Synodontis Lateral Line Erosion?

[Karl K]

I have a Synodontis Eupterus, that has had something that might look like lateral line erosion for like half a year.
It doesnt seem to be affecting the other fish, its with some other synos and Frontosa. I acually though it had some to do with diet, i remember reading that here, i think.
Well i started feeding a little differently, mainly feeding for vegetable, and algea wafers. Well hes about 8 inches, and seem to be doing fine. I havent really seen him eat lately, but hes fat and i feed my cats with lights off. I just saw another thread about something similar.

[Birger]

If you do a forum search here you can find some information on this as well.

Well hes about 8 inches, and seem to be doing fine.

Does that mean the white has dissapeared??

Birger

[Karl K]

If you do a forum search here you can find some information on this as well.

Well hes about 8 inches, and seem to be doing fine.

Does that mean the white has dissapeared??

Birger

No, its still there.
I'll post a picture later.

[FeatherFinMama]

Hello Karl,

I participated in a thread about this subject maybe a year ago here. I have 2 Eupterus I got as juveniles in 1990. They were always healthy until I moved them to a 250g and started doing daily small water changes to keep nitrates below 10ppm so I would not have to clean algae from that gigantic tank. Before long the cats started developing what looked like blotches of white-out along the lateral lines. No other symptoms.

After coming here I learned this is thought to be a skin de-pigmentation that is not well understood. But the scientific paper I read which someone here linked to noted that algae and Vit C seem to make it to go away.

In my experience this is true, as I had to move them from the 250g back to the 60g and for years the white line persisted while I continued my aggressive maintenance, not allowing excessive algae or high nitrates (something I never worried about for the first 10yrs of their lives and they were always healthy!). Then in 2010 a family illness caused me to abandoned the tank basically, except for feeding, adding RO for evap, and using BioChemZorb. I didn't do water changes for months on end. And at the end of that, with nitrates sky high and plenty of algae growing on the wood and rocks to eat... the white blotches disappeared for the first time in 8 years (since they first appeared)!

Having time once again, I started back into maintaining the tank in 2011 with regular water changes and.... the white lines returned. And persisted. Then last year after I wrote in here and got some advice I bought some spirulina flake and kelp tablets (augmented with all the other usual stuff)... and one of the cats did get eventually improve. His white line has been reduced to a light trace of tiny little dots in a line, barely noticeable. The other cat's condition is unchanged, (and he has some round gray de-pigmentation on his jaw... a few circles). Otherwise he seems normal.

I really wish there was more info on this condition! It might not be harmful to the cats but something causes it, and it has to be something reversible. It seems like having natural algae in the tank works a LOT better than processed fish food.

[EDIT] After reviewing the paper on LLD I found I mis-remembered a LOT. This is in fact what Birger said all along... lateral line erosion or hole in the head. It was induced in the lab via fasting so chronic malnutrition might be one cause but the paper said it can have different causes and it isn't quite clear in all cases what does cause it. I did discover when I read that paper last year that the foods I was feeding were made with crap mostly (aside from the frozen bloodworms, and a few other things). For example, algae wafers do not contain algae. Anyway you might want to read the paper in the upcoming post...

[Karl K]

Thanks FeatherFinMama, seems like the same im expiriencing.
Ill try to feed more varieted with more fresh vegetables. If you reduce water changes, arent you worried that the effects like ammonia, nitrites and nitrates is worse than whats causing the white lateral line?

[FeatherFinMama]

Water changes only reduce nitrates... the biological filter keeps ammonia and nitrite at zero, regardless of how few water changes you do. Even if you didn't do water changes for 10 years and just added RO to top off evaporation, ammonia and nitrite would be zero. (This assumes a fully cycled tank with a healthy biofilter of course.)

