"Corydoras venezuelanus" Black Cory's"

[Jools]

I've added the new species entry and a couple of pics. If you can email or post your scanned pics then I will use them too and hopefully Ian will also use them for a new CW.

Cheers,

Jools

[Shane]

Jools,
The pic under C. venezuelanus by Mona Opland (#3) is sp "Northern Guarico."

The pic by Johnny Jensen marked lateral view (#7) appears to be a juvenile Northern Guarico.

Pic #5 appears to be another sp altogether. Pic #24 has me confused. I think it is N. Guarico but maybe some the colors are washed out by the flash?

-Shane

PS We may have to come up with another moniker as I have records that I collected them in Cojedes State as well. C. Sp Venezuelan Llanos?

[Jools]

Shane,

Good, I think we are getting to the crux of it!

The pic under C. venezuelanus by Mona Opland (#3) is sp "Northern Guarico."

The pic by Johnny Jensen marked lateral view (#7) appears to be a juvenile Northern Guarico.

Pic #5 appears to be another sp altogether. Pic #24 has me confused. I think it is N. Guarico but maybe some the colors are washed out by the flash?

I think these are all commercially raised fish. I've seen some of these which are close to a balloon form. Pic #5 is a young fish, pic #24 is what they look like when unsettled. Anyway, can you expand on why you are IDing these as

Corydoras sp`Northern_Guarico`

? At present, I am going on N. Guarico having a longer roughly triangular blotch on the flank which stretches along the flank to below the adipose fin (versus roundish blotch, not reaching adipose). I am guessing you are going on reddish fin colour (versus translucent). It is very much worth getting to the bottom of this if we go with your view, all the fish in the hobby (at least in Europe) that we call C. venezuelanus will become N. Guarico (and belong to the potential new CW-number) and

Corydoras venezuelanus

will be restricted to the Tuy fish. As an aside, do you have this (reddish fins, roundish spot) fish in the US?

We may have to come up with another moniker as I have records that I collected them in Cojedes State as well. C. Sp Venezuelan Llanos?

When I first sent the pictures to Ian, and to avoid confusion with C. schultzei/using the word black, I labelled them C. sp. llanos. However, I think we need to be certain about the points above before we worry about that.

Jools

[Shane]

Well on the positive side I now have a scanner and have sorted about a 1000 slides and 35 mm negatives that I had not looked at in a decade.

The bad news is that I cannot find a single pic of the llanos cory that is any better than what is above. Looking at the habitat shots I took in Guarico and Cojedes it appears that nearly all my trips to these locations were undertaken solo. Solo collecting is not conducive to photography unfortunately.

I think our best bet may be to contact Don Kinyon in hopes he has photos.

In terms of pattern note that the black shoulder spot on the llanos cory is not only a more elongated triangle but it actually touches the dorsal fin base making a "saddle." The black spot on the face is also darker so the, when viewed head on, the fish looks to be all black.


-Shane

[Coryman]

Shane, Jools,

To pin another CW number on yet another "aeneus" type I have to be 100% certain that all the evidence is accurate especially when the the division is with fish from what is globally the same region. There are a number of 'aeneus' types already listed in my 'aeneus' group page on Corydorasworld, these are not coded as yet either, because of the lack of precise location details.

There are some C & CW numbered fish listed without accurate known locations, but with these the colour pattern are quite unique and therefore acceptable. It is the similar looking species where I have to be more precise. It would be to easy to just add numbers for slight variables in pattern or shape.

I pave a proposal along with 3 pints of beer, that we have a meet at the CatCon and see if we can nail this one down. I have e-mailed Don and he is checking for images and what info he has. I think I need to add another pint and Don to the discussion.

Ian

[Shane]

Sounds like a plan Ian
-Shane

[rcbows]

WOW! this post I started has really taken off! I am sorry I didn't get to reply to this thread for a few days, I have been in the VA Hospital with a mild heart attack! One of the (4) stints I had put in April failed and I had to have it fixed by adding another, now I have (6)!

Anyways I will try to get some pictures up of the American strain fish, I have! Then I will hopefully let you experts decide what species they are! There is a lot of info here and it can be confusing, so I hope when all is said and done we can simplify the names of these fish so everyone will know what to call them.

