L204 Sexing

[Triactis Trainer]

Hey there PC people!

Today I come to you again for aid in sexing a beautiful couple of L204 Flash Plecos. Pictures were quite a pain to get with my better camera, but I did snag a few. More pictures can be provided in due time. I would like to let them settle into their new tank before I drag them out for more pictures!

1 (I presume F due to it being less "hairy")
http://i.imgur.com/rXyCMS5.jpg?1

2 (Hopefully male, definitely more odontodes along the body and especially the tail)
http://i.imgur.com/QaWAC7w.jpg

Some more info to help with sexing (I hope).
These fish are both WC and were purchased at .75-1". The presumed male is just above 3" TL, where the female is 2.5" TL. They are over 3 years old. They have been feeding on a mix of repashy gels, fresh greens, Hikari algae wafers and sinking carnivore pellets. I also feed an occasional cut prawn every now and then. I have recently decided that this will be my newest breeding attempt after finishing up with some dwarf cichlids. Hopefully someone can help to sex. Any and all thoughts are greatly appreciated!!!

[bekateen]

Are you sure they aren't both males, with #1 (your "female") just a little smaller than #2, and thus the explanation of the smaller posterior odontodes?

Cheers, Eric

[Triactis Trainer]

This could very well be possible. Maybe the larger of the two is more dominant??? These fish aren't really in my area of expertise. I have only recently begun thoroughly looking into them. From reading the breeding reports and looking at several pairs of them though, I have found that even some of the females have rather vast odontode growth across their tails. I don't have enough experience to say whether or not it is species specific, whereas in some Leporacanthicus I know odontodes aren't a very reliable way of sexing them. I've found that the females can have almost just as many as males.

[bekateen]

If you haven't already done so, I recommend that you read the Catfish of the Month article on L204 (here) and the Shane's World article about spawning L204 (here). There are also two breeding logs recorded for this species on its CLOG page (here) that are worth looking at.

That's a beautiful fish. I'd give my wisdom teeth to get some of these (just kidding, I don't have them anymore. They were pulled years ago, but not by me and not for any fish. LOL).

Good luck, friend.
Eric

[Narwhal72]

I used to keep a large group of them and the females do not have the extensive odontodes yours are showing. I am pretty confident you have two males there.

[Linus_Cello]

These are supposedly tricky to breed, so I think most are wild collected. The males seem to be much easier to catch (as they roam and patrol their territory), so I'm not surprised folks are ID'ing these as males. I got 4 from someone who personally collected them in Peru; not surprisingly all males (but they are quite active and out and about quarreling amongst themselves).

[Triactis Trainer]

If you haven't already done so, I recommend that you read the Catfish of the Month article on L204 (here) and the Shane's World article about spawning L204 (here). There are also two breeding logs recorded for this species on its CLOG page (here) that are worth looking at.

That's a beautiful fish. I'd give my wisdom teeth to get some of these (just kidding, I don't have them anymore. They were pulled years ago, but not by me and not for any fish. LOL).

Good luck, friend.
Eric

Thank you for the sources of great infromation! After looking over the articles provided, I think I may need to wait to get a better sex on them. The breeding article provided states that the smallest male/female were almost double the sizes of mine. I can't say for sure that it means that these fish are not sexually mature, but I still think they have to get some more size to them before I attempt to reliably sex them and begin breeding attempts. Although, some of the pictures on the CLOG page for breeding shows a pair that appears to be similar in size to mine. Without point of reference it is hard to tell the actual size of those fish.

[Triactis Trainer]

These are supposedly tricky to breed, so I think most are wild collected. The males seem to be much easier to catch (as they roam and patrol their territory), so I'm not surprised folks are ID'ing these as males. I got 4 from someone who personally collected them in Peru; not surprisingly all males (but they are quite active and out and about quarreling amongst themselves).

I always seem to find one buried in one of my clay caves, whereas the larger one enjoys roaming and grazing on the bogwood that is provided in the tank. The other rarely comes out during the day. I know you are referencing the fish in their wild habitat, but could that be transferable to the home aquarium as well? I said somewhere above that this may just be a dominance issue in which the smaller male might just be hiding? Looking for some more insight to this theory.

[Narwhal72]

One of our club members just posted today that he has L204 wigglers in the cave. I am reasonably sure he actually has fish that were one of my groups that he got from the guy I sold them to 2 years ago. They were about 3" SL when I got them. Don't know how big they are now.

Andy

[bekateen]

After looking over the articles provided, I think I may need to wait to get a better sex on them. The breeding article provided states that the smallest male/female were almost double the sizes of mine. I can't say for sure that it means that these fish are not sexually mature, but I still think they have to get some more size to them before I attempt to reliably sex them and begin breeding attempts.

I understand that yours may still need to grow more before being ready to spawn, but you may be missing an important point. Even if your two fish are too small to spawn, the growth of odontodes along the posterior flanks might indicate already that these fish are both males:

The much coveted reproduction success in this species can be accomplished with some patience, they are difficult to sex before they reach a mature size (around 9-10 cm SL) when the males start to grow odontodes on their backs. Both sexes have interopercular odontodes of almost the same size except that males are slightly thicker; the pectoral odontodes are also small on this species so it is easiest to sex them are the body shape; females are much more rounded and stubbier compared with males. All that said, as soon as a male starts to grow odontodes on the back half of his body, there are no longer any doubts what sex they are. (Emphasis added)

they can be difficult to sex before they reach a mature size which is around 9-10 cm SL and is when the males start to grow odontodes on their backs. Both sexes have interopercular odontodes of almost the same size except that males are slightly thicker, the pectoral odontodes are also small on this species so it is easiest to sex them are the body shape; females are much more rounded and stubbier compared with males but as soon as a male starts to grow body odontodes, there can be no doubts as to what sex they are.... The most dominant male is also that male with the most developed odontodes on the body (Emphasis added)

I don't want to say definitively, but in these two resources by Janne Ekström, he reiterates that odontal growth on the posterior flanks is indicative of males. Even with this evidence, I can understand your confusion and uncertainty, since no clear pictures of females at the same size/age are available for photographic comparison (maybe females have as much odontal growth as your fish #1 has... but I doubt it). IMHO, I think you need to start shopping around for females.

Good luck, Eric

[Triactis Trainer]

Thanks for the in depth look at those sources. I was hoping for a pair, although, this gives me a reason to buy more fish I appreciate everyone's help in this thread for the information provided!!!

[jac]

They are both males. Have you seen my post, it may help you: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=39378