Nitrates have developed a worse reputation than they once had. I recently scanned past some reference to scientific studies that claimed elevated nitrates can indeed cause toxicity, blindness and I forget what else it said. I did not see the research myself so I don't know how true that is, or HOW elevated the nitrates were in the case studies. I DO know I read a research paper that said trout (I think?) were unaffected by nitrates of up to 500m/l and I do suspect that nitrates have to be VERY elevated to cause problems in fish. But if I needed to know the answer absolutely, I'd look into it before reverting to high nitrates again, and I might do that if feeding more Spirulina doesn't work.

Because the only reason to revert to high nitrates is to get a lot more algae growing in the tank, and then feed them less so they eat more algae and less fish food. And that WILL get rid of the depigmentation, but whether it [high nitrates] causes secondary problems I could not tell you. All I can say is they looked healthy and happy. But I wouldn't go on that alone.

My advice is to try what I am trying ... feed more algae and Vit C-enriched food. (FTR you might want to read the ingredients of any "algae wafers" before buying, as most do not contain algae but are made with wheat and other cr*p. If they contain algae it's listed way late in the ingredients which means there is very little of it.)

I bought Zoo Med Spirulina 20 flake, which they love. (But spirulina is still only the 2nd ingredient after salmon meal... try to find algae food that has algae listed first! I couldn't!) So maybe I just need to feed it more often. I started feeding it every morning about a week ago, and will feed them other food at night... I also got "spirulina enriched frozen brine shrimp" but don't know how much good that does. IAC I plan to give this trial a few months, then I might consider some other plan... I was even considering growing algae in a 10g tank and then transferring it to the cat tank... somehow. Or maybe they sell frozen algae cubes (that are actual pure algae)... ??

But the good news is, it's only unsightly. It doesn't seem to have any physiological ramifications. That's what the scientific study said anyway, and it's also been my experience, from what I can tell. [EDIT] I did not remember this paper as well as I thought... there are ramifications in that at the very least the fish with this condition might be more susceptible to disease. Though there was no significant differences found in the health of the control fish vs the LLD fish aside from the LLD. But I'd recommend reading the paper yourself.

[Birger]

But the good news is, it's only unsightly. It doesn't seem to have any physiological ramifications.

Just to clarify, what is "it's"...in this statement?

Are you talking of the lateral line problem? Which can develop further problems.

Birger

[FeatherFinMama]

This specific condition is not lateral line disease. [EDIT: Snipped rest as I was wrong. I re-read the paper and it is LLE or HITH or HILE but they call it LLD because they say it's more of a clinical sign (of malnutrition or possibly other causes) than a disease. Anyway, it's best if anyone who has cats with this condition just reads the paper themselves, linked in the upcoming post.]

[FeatherFinMama]

I found the original post by Silurus... from June 16, 2014...

It appears that this phenomenon (described more accurately in the scientific literature as "lateral line depigmentation") is a result of nutritional deficiency. Maybe your synos are eating something growing in the aged water tank that is lost in switching over to clean water.

(And he was right, it was green algae specifically... as the paper points out this seems to clear the condition.)

In any case, you can read about inducing LLD in channel catfish from the paper (click to download the pdf):

Corrales, J, A Ullal & EJ Noga, 2009. Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque). Journal of Fish Diseases 32: 705–712. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2761.2009.01069.x

Last year when I clicked to DL the paper, I got a notice I had to register... Silurus ended up emailing me the pdf.

So back to the point... green algae (or Vit C) seems to be the key, and unfortunately very few "algae" foods have any algae in them. I learned this at this time, after I looked at the food I was feeding. I switched then to Northfin Kelp Wafers, Northfin Cichlid pellets (because they are made with all good stuff), the Zoo Med Spirulina 20 (highest algae content I could find of any food I researched), and the other usual stuff... frozen brine (enriched with Spirulina), bloodworms, fresh shrimp from the deli, fresh husked peas, etc.

But the fact remains, there is no good ALGAE food I have found, and nothing beats real algae. They do still have short algae on the decorations because it's an aged tank, and I see them grazing on the rocks and stuff, but it's not enough... not like when the nitrates were high. (I know I'm stuck on that, but it was the only time this condition went away.) I'd like to give them Vit C but cannot just dose the tank with it as it's very acidic and will cause pH to drop, and seems like if you inject it in food (like freeze dried shrimp or something) it will just be pulled out by the water before they get any.

