Spawning L127 - hypostomus/ancistrinae unae

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 19 Dec 2003, 13:09

Hi friends

I thought i would share some of my recent success. In Australia plecos are hard to come by and normally cost an arm and a leg...

I managed to buy my first real pleco (bristlenose dont count). It was a L127. I had no idea of it sex other than it was large. Upon talking to a friend in another state i was advised that they may have a male i could look at to see if it was a) same species and b if mine was a female.

The answer was yes to both. I had a female and the male sent was another L127. I have only had these fish together for 1 month. Low and behold. The man was fanning and to my joy it looked like 30 - 50 which jelly blobs jumping around.

This was discovered on tuesday, Today being friday i started to find some fry doing a wander. They still have yolk sacks but seems to be moving out. Some of the fry appear to have died. Not sure if this cause of the filtration or some othe cause. I has moved the fry to a fry saver to monitor there progress and see if i can be successful in raising them. There appears to be a little over 30 fry surviving...

There is no other tank inhabitants. These lucky fish have a 3x18x18 to themselves

If anyone else has bred this catfish and info would be appreciated...

Thanks
Michael

aurea@optushome.com.au

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 19 Dec 2003, 16:04

Hey, that's quite an accomplishment! Do you have any pictures? What size are the fish?

Jools

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 19 Dec 2003, 20:50

Hello,

I have to agree with Jools. This is quite an accomplishment. I have only seen this fish locally once and they were quite rough. I'm curious what the recent tank maintenance and water parameters were. This may help with establishing what the trigger was.

Thanks,
Larry Vires

Post by **Shane** » 19 Dec 2003, 23:08

Which L 127? L 127 from DATZ is a small Ancistrinae from the Rio Orinoco. L 127 in Aqualog appears to be the same, or a very similar, fish but is listed as coming from the Rio Lara in Brazil. Can you post a photo? Anyone know what the disconnect was here between DATZ and Aqualog?
-Shane

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 20 Dec 2003, 07:58

Hi guys

I have updated the pictures to show now the male and female. Not the males cauliflower like tufts....

Water Parameters :

PH = 7
GH - to be completed
KH - to be completed
Ammonia = 0

Regards
Michael
aurea@optushome.com.au

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Dec 2003, 08:35

I'm not aware of another spawning of this species - all we can do from this one is learn! I'm fairly certain it isn't Hypostomus unae either (I think I can see interopercular spines - not something to expect in Hypostomus). A close-up would show this.

I could be wrong and perhaps LDA meister Erwin can shed more light on this but I would say that the fish Aqualog shows as L127 (and indeed L072) is actually LDA18 and this fish we are looking at is actually LDA18 which maybe a species of Hemiancistrus / Peckoltia.

Confused? Even more reason to record and persevere with this species!

Jools

Sooty · Post by **Sooty** » 20 Dec 2003, 11:26

Congratulations mate!

All the best raising em!

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Dec 2003, 11:32

I should also say that I am posting pictures of the real L127 online today. Can someone grab Erwin and see what he thinks?

Jools

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 20 Dec 2003, 11:38

Hi jools...

This fish i am sure are L127... the scientific name is different in a few books but is same fish.

In aqualog is is listed as a hypostomus unae... will i dont think they are a hypostomus they certaince could be an ancistranae unae l127 as listed in the Fish Atlas (thick black nook)

The pictures and features are the same. They do have small interopercular spines the male gets califlower type tufts around his... Female does not,

The fish could be as old as 7 years. Apparently they had been bred once and only 5 - 7 fry resulted and these two being a result of that... The likelyhood is they are brother and sister due to limited availablility to any fish in general and especially catfish...

I have a Fluval 404 on a 3x18x18 and they spawned in a ceramic tube... From my observations they like to bury in the gravel... Maybe they prefer sand ?

The eyes appear to be on top alittle and body slight compressed indicating may be a sand burrower ? Only a thought... I have found it hard finding info on L127

On this web they are listed as an ancistrinae so believe this maybe a more appropriate genus as apposed to aqualogs reference to hypostomus

(see http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/lo ... thumbs.htm)

Regards
Michael

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 20 Dec 2003, 11:40

Hi,

I don't know why in the old aqualog (yes - its the old(!) aqualog all l-numbers now, the new one is just in print and will be available in mid january 2004) L127 was labeled as comming from rio Lara/Brazil, because the picture is mine and was taken from a fish comming from a Venezuela shipment. L127 is comming from an area at the border to Columbia. But you can tell Columbian specimens apart from Venezuelan ones, because in the latter the patterns are more gracile.

I think that Michael's picture does show L127 (a Venezuelan specimen) and not LDA18. But I also had to say that both species could be confused. Both show a large variety in their pattern.

Nice success with breeding these guys Michael!

Erwin

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 20 Dec 2003, 11:42

Hi!

Congratulation on spawning these little guys...

I also doubt it is Hypostomus unae.
Do you have more information such as how long it took the eggs to hatch, how many days it took to absorb their yolk sac...
What do you feed them?
Water TÂ°
filtration?

Cheers
Yann

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Dec 2003, 11:48

aurea23 wrote:This fish i am sure are L127... the scientific name is different in a few books but is same fish.

In aqualog is is listed as a hypostomus unae... will i dont think they are a hypostomus they certaince could be an ancistranae unae l127 as listed in the Fish Atlas (thick black nook)

The pictures and features are the same. They do have small interopercular spines the male gets califlower type tufts around his... Female does not,

The points I were making were:

a) Aqualog lists the location for L127 as Brazil but L127 comes from Venezuela - perhaps here Aqualog have the right picture but the wrong locality. LDA18 and the fish pictured (wrongly) as L72 in Aqualog are very similar but appear to be more like Peckoltia, they are from Brazil.

b) It isn't a Hypostomus becasue it has spines.

