Don't house iridescent shark catfish or channel catfish with a Harlequin shark

[Viktor Jarikov]

Skinned IDS - WARNING - gruesome pics.

I had made an error placing my three IDS and the Harlequin shark in one tank (4500 gal) initially.

In 2 days, I saw the shark started chasing and bothering the IDSs, suctioning to their body. When I returned by nighttime, the shark would not stop, having ignored the food again. So I rehomed it into the other 4500 gal.

The biggest IDS (2.5') got 95% of the "action". It didn't look so bad at first. Not much of discoloration at all. Looked like soft, very minor, large area, very weak abrasions / imprints. So I thought the Harlequin shark was merely rasping the slime. But in 2-3 days, the affected parts of skin on the IDS crusted up and in a week or two they fell off.

It's been a month now since the attacks and the big IDS has been healing up so far, so good. It got skinned on both sides. Blind IDS rescue got some damage too. The third smallest IDS has not been damaged.

I have not put and two together but I think my two Harlequins were behind the deaths with similar symptoms of my two 2.5' albino channels. Plus 8 large pacu have been biting off channels' fins bit by bit in the same temporary pond.

***********************************************************************************

The big 2.5' IDS:

[Viktor Jarikov]

Blind IDS rescue, ~20":

[Viktor Jarikov]

~1' Harlequin shark

[Viktor Jarikov]

Just to note that the Harlequins have NOT been able to do anything like this to any other tank / pond mates.

[Richard B]

That's incredible Viktor - what species is the Harlequin as it doesn't look like what I know to be a harlequin over here in the UK?

[Richard B]

Labeo cyclorhynchus

, is what we see over here but yours looks like Barbatulus

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thank you, Richard. I always appreciate help.

I bought two of these 3 years ago from Aquarium and Reef Center, Cape Coral, FL, $27 each, at ~3". They came in as calico (AFAIU synonym for variegated) sharks.

Yeah, I am not very sure of the ID as Labeo variegatus or Labeo cf. variegatus or Labeo cyclorynchus (it does have a round nose ). My short looking around says these names appear synonymous and the sharks are referred to as Harlequin sharks and vary in appearance.

But you may be quite right as mine don't have the coloration of a calico and these pics by Jean-Francois with a barbatulus look close or closer? More opinions, corrections are welcome. http://www.fishbase.org/Photos/Thumbnai ... barbatulus

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The skinned IDS fed yesterday for the first time since the incident. There is hope.

[Richard B]

With good water & diet & the culprit removed, full recovery shouldn't be too difficult

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thank you, again. I've never dealt with a fish with half the skin removed, so I was wondering if the IDS'd survive such expansive damage.

Also on a possible explanation of why the Labeo attacks seemed rather innocent or inconsequential, leading to approx. zero external damage (initially): the damage could have been almost strictly internal, i.e., the suctioning by the shark was so strong that it separated all the layers of skin all together from the flesh beneath while leaving the skin looking intact on the outside.

Is that possible? Do the Labeos produce such powerful suction or is IDS's skin is bonded rather weakly to the tissue below or both?

I remember ~7 years ago I was going to get a 2' black shark and our colleague here Linus_Cello (EDIT: or could have been Knifegill) casually mentioned it'd kill everything in the tank/pond. I wonder if the modus operandi of the black shark would be the same. Anyone?

And in general, has anyone observed anything like this? I am earnestly wondering if this is a fluke or a natural consequence. So far I can vouch for two occurrences - involving IDS and channel catfishes.

[Richard B]

Labeo species have quite variable mouthparts and some are 'aggressive raspers' others far less so.

The Harlequin I've had was a inquisitive bully & when it took an interest in certain species it would not leave them alone & would follow them everywhere making them stressed , but did no physical damage.

We've seen otocinclus & small ancistrus feed on the mucus coating of discus etc & these species do occur together in nature & this event is exacerbated in the confines of an aquarium.

To the best of my knowledge both your fish can be found together in the wild so this may be a 'natural parasitic' occurance not recorded from the wild but witnessed in captivity. I don't think many people actually keep your sort of Labeo Viktor, so captive occurances would be seldom seen & documented?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Interesting addition, Richard.

Yeah, I realize 'twas a long shot but I felt I should ask the community.

Let me ask this question then. What symptoms follow the parasitic rasping of slime? I've never experienced it with my fishes, at least I don't think so.

Is the rasping just a kind of sucking action... or gentle, soft scraping... or is it more like the abrasive action of a file (tool) on skin?

Does the skin fall off from the affected areas...
... or is the skin obviously and substantially damaged...
... or is the slime merely replaced and the skin remains as if nothing much happened (as appeared initially in my case)?

I apologize if this appears a stubborn, silly questioning but I'd like to understand and learn.

[Shovelnose]

Labeo are the most aggressive cyprinids I have ever kept in the aquaria or even encountered. I haven't seen rasping, just plain tearing apart of other fish but they always let the smallest barbs alone . I had a C.chagunio that was torn apart in the belly region and there was nothing left inside by one of my Labeo dyocheilus. I still think they are among the most beautiful looking barbs ever (with my favoutire being L.angra).