But on the other cat (MadJon) it's nearly disappeared completely, and has been that way for months now, ever since I started the new food routine... but this one (CoolJack) just isn't clearing up. (But neither is he ill.) It's a conundrum.

PS Well Birger, you were right. I just read the first line of the abstract in linking the pdf and it says "ABSTRACT Head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) is a chronic dermatopathy affecting a number of fish that presents as depigmented ..." and could not see the rest without opening the article but when you were saying LLE I was thinking hole in the head. So this IS LLE but then I don't know why they call it LLD. IAC I have to read the pdf again to refresh my memory as I could swear it said there were no other symptoms or problems associated with it, in any case. (Even though I still want to clear it.)

[Birger]

Dave Rinaldo has another syno, not a eupterus that has small permanent white marks as well Dave?? It looks to me like permanent damage to the sensory pores along the lateral line.

Birger

[Birger]

Featherfinmama...I am glad you have taken the time to look into this further...it was one of those things that really needed someone to sort out.

Birger

[Birger]

I have to read the pdf again to refresh my memory as I could swear it said there were no other symptoms or problems associated with it, in any case. (Even though I still want to clear it.)

It may be like many other symptoms that begin as one thing but with bad conditions or diet eventually turns into bacteria infections that worsen...or some such scenario.


Birger

[FeatherFinMama]

Featherfinmama...I am glad you have taken the time to look into this further...it was one of those things that really needed someone to sort out.

Birger

Thanks but I screwed it up royally before getting it set straight. So thanks to YOU for getting it straightened out as it was your gentle insistence that it was lateral line erosion that made me take a second look and discover you were exactly right. I can only guess that when I read it initially and saw them classify it as LLD and a "clinical sign more than a disease" that's what stuck in my head.

Meanwhile I feed horrible that I caused this by poor feeding habits. Like I said... until this article came up a year ago (thank you Silurus for actually being the one to shine a light on this subject!) I was buying all the normal kinds of varied fish food people do... feeding them algae wafers among that, assuming there was actual algae in them.

And while switching to Northfin brand was the best thing I ever did for the processed fish food part of the diet, they don't have an algae food specifically (kelp instead) and even though I got Zoo Med Spirulina it is a "blue green plant plankton" and the paper says specifically they need GREEN algae... so while Spirulina is certainly healthy and helpful, it isn't green algae from what I can tell.

[Dave Rinaldo]

Here is a Syno of mine for reference.

These two pics are from 1/'09.

DSC_7451cL.jpg (30.95 KiB) Viewed 8846 times

Same fish 1/'15.

[bekateen]

But the fact remains, there is no good ALGAE food I have found

Would the Repashy Soilent Green be sufficient? The second ingredient (after Spirulina) is "algae meal (Chlorella)":
http://www.store.repashy.com/soilent-gr ... z-bag.html

To be honest, I've not had the privilege of using this product, but I know that Chlorella is actually a type of algae, so this product might be better than what you've used before. By contrast, Spirulina is in fact a type of cyanobacteria (photosynthetic bacteria); it is often described as an alga because it's photosynthetic and it's small like many other algae, but true algae are classified as protists, not bacteria.

Cheers, Eric

[Birger]

This is a good product...he also is a member here, totally approachable, knowledgable and is California based... @Allen Repashy

Also have you been feeding vegies to your Synodontis...I use zuchini and green beans on a regular basis...it is surprising how many fish help themselves that you would not suspect would eat the vegies. For the synodontis it is a supplement...not the main food source.

Birger

[FeatherFinMama]

Here is a Syno of mine for reference.

These two pics are from 1/'09.

Same fish 1/'15

Wow Dave, thanks for those pics. He got a lot better... Do you know why he improved?