Also, Baensch Photo Index lists it as Lithoxancistrus sp. an ID which seems more likely but I am taking the conservative route of placing it as Ancistrinae sp. L127. Even that is contentious as the sub-family Ancistrinae is up in the air somewhat at the moment.

The most important fact is that you have had a spawning and we would certaily like to see what happens with that and help if we can.

Jools

Post by **Shane** » 20 Dec 2003, 13:40

Erwin,
Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it looked like one of your photos. The pictured fish looks just like the ones I see coming through here via Puerto Carreno on the Rio Orinoco. I have a couple of these and maybe I will start paying more attention to them now. Michael, congrats on the spawning!
-Shane

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 20 Dec 2003, 13:52

Update : i am down to 30 fry now exactly

they are bout 14 mm in length and still have the sack. they are in a fry saver as they were escaping the cave and were in danger of the fluval.....

I have added an airstone... hopefully this may help them out abit... unsure why i have lost fry atm... hoping to get camera to take some pics

michael

Post by **Barbie** » 20 Dec 2003, 22:26

In order to keep the water quality up in net breeder baskets and such, I put an air driven sponge filter next to it, and then route the outflow of the water into the basket. It makes a huge difference in survival rates, IME.

Barbie

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 21 Dec 2003, 12:46

Hi Guys

Here is another pic of the female and some of the fry

Michael
aurea@optushome.com.au

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 21 Dec 2003, 21:14

HI!

Great pictures!!!
What are the age of the fry shown here?
By the way what is the size of the parents?
Cheers
Yann

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 22 Dec 2003, 00:59

Yann

the fry are 12 - 14 mm

The adult pair are about 4 - 4.5 inches...( about 15 - 17 cms at a guess)

Regards

Michael

aquaholic · Post by **aquaholic** » 22 Dec 2003, 02:57

Micheal,
Congradulations on babies. A little more info for you which might help you out.
These fish were first bought and sold in Australia approx 12 years ago as Peckoltia bolivia. I am unsure how accurate this name is but might give people some help in working out what they are.

The first spawn didn't happen until those fish were at least 5 years old. It also happened within a month of them going into a new tank which had a lot of large pieces of wood, fairly dark tannic water and 2 of the flushing eheim canister filters. They used to spawn reasonably regularly in this tank after large water changes. Batches were around 50 each time. Fry were always left in with parents and other cichlid species since they were too hard to remove. (Did I mention the wood were LARGE pieces?). High dissolved oxygen levels is essential to induce spawns.

The male you recieved is from fry of one of those earlier spawnings and is indeed seven years old. I have also seen what I think are some smaller ones recently at Rod Wallaces store in Parramatta.
For your next batch, I'd recommend you place a sponge over your fluval intake and just leave them in with parents. You could also cultivate algae on hardwood sticks (cultured outside on a rotation basis and immersed in infusoria) as the babies eat readily.

Hope this helps

Winston

Post by **Shane** » 22 Dec 2003, 12:58

It also happened within a month of them going into a new tank which had a lot of large pieces of wood, fairly dark tannic water and 2 of the flushing eheim canister filters.

Makes sense, this is pretty much similar to the upper Orinoco where they come from. Warm water, high current (the current above Puerto Carreno is so strong that it makes the Orinoco impassible most of the year) and blackwaters. I am still kicking myself in the butt that I did not bring back some water from there on my last trip for later chemical analysis, but it is certainly very soft and slightly acidic.
-Shane

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 22 Dec 2003, 13:11

Hi Shane

I posted some more pics are the ancistrinae unae ?

Thanks
Michael

00 MooRRii 00 · Post by **00 MooRRii 00** » 22 Dec 2003, 15:15

Congrats mike.

Post by **Shane** » 22 Dec 2003, 18:06

Michael,
L 127 appears to be an undescribed sp. H. unae was described from the Rio Una near Bahia, Brazil. So, we can say with confidence they are not the same sp.
-Shane

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 Dec 2003, 21:14

Michael,

Would you willing to let me use a few of these pics in the cat-elog?

Jools

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 22 Dec 2003, 21:40

Michael,

Would it be possible to also get a pic of the male? The dimorphism, if visible could also give an idea of the genus if it even fits into one.

Thanks,
Larry Vires

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 22 Dec 2003, 22:50

Hi Larry

On Page 1 of the post i have added some more pictures including the male. He does have cauliflower type tufts near the gills. Hope this helps

Thanks
Michael

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 23 Dec 2003, 01:08

Hi Jools

I forgot to add "YES" you are welcome to use the photos for the website

Michael

aquaholic · Post by **aquaholic** » 23 Dec 2003, 01:20

Michael,
Excellent photos. Even the glass is spotless! My favourite one is the very first shot showing both fish. One day I hope you can get some future shots of eggs in the pipe or the male fanning.

Winston

aurea23 · Post by **aurea23** » 23 Dec 2003, 02:01

Hi Winston

I am sure next spawn i will try borrow camera and try get some shops of him in the cave fanning the eggs....

For now need to concentrate on trying to raise the remaining fry...

Michael

Link2Hell · Post by **Link2Hell** » 25 Dec 2003, 04:32

Good to hear you cracked them Mike and good to see you branching out from your Tangs
I think there is someone in Melb a bit envious lolol

Winston are these from Mick's pair of "P sp. Bolivians" ?

Once again good work and great pics

If only we could get the fish range that the rest of the world can

L2H

Spawning L127 - hypostomus/ancistrinae unae

Spawning L127 - hypostomus/ancistrinae unae

Pictures of female L127

Re L127

Re: Re L127

More pictures

L127

nice

L127

pics of L127

pics of cave

nice