L236 debate

[craig09]

Hi guys im after some information on the ever supposed first wild L236, also why was it given the catch location of the rio irri but when scientist searched that area no hypancistrus were ever found.

[leisure_man]

___

[craig09]

????

[TwoTankAmin]

If you search these forums a bit you will find this topic has probably been discussed to death.

Mislocation is a common tactic employed by the collectors to keep their spots secret.

There has yet to be any conclusive evidence that some of the so called rarer and harder to find b&w Hypancisrus are really distinct species rather than natural hybrids or one ofs. Perhaps the most important factor that makes one have to lean towards this explanation is the inability to collect these fish in decent numbers from any single place. You can catch a lot of the described species when they are collected, but the more debated ones such as 236 you cannot.

If this fish is actually a real species that simply has been hard to catch, it is still likely somewhere in the Rio Xingu. The odds that many of the fish living in the big bend, or just above or below it, will be there much longer is not great due to the Belo Monte Dam project.

[Shane]

Just a small point. I have never seen collectors give out misinformation about collecting locales. They just are not tied in to the financial aspects of the trade to see why this would matter.
Misinformation of this type happens higher in the chain among exporters and even importers that want to obfuscate things to ensure only they can offer the "product."
-Shane

[Jools]

I know of three examples of locale obfuscation that I have had personal involvement with but only one of them was in South America / regarding a catfish (

Hypoptopoma sp`peru_white`

). And that was a collector who had internet access and so knew the end value. So I very much agree with Shane's comment of not confusing the collector (or perhaps it is better to say the fisherman) with the guy he sells the fish to and every other transaction between that point and it swimming in a home aquarium.

Furthermore, an l-number needs a location, certainly by the time we'd past 200, having a location in the publication was more or less mandated. One wonders where in that chain from fisherman to magazine the Rio Iriri was mentioned for the first time.

Jools

[TwoTankAmin]

Well I have a problem with all this altruism assigned to the fishermen. I do not have first hand knowledge of collecting, so I could be totally wrong here, but let me explain what I think. Since I do keep zebras, I have more knowledge about them and they are ideal for an example. So, let us consider them in the wild and collectors.

Because of this fish not being allowed for export, there is no reason to collect them except for the money. So out go the the fishermen, often risking their lives as well as being arrested to dive for them. I am pretty sure that most of them are not going to say where they get them as this is a real good way to get caught the next time for one. Poor doesn't mean stupid. And then I think back to the thread on this site about the Belo Monte dam.

There were two maps in this thread, one with out the dam and one with it overlayed. And one