[FeatherFinMama]

But the fact remains, there is no good ALGAE food I have found

Would the Repashy Soilent Green be sufficient? The second ingredient (after Spirulina) is "algae meal (Chlorella)":
http://www.store.repashy.com/soilent-gr ... z-bag.html

To be honest, I've not had the privilege of using this product, but I know that Chlorella is actually a type of algae, so this product might be better than what you've used before. By contrast, Spirulina is in fact a type of cyanobacteria (photosynthetic bacteria); it is often described as an alga because it's photosynthetic and it's small like many other algae, but true algae are classified as protists, not bacteria.

Cheers, Eric

Hey Eric thanks so much for that! That's wild, how you prepare it! I never heard of such a thing. I am def ordering some of that today and trying it. Will of course report back down the road on whether or not it helps, but even if it doesn't it sounds like a great food for them, so I'll be happy either way.

[FeatherFinMama]

Re: Soilent Green Repashy

This is a good product...he also is a member here, totally approachable, knowledgable and is California based... @Allen Repashy

That's great to know, Birger. Thanks!

Also have you been feeding vegies to your Synodontis...I use zuchini and green beans on a regular basis...it is surprising how many fish help themselves that you would not suspect would eat the vegies. For the synodontis it is a supplement...not the main food source.

The only greens I give them are green peas which I cook and husk (removed tough skin by squeezing the meat out of the pea on to a plate). I need to buy some zucchini... I am not a big veggie eater myself (though a lifelong vegetarian! Ha! More of a grainatarian or carbotarian) so I usually don't have veggies handy and don't think of the fish when I'm standing in the veggie section of the store (where I buy carrots for my dog) ... but I am going to try that. I give them peas maybe once a week.

I think maybe I haven't been feeding them ENOUGH. Because when I re-read that PDF study on LLD it said the control group of catfishes were fed 0.6% their body weight 3x a day with food that was 40% crude protein, 10% fat an 4% fiber. I have never fed my cats more than once a day AND the food was not HQ until a year ago when all this came up and I became aware of how poor most fish food was in quality. (Except for the frozen part of their diet which has always been good - bloodworms, etc.) But after I read that I started feeding them 3x a day and now I will see if maybe this changes things.

Also I noticed in the PDF it said that feeding high amounts of green algae and Vit C reversed the condition "in three weeks" (now I hesitate to make ANY statement about that PDF but I am almost positive that's what it said)... not months. So if they are getting what they need it should reverse pretty quickly from what that paper says.

[Birger]

and don't think of the fish when I'm standing in the veggie section of the store (where I buy carrots for my dog)

Sometiimes I think my fish eat better then I do...not only the fresh veggies but frozen raw shrimps also come home for them.

Birger

[Birger]

I think maybe I haven't been feeding them ENOUGH. Because when I re-read that PDF study on LLD it said the control group of catfishes were fed 0.6% their body weight 3x a day with food that was 40% crude protein, 10% fat an 4% fiber.

you have to remember this is fish raised for the food industry...they try to get maximum growth in the minimum time....and may have filter systems much bigger or actually a fresh water supply to deal with waste...in the home aquarium this would be considered too many times but if you think of it, feeding small amounts they probably get the most benefit from the food with less waste.

Birger

[Dave Rinaldo]

Wow Dave, thanks for those pics. He got a lot better... Do you know why he improved?

My thought is that the 'markings' haven't changed. Just the size of the fish.

[FeatherFinMama]

and don't think of the fish when I'm standing in the veggie section of the store (where I buy carrots for my dog)

Sometiimes I think my fish eat better then I do...not only the fresh veggies but frozen raw shrimps also come home for them.

Birger

Ha! Same here! Also use to give it to my dog (I make him fresh meals) but he has a food sensitivity to it, so it all goes to the fish now. They really love it.

PS Good point about feeding 3x a day... I forgot they were raising them to eat.

[FeatherFinMama]

Wow Dave, thanks for those pics. He got a lot better... Do you know why he improved?

My thought is that the 'markings' haven't changed. Just the size of the fish.

Huh.... looks like the markings are smaller to me, but you're the one who'd know! Glad it hasn't gotten worse anyway. The first pic is from '09 ... is that when you first noticed it, or just when you finally took a picture?