I have a friend at one of the local clubs that says he just received some from Sweden, that he bought at an American auction. He said "When he bid on them he never new that they were from Europe", but when he finally got them they were in great shape. Packed in breather bags and shipped in good condition. I will try to find out the name of the person who sent them from Sweden, and what species they claim to be. That way we can get some more info on them from him!

Ron

[Shane]

Glad you are ok Ron.
-Shane

[rcbows]

Thanks Shane, I am recouping at the present time and trying to not overdue it. Its hard when you have over 100 tanks to take care of and feed every day.

Ron

[rcbows]

Here are my current pictures of the American strain of Black Cory's, that I promised to take!






Sorry about the quality, but its the best I can do right now!

Ron

[Mountain]

They seem to have relatives here in Germany!

[rcbows]

Shane! has Ian decided on a name for the Black Cory's as Yet. I am still confused as to what to call them!

Ron

[Juiceyfish]

I have 4 of these black cories and I recieved them labeled as C. schultzei.... It would be great to get more Info on these guys since it's obvious that there isn't a lot of knowledge !! Here's a couple pics of a couple of mine ! Need a better camera though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lilfishy]

This is one of mine in the Uk

[Mountain]

I have 4 of these black cories and I recieved them labeled as C. schultzei.... It would be great to get more Info on these guys since it's obvious that there isn't a lot of knowledge !!

I was astonished about the different ID for these Corydoras and then I learned, that all depends on the scientist you'd like to follow.
If you follow (Ichthyologe) Isbrücker then you have Corydoras schultzei black;
If you follow (Ichthyologe) Britto then you have Corydoras aeneus black.
But - As far as I understand: They are the same species!
On the other hand: There truely is a species named Corydoras venezuelanus, which I keep here in a tank.
And gossip says, that there has been a breeding of blacks from this species (some twenty years ago in Germany or Checoslowakia), which seemed to have disappeared over the years.
But nevertheless, some fish-dealers here in Germany announce their black Corydoras as Corydoras venezuelanus black, just to get more money for them, or simply because they don't know enough about Corydoras & Co.

[Shane]

Ron,
I have no doubt that the Cory from the Venezuelan llanos is a distinct sp from Corydoras venezuelanus and is deserving of a CW number until it is described. Unfortunately I do not have enough proof to demonstrate that belief in a clear way. Someday things will change in Venezuela and maybe I can go back and collect more information.
-Shane

[Jools]

All the pictures of C. schultzei BLACK in this thread are the reason why we need to have C. venezuelanus and C. sp. llanos BLACK (CWxxx) in the cat-elog. This is because people will look at what is here and if the alternatives are not described and represented then incorrect IDs will result.

Jools

[Jools]

I have updated the cat-elog with all this useful information. I think it's pretty good, but would not be adverse to commentary especially from those who have the full backstory and those who have zero backstory. For ease of review:

Corydoras schultzei

Corydoras venezuelanus

Corydoras sp`LLANOS`

Jools

[Mountain]

Hm.....my Corydoras venezuelanus look different.

[Shane]

I think that is a good arrangement for now Jools.

Klaus, your fish look like venezuelanus to me.

-Shane

[Dave Rinaldo]

Hm.....my Corydoras venezuelanus look different.

cory_venezuelanus_2.jpg

Click on link,

Corydoras venezuelanus

, and look at the other pics, taking note of #3 and #7.

[Mountain]

Click on link,

Corydoras venezuelanus

, and look at the other pics, taking note of #3 and #7.

Okay.

[rcbows]

I am still confused! What name do I call my fish, so I am accurate!

Ron

[Coryman]

There is one feature that I pointed out earlier in the thread, which is that the fish we are calling C. venezuelanus and the LLanos fish both have grey caudal fins and the C. schultzii and its black strain have reddish caudal fins.
I think a chat over a couple of beers at the (AACC) Cat Con should straighten out this problem once and for all. I have not added anything more to the relevant pages on Corydorasworld as at the moment the site is being prepared for moving to a new server and what ever work is don befor the move will need doing again. Hopefully all will be moved soon.
Ian

[Jools]

I am still confused! What name do I call my fish, so I am accurate!

They are the black form of

Corydoras schultzei

.

Jools

[rcbows]

OK Thanks Jools, sorry I just saw your reply.

Ron