a flashlight. There she was, stuck by a maccus male in the deeper part of a cave. Looked like perfect spawning behaviour to me

of course no eggs were laid that day. The Ancistrus female was twice as big as the Maccus and she managed to free herself soon after.

But well, you see, they seem to get along quite well with ancistrus.

[MarlonnekeW]

That's really funny!
At the moment, my most 'outgoing' Claro is trying to boss everybody around a bit. Her sister lets her chase her away, but my P. Maccus clearly does not. When my Claro gets to close, it moves about a centimeter and she quickly swims off. Its really funny to how she's trying to show how tough she is, but that my P. Maccus is absolutely not intimidated by it ;).

[MarlonnekeW]

Things are going very well with the new arrival. The last couple of days it stayed at it's favorite spot, but today my P. Maccus decided that it was time to explore the aquarium. It's out in the open checking out all the different pieces of wood. It's maybe not as active as an Ancistrus, but I don't think it's really shy either. I've read different descriptions that this species is not the right fish for people that want to see their fish every day, week or maybe even month, but that's (fortunately) not the case with my little guy (or girl).

My Claro's still really seem to enjoy the company of my P. Maccus. Here is a picture of them together.



Claro on the left and P. Maccus on the right.

[MarlonnekeW]

I hope I can ask for your advise one more time.

Today I made the final decision about this aquarium; it's going to be the home of a small group of P. Maccus. The reason is quite simple; my Ancistrus claro were clearly not happy in my 60cm aquarium. They were a lot more shy and a lot less active than in my 80cm aquarium. In the beginning I though they just needed to adjust to the new situation, but where my P. Maccus was getting less shy and more active everyday, the opposite was true for my Claro's. I don't think this had anything to do with my P. Maccus; I still haven't seen any negative interaction. It's probably something else they don't like about the aquarium (no other fish swimming around, different food, different lighting, the spot the aquarium is in etc.) or maybe I've simply spoiled them by moving them to a bigger aquarium ;).
Anyway, it's not a lot of fun looking at very shy and inactive fish (especially when they used to be very active), so in the end the decision was quite simple.

The plan is to start by adding two P. Maccus in the next couple of days and try really hard to find two females. Because I don't want the new arrivals to have to face a territorial existing resident, I'm going to remove the P. Maccus I already have, completely change the set-up and add them at the same time. I already bought a big pile of wood today to add to the aquarium and I also need a few more caves. That's were I need some more advise. What size caves do you use for P. Maccus?
At the moment I have two sizes; two small (9,5 x 2,5 x 1,7 cm) and one medium (11 x 3,2 x 2,5 cm) cave. Normally, I would think that the medium size would be more suitable, but my P. Maccus picked one of the small caves as it's favorite hiding spot. The medium caves come in different shapes, but the small ones are easier to place in the aquarium. What should I buy, small or medium?

One other thing I'm having some doubts about, is where I should buy my P. Maccus. There's another store nearby that is selling them, so to have a (small) chance at different bloodlines, it's maybe better to buy them at that store. On the other hand, on a German website there's a catalog in which they suggest that there are some different fish that are all called P. Maccus or that are closely related to P. Maccus. They for example make a difference between L162 (10cm) and L104 (6-8cm), were in the Cat-eLog on this website, they are considered to be the same species. This being said, wouldn't it be better to buy the fish at the same store to make sure they are the same species?

Thanks again for your help!

[mountainman36]

i would get the fish from the same place in this instance....these small plecos are easy to misidentify, and you may end up with the wrong fishes, and not have a pair or group of P. maccus. fyi, the specific name of the fish as written in the scientific name, you do not capitalize the second (species) name. the genus is capitalized (the first name).

As for the caves, variaty is good, but these are small fish, so the smaller may be better.
Good luck!