[FeatherFinMama]

But the fact remains, there is no good ALGAE food I have found

Would the Repashy Soilent Green be sufficient? The second ingredient (after Spirulina) is "algae meal (Chlorella)":
http://www.store.repashy.com/soilent-gr ... z-bag.html

To be honest, I've not had the privilege of using this product, but I know that Chlorella is actually a type of algae, so this product might be better than what you've used before. By contrast, Spirulina is in fact a type of cyanobacteria (photosynthetic bacteria); it is often described as an alga because it's photosynthetic and it's small like many other algae, but true algae are classified as protists, not bacteria.

Cheers, Eric

Eric, you hit the nail on the head with this. I contacted the website because on the link above the first list of ingredients has Spirulina first, then green algae... if you keep scrolling down there is a second list of ingredients that has green algae first, then spirulina... so I emailed asking for the one with the most green algae for LLD. The answer I received was that they have equal amounts of each, so it doesn't matter which ingred is listed first. Then they said, "You won't find a food on the market with more Chlorella than our formulas. Many saltwater keepers have used Soilent Green to completely reverse LLD/Hole in the Head in Yellow Tangs." (I say "they" because although it was signed by Allen under his name was Karen so I don't know which one answered, but here it is Sunday night and we went back and forth a couple times. How's that for customer service!) I am ordering it now...

AND THANK YOU, ERIC (and also Birger for encouraging me to contact them).

I can't wait to see how it goes and will certainly revive this thread (which I imagine will be dead by then) to post the results for continuity for future readers who are looking for an answer to this. ...Unless this forum doesn't like old threads revived and would rather I start a new one?

[bekateen]

FeatherFinMama, I'm glad to learn that this looks so promising.

I can't wait to see how it goes and will certainly revive this thread (which I imagine will be dead by then) to post the results for continuity for future readers who are looking for an answer to this. ...Unless this forum doesn't like old threads revived and would rather I start a new one?

To answer this question, IME it's good to revive the old thread so that the story plays out all in one piece. And as you said, "continuity."

Best of luck, Eric

[Barbie]

I would like to add here that a few years ago I had a yellow tang with HITH and fin erosion that I tried every vitamin supplement on the market on. He was a customer donation and I assumed that since I fed well and did water changes, I could fix him. I was mistaken. I looked at him for months, looking awful, and tried everything people suggested.

When Allen sent me samples of the food, I refused to use them. I am busy, I resist change, and I just didn't have the inclination to try it. When we DID finally try it, a friend of mine wanted to feed it to that tang, to see if he would eat it and stop looking thin. He not only ate it, he obsessed over it, and within a week I realized his fin tissue was growing back. By two, it was complete again. Thin, but you could see where the erosion was, and it had clearly grown back.

I was sold. I've used Repashy ever since. I didn't think it would work, so I quite honestly didn't think to take pictures. I keep waiting for someone to bring me another one so I can try to repeat the regrowth and document it for him.

Barbie

[FeatherFinMama]

That's extremely encouraging Barbie. I am very hopeful and looking forward to it arriving today or tomorrow. Thanks for this input! I am going to try to photograph the other cat that has it only on one side and only traces so I can them document through pictures the progress of both.

[jodilynn]

Where can I get the Repashy foods here in Michigan?

I am interested in the stuff you "paint" on rocks for plecos/otos etc. I'd like to get a few little otos for one of my smaller tanks, however there is NO algae growth in there at all (I've been using it to grow out my Green Dragon Ancistrus and it also has a heavy population of livebearing snails, which are about to become snacks for my loaches in the 55 ).

[FeatherFinMama]

Where can I get the Repashy foods here in Michigan?

The link Eric gave (also below) has a field for entering zip code for local dealers, if any are in your area. I just ordered online, however... am expecting it today and very excited.

http://www.store.repashy.com/soilent-gr ... z-bag.html

I am interested in the stuff you "paint" on rocks for plecos/otos etc.

Can't help you there! Never heard of this.