From another post :

I haven't kept this particular species but almost all the Indian Labeo I have kept are insanely aggressive and will rip smaller fish apart. I carried two Labeo specimens from north India to my home last week and one had taken out the eye of the other in transit. Both the specimens eventually went to a friend who dropped it in a tank filled with barbs and those poor barbs now look like they belong to an undescribed genus (no caudal fins ).

[Shovelnose]

This was one of the species I kept (and call Labeo cf.dyocheilus).

[Scleropages]

Labeo cyclorhynchus are among the nastiest freshwater fish I've ever kept. Certain species got a pass, but many were ruthlessly hunted down in a few of my tanks before I decided I was not going to put up with it and got rid of the shark.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I appreciate the help of those who chimed in. Anyone else?

The IDS has been feeding (much less than usual but nevertheless) and healing. LHS and RHS same as in the pics above:

[Scleropages]

Viktor, how big is that Distichodus?

[Viktor Jarikov]

~10". He's mellowed up a lot in large enclosures. Was aggressive in a 120 gal when it was ~5", e.g., teamed up with a 4" giant gourami to kill a 6" clown knife, bothered two 6" dats, etc.

[N0body Of The Goat]

There seems to be very few pictures/videos of adult Labeo cyclorhynchus out there, but the few that do come up, shock me in terms of how different they look to the ~7cm SL babies that sometimes arrive in fish store. There seems to be a massive variance in what is their typical adult size too, some places suggesting ~15cm SL while others talk of ~30cm SL...

If everyone is talking about the same species.

I've got six ~7-15cm SL Distichodus affinis/altus and one much larger ~25cm SL Distichodus which I currently think is a D. rostratus, but they have nothing on the teeth that Distichodus sexfasciatus and lusosso have!

Pretty amazing that the IDS has survived this shredding so far and no doubt you are at least partly responsible for that, Viktor.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks, mate! Where can I see pics of your disties? I thoroughly doubt I've helped the IDS. I think it is the fish's and its Maker's credit.

On the Labeo... It's interesting to observe its interactions with tank mates. It's one tough fish or at least one with an attitude. It attacks with this suction technique a 1.5' pacu and both TSNs (1.5' and 2') every now and then. They run away skillfully not letting the Labeo attach or the Labeo is not as persistent or earnest as it was with the IDSs. Labeo's appetite, satisfied or not, makes no difference in this behavior.

It respectfully gives way to both large zungaro (2'+) and the RTC (2'). The interaction with a smaller zungaro (2'-) is kind of funny sometimes. Mostly it is the same as with the other zungaro and the RTC but the smaller zungaro is guarding its personal space more aggressively and sometimes chases the Labeo around. It runs away but without losing much dignity, sometimes even challenging the catfish to a stand off, puffing up all fins, displaying itself sidewise trying to look its biggest and meanest. Most of the time, when the catfish stops chasing it (not much, 0.5 -1 lap around a 13'x13'x4.5') and is swimming away to its place, the Labeo follows it immediately, as if chasing the zungaro back but as soon as the catfish stops and turns around, the Labeo stops too and starts passionately (really, that's the word) displaying a feeding behavior, sucking around on the bottom, as if saying "I'm just feeding, minding my own business, no threat here" while clearly it has just displayed a threat a moment ago when the cat was swimming away.

I have not seen once the Labeo to attempt the sucking thing on either zungaros or the RTC. Sometimes it looks like it wants to, it's positioning to try it but has not crossed that line yet.

The only one with no interaction so far is a 2' TSNxLeiarius. Neither one pays attention to the other.

[naturalart]

Victor, maybe this will shed some light on what is going on with the group of fishes. Also, hippos exude a 'red' substance through their skin as a sunscreen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XfdTvL-0oA

[turtle lover]

Wow, stunned that a fish said to grow 5 feet long can be shredded like that.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks much, Naturalart. That link's awfully relevant.

Turtle lover, in the words of Cosmo Kramer "it's not the size but the ferocity".

Anyway, here is a short update. The IDS has been healing ok. Will snap some pics. Long story short, I had to temporarily house two very tough bullies namely 1.5' walking catfish with the Labeo in a (nominally) 240 gal 8'x2'x2'. One was killed by the Labeo in 1.5 days, the other in 3 days. It didn't look like much external damage was done so it must have been ~ all stress and most of it overnight as during the day I have not noted too vicious of bullying by the Labeo.

The Labeo has been housed with a 1.5' common pleco now for a few weeks with no consequences to the pleco.

