emerald brochis - scratches gill area

jhd · Post by **jhd** » 12 Dec 2003, 01:56

Hello All,
I am new to this forum, however I have been reading it for a while.
I need your advice.
I have emerald brochis in my 55g tank. Tank was treated for ich with nox ich (malachite green) and with raised temp to 87 F.
Some 2 weeks into treatment (ich kept showing up) one of my emeralds lost buoyancy and was sinking to the bottom like a rock. It was also struggling to swim up to the surface for a bubble of air, wobbling rather than swimming.
I put him into 10 g qt and with EM tablets (erytromecyne?? Antibiotic ) within a week got better to the point that it swims freely and sometimes mid water. (OK me!!)
But I just noticed that it scratches with his gills against some gravel in qt.
What should I nuke the tank with so I do not loose him and get him ready to rejoin the buddies in the big tank? Nox ich did not finish the job since it scratches. No ich visible at all. Fins are not clamped. She breathes heavily, more than other ones, and have been since lost buoyancy time.Breathing never improved.
I can add salt if that helps but how much and for how long.
Help appreciated, since it is the only female (I think) in the group.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 12 Dec 2003, 19:17

But I just noticed that it scratches with his gills against some gravel in qt.

Your water quality looks very good and it will more than likely heal itself.

If you want to treat any general fungus medication would be a good choice.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » 13 Dec 2003, 00:07

Just some info on the malachite green. I would not recommend using this chemical anymore.

Malachite green has been used in cultured troutframs here in Denmark for great many years as a good fungal treatment, but the usage has now seased completely, as it is proven to cause mutations/cancer in the fish at a quite high rate.

Do you also check the waterreadings in your qt? - If it's a new setup more frequent waterchanges are a good idea for a while.
Also when using medications some biproducts of the biological and chemical downbreaking of the medicine can leave some harmfull chemicals in the water.

Using antibiotic medicine will slow down or kill MANY of the good bacteria as well. Antibiotics and frequent waterchanges go hand in hand.

Again some thoughts and ideas from
Allan

fishnut2 · Post by **fishnut2** » 13 Dec 2003, 07:14

DON'T use salt! Cories don't like salt in any amount. I've heard the malachite green doesn't agree with cories very well...but never knew about the cancer part. Keep in mind...you can kill fish by overmedicated them too. Swimming to the surface for air is normal. If they do it frequently...you probaly have some low oxygen issues. Scratching the gills is NOT normal...and could be a problem. Unfortunately, I can't suggest something that will help. Only what you shouldn't do.
Rich

Post by **Coryman** » 13 Dec 2003, 14:16

Sounds very much to me like gill flukes, not a subject that I know that much about.

http://www.forum.planetcatfish.com/viewtopic.php?t=2450

Ian

Allan · Post by **Allan** » 13 Dec 2003, 17:34

Magnum4 pm'ed me following:

Alan not worth mentioning this on forum but many products are based on malachite and it would be difficult to find an off the shelf medication in the UK without it present.
what chemicals do you use yourself?

I thing my answer could be of general interest, so i decided to post it anyway:

I know that malachite green is very common in many of the anti-fungal medicines, and it is troublesome to find out what the different products contains.

I have not used meds for quite some time now, and none since I in a workrelation recently studiet the mutagene effects of Malachite green.

One of the meds i have used earlyer, and maybe will use again if I get fungal problems, is general tonic, from tetra as i remember it. This product is to me clear to contain malachite green, BUT i would not add this product directly to my tanks. I would now take up any diseased fish and bath them briefly (20-30 min for a small fisk) in an extra stong solution, and THEN place them i the qt. This to prevent long term exposure.

Actually, i have allways used this procedure, and it has proven for me to work really well.

In workrelations i keep cultures of stickleback, with these the threatment of fungus is really easy, as your can up the NaCl-content to a whole 3 w/w% with no harm to the fish - fresh water fungus will be inhibitet heavyli allready at 0,2 w/w% in my own experience. And I have lots of expirience here, these fish live in dence populations and get fungus quite often (constant ammount of salt in the tanks not alloved as these fish are regularly removed to a experimental freshwater-setup, and in these scientific procedures we must me very strict.)

In workrelations I have also been partially involved in a big study of the usage of CuSO4 in freshwater troutfarms and itâ??s effect on mostly surrounding environment but also to a minor extend the trout it self. If we disregard the invironment in this context, I will briefly sum up that we found damaging effects on the fish here aswell, most vital effect was found on fry that partially lost the minor gill-ribbons, an effect that proved irreversible. No mutagene effects has been proven though, and from this I cannot say that people should not use products containing copper(II)sulphate. Note that I, in case I had eggs that got fungal infections repeatedly, would also use one of the meds based on Copper (Most blue meds are!).
On this matter I can also mention, that CuSO4 is less toxic in hard water, more toxic in soft. In acidic water CuSO4 seems to get an elevated toxic effect, and use is not recommendable. Dosing CuSO4 is very tricky, as it is hard for us to know how much our sediment and water will bind, and caution using coppersulfate is vital. Concentrations for a positive effect is between 0,01-0,25 mg CuSO4/L, but in some systems 0,25 mg CuSO4/L will kill the fish almost instantly, while in others it cures and leaves no fish damage, so better use low doses for starters.