[mostlyfairy]

Wow, the picture of your shark catfish- he is so husky, strong and magnificent looking. Not the stick bug creature I am dealing with. Its so hard to even believe the creature I have could be the same being in your picture-yours looks so healthy. I see you rescued yours-thank you for doing that. I guess these poor shark catfish often suffer a terrible fate because they are sold to unknowing hobbyists and then start growing. Its so wrong. Please take a look at my thread if you have any time and words of advice. I am trying to save the life of a very very badly abused shark catfish- 15 years old and only SIX INCHES LONG! His story is amazing-left in a 5 gallon bucket for four days to die. He is doing okay so far with me, I made a nice home for him for now. I know nothing about aquariums even but I am the one who found him. Racoll is helping me. My thread is here:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =9&t=42123

I was wondering when the best time is to feed them-if they are nocturnal feeders. Nacho is being finicky about eating so far and he is emaciated-trying to teach him to eat worms per racoll's advice.

[Viktor Jarikov]

A short update. Had to house an adult flowerhorn with the Labeo for 3 weeks. Flowerhorn has not stopped abusing the Labeo all this time. Labeo did nothing but run away. Nowadays, back to normal. Flowerhorn's in a solitary 240 gal confinement. Will eventually go back to 4500 gal where it behaved before more or less.

[Viktor Jarikov]

As before, a huge change in Flowerhorn in 4500 gal. No aggression noticed to any tank mates over ~3 weeks.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Update on the Labeo ID.

Thanks to Cichlas (of MFK) for pointing me to Labeo rubropunctatus, which is a junior synonym to the currently accepted Labeo congoro or purple labeo http://www.fishbase.org/summary/Species ... ng=English - the photo by Johnny Jensen looks much like my fish.

(MFK thread for reference http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... st-7432826 posts #8, 9, 10 etc.)

[Viktor Jarikov]

Don't look at the photos, again, if you are faint of heart...

In all fairness to my Labeo congoro, yes, it is horrible but not as horrible as the foregoing might indicate. Recent developments imply rather that my big IDS was unusual and not resisting abuse as my others do or perhaps as would be the norm.

For over 8 months, the 4500 gal where the IDS lived was also inhabited by 4 synodontis, 6” and 8” eupterus and 6” and 10” common hybrids #1. Thinking backwards I guess every now and then 2 of the synos (big eupterus and small hybrid) would rasp / suck some slime off the big IDS, just a bit, not enough to make any difference. This went on for 7 months. All was fine in the big tank, except the big IDS, which fed with gusto before, stopped eating and was swimming a lot (the autopsy showed it was full of eggs and was probably "migrating").

As the fate has it, I had to work 3 days in a row and was not around the tank, neither fed the tank as much as usual, ~2x less. In these 3 days, the 2 synos managed to stress the IDS and damage the skin as badly as the Labeo did. Again, as in the Labeo case, the damage was latent and became evident only several days later when the skin started to peel off altogether. That was occurring in the other 4500 gal tank, to which I had rehomed the IDS. Then it passed in some days or I rather had to put it out of its misery.

The other 4 IDS (1.5’, 1.5’, 10”, 9”) in the first 4500 gal appear to be totally fine with the synos and when the synos try to approach the IDS, they promptly swim away. The big one never did. I've no clue why it wouldn't. Not when it fed super well. Not when it was "migrating". Not in its last 3 days in that first 4500 gal. The synos never pursue the IDS, only approach them when the IDS happen to swim by.

I'm much saddened by the loss. The big IDS was my first rescue in Naples, FL when we moved. It was ~8" in Mar 2011. Reached 2' in under 2 years and grew very slowly afterwards. Mar 2016 it measured 28" TL post mortem.

Here it is 2 weeks before the attack, healthy, upper right corner:

You can see it let the synos to "skin" the whole front end and top. Still alive in the other 4500 gal. Necrotizing tissue got "mossy" and is falling off:

Post mortem with tape measure:

[bekateen]

Sorry Victor. It's really difficult to know what's going through a fish's mind and also what's bothering a fish. You've got a tough job with these big fish.

Regards, Eric

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks, Eric.

Yea, with this IDS it appears I was thrown quite a curve ball. I had no idea it would let the synos just skin itself and so suddenly but, again in retrospect, it could have also been that it got quite weary and tired from swimming around on an empty stomach with a load of high-maintenance eggs. It was not too thin though.

Neither do I understand why sucking off slime would cause the skin to die off completely, throughout the entire skin depth all the way to the tissue. Catfish skin is very durable, tough. With Labeo at least I thought it was the powerful vacuum it creates with its mouth that detached the skin from muscle but looks like I was wrong. Just remove the slime and the skin is gone. Why it's not gone when the slime is removed when catching in a net and handling, I don't get.

When the big IDS disappeared, one of the other larger IDS, 1.5'+, the one near center in the first photo above, has been sulking for weeks. I wonder if it was affected by the hormones that the gravid IDS was releasing in the water that suddenly stopped. Maybe it's a male. IDK. But it stopped eating and was pacing nervously by the window back and forth. It slowly started eating and swimming around now.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Another case of synodontis vampire behavior this time our 15 yo hybrid synodontis on two 14" snail bullheads:

post #6 https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... us.696696/