Here in Denmark troutfarms are now beginning to replace the use of Coppersulfate, copperchloride and other with hydrogenperoxide (H2O2), I am at present trying go get a view of itâ??s use and doseage. This is quite hard to convert from troutfarms that have temps around 4-12 degrees C to our tropic tanks, as this drug is quite temperature sensitive in its toxicity (lower temps = lower dosis). Also substrate, contents of metals and, of highest significance, pH seems to have great influence. Maybe these are the reasons I have not seen H2O2-products in the trade. If You have I am very interested, I might be off track on this

In my private tanks i keep mostly Corydoras, with cories i have NEWER used ANY meds, allthough keeping different species for 11 years now. I have seen problems with my fish, but allways solved problems with better hygiene, frequent waterchanges, lower fish densities and isolation of diseased specimens. Us catfish keepers are so lucky, that catfish have tremendous self-healing abilities compared to many ornamental fish, this beeing one of many reasons to why i love them.

Maybe your question was suitable for the forums

Note to my answer, that I am not biochemicist, but technician

Hope you got the answer you were looking for.

Kr Allan Mathiasen

jhd · Post by **jhd** » 14 Dec 2003, 00:43

Thanks for the responses.
I did not know about such a problem with malachite.
Presently there is no medications in qt, but I will change water (also I can not measure any ammonia nor natrite. I will keep an eye on her for a couple of more days and if there is nothing wrong I will put it back to 55g. Lonely emerald is not very happy there.

I have also another problem (sorry)
I used to have 4 cory julii. One became weak and used to scratch on sand (I have sand in 29g) I moved him to qt and treated with nox ich (malachite, I know now), but it died. Just slowly was weaker and weaker and died. Nothing I could do.
3 other corys julii were ok till today when I saw one just sitting on the bottom and the other scratching against the sand just like the one that died.
I do not mix anything from one tank to another. I have 2 sets of nets and third for qt.
So if not malachite than what can I treat them with. Or not treat at all and just wait? Angels in that tank have no sign of anything. Just cory julii. I can not measure any toxins in the water and in 29 g natrate is 0 to 5.
Coryman, I can not see anything protruding from gill area. Nothing at all. Fish is clear.
Thanks for help.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » 14 Dec 2003, 01:29

How do you run that CO2-bubbling produced with yeast?

I found the pH just a little high, an addition of CO2 should lower the pH i guess.

I have no practical expirience with CO2, and was just puzzled.

In your case with more than one tank, independent of each other, showing signs of ill fish, i would not threat with meds before i know exactly what is wrong. There might be something in your way of caring for the critters that is not optimal.

Saying that, i cannot come up with any clear suggestions on what this could be, seems to me you are quite on your toes concerning your tanks. Maybe you do to many and to big water changes with tapwater? - Water that may contain Chlorine or unusual ammounts of copper or ferion or other, not beeing measured by your kit?

Detailed plan of your maintenance is, i think, needed.

Maybe You could ctc your local water supply and get infos on metallics in the water?

Just some ideas and loose thoughts from late night Denmark

Kr Allan Mathiasen

Mooncaller · Post by **Mooncaller** » 14 Dec 2003, 12:26

Nox-Ich also contains formaldahyde. The store I work for uses it quite a bit. As far as I can tell, it is not kind to biological filtration. I tend to use it at half concentration if there are any catfish in the tank. I also have been insuring that I am turning the water over at least 5 times an hour befor I medicate. Every time, I have noticed a decline in water quality ( usualy a small < 0.25 amonia spike.) I also see minor bacterial blooms. In any case, if the fish are in an appropriate enviroment and have been well cared for befor they got ich, medication does more harm then good. Also note that ich has a life cycle such that it can reapear every three days or so. If you do medicate you should do it for at least four to six days straight then stop. Remember, the white spot is the final stage of the organism. The scratching you see could be ich reaserting itself. In which case the catfishes natural defences should be sufficient. Another cause for the scratching can be gill iritation from the formaldahyde.

There are other parasites that will cause a fish to scratch. I have never know cory to be particularly suceptible to ich. In fact, I have often seen every fish in a tank but the corys come down with ich. This is a bad time of year for fish keepers. In the past, I have noticed a correlation between scratching and resent water changes during the fall. Not all organisms are killed by the standard treatment used for drinking water. When I had noticed a problem, I started to treat the water with formalin then airate for a day or two befor introducing it to the tank. When I had done this the problem went away. Unfortunatly, I have never had the opprotunity to run any sort of controled experiment. So I don't realy know if what I was doing was helping or just making money for the makers of formalyn!

jhd · Post by **jhd** » 14 Dec 2003, 22:38

Hi guys,
thanks for reply
I always use insta-chlor to remove chlorine and chloramine from tap water.
It could be that I overdosed fertilizer. That day I saw them scratching.

For CO2 yeast method read here:
http://www.dye.no/DIY/Do-It-Yourself_Ye ... System.htm
http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aqu ... 6900010101

sciencefish · Post by **sciencefish** » 16 Dec 2003, 06:24

Definitely sounds like gill flukes to me. Try treating with Formalin (formaldehyde). It should solve the problem. Then treat again after 2 to 3 days, because the gill fluke eggs will have hatched in the tank's substrate by then, and you'll probably be done with it after that.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » 16 Dec 2003, 10:30

It could be that I overdosed fertilizer. That day I saw them scratching.

If you have the idea, that this might be just irritation because of to many nutrient-salts in the water, then please don't take any advice on hazardous threatment with Formaldehyde.

For a hobbyist, i think a radikal drug like that is a last way out, and only to be used with a clear diagnosis.

Regards
Allan

Post by **Coryman** » 16 Dec 2003, 12:00

Gill flukes are not always that easy to detect or treat and I am led to beleive that many imported wild fish carry them. The most successful treatment is harsh but it works.

Ian

Allan · Post by **Allan** » 16 Dec 2003, 12:34

I just took a look at the Formaldehyde (HCHO) bottle.

Markings are following:
TOXIC
Danger of serious damage to healt by breathing, skincontact and digestion. Possibility for permanent damage to health.
Use special workingclothing and suitable protective gloves.
At accident or breathing (fumes) immidiate mecical care is needed.

This is my direct translation from Danish.

I once spilled a drop of 10% formaldehyde on my skin, this causes instant coagulation of proteine, same way as when you boil an egg. Skin was to peel of where the drog hit and ran. Imaging pooring this into your tank, having wife and kids passing by once in a while. The fumes don't do any good to their lungs, even though doses are small, a constant odour in the livingroom is best to avoid.

Yes, this is a very effective drug, and are in some cases the only useable threatment.

My point is that substances like this needs to be used with great care, and with people who know what they are dealing with. Also, i find it irresponciple to use such medication, if we don't know the disease of the fish, just adding endless medications till we get it right. We are, still, hobbyists.

Information is the key, hope i gave some useable info here.

jhd · Post by **jhd** » 16 Dec 2003, 13:33

Thanks guys,
This is than what I am going to do,

Yesterday I did not see the scratching any more, which might be too much fertilizer in the first place, but it might not.
If this is due to gill parasites, they are already in the sand and will infect other fish, therefore I will need to nuke the tank, separation now is too late.
So, I will keep an eye on them doing nothing till I am convinced that it spreads,
In which case I will nuke the tank with something with Formaldehyde.
(I have only nox ich, it does not list formaldehyde, just malachite green 1% as active ingredient.)
If there is a drug that you know is available in US or Canada, that is effective for flukes,
Please let me know.

Thanks for all the info.

Mooncaller · Post by **Mooncaller** » 17 Dec 2003, 07:43

Sorry, my mistake. Rid-ich contains malachite green and formaldahyde. Not Nox-ich. Thats what I get for posting late at night after a long day.

S-Cat7 · Post by **S-Cat7** » 19 Dec 2003, 20:03

I think you will find that most aquarium white spot treatments are based on malachite green/formalin mixture (often called LeTeux-Meyer mix in aquaculture) with a stabiliser, others are chelated copper(II). Of these, formalin is the biggest killer of nitrifying bacteria- and everything else.

That is why it is used to preserve tissues.

The aquarium treatments should be sufficiently dilute so as not to kill the fish, and I used to recommend my clients to try stepping up the dosage if the spots did not disappear. But this does have repercussions for the filter. I got good reports on this advice.

I think Coryman is right- if the fish continue to scratch without the signs of w/spot then it could be a case of gill flukes. An OTC treatment in the UK is Sterazin which is based on DTHP or Trichlorfon (sim to Masoten), this works only on the flukes and filters remain intact. In the US there are Fluke Tabs which are safe for fish and filters. Otherwise, the only other choice is formalin, but I would only use this as a last resort.

Hydrogen peroxide is useful and I used to use it when I was a research technician but the dose is very difficult to calculate. You need to know the binding effect of any organics in the tank, and this is related to the redox potential. It is as dangerous as formaldehyde. Not a treatment I would recommend to aquarists.

On a technical point, the eggs of gill flukes do not rest in the substrate. They hatch into free-swimming forms or oncomiracidia very quickly after being deposited on the mucus of the gills and swim off in search of a new host. That is why ozonation of the water will eliminate gill flukes in marine fish.

Try the fluke treatment and let us all know of the outcome.

emerald brochis - scratches gill area

emerald brochis - scratches gill area

My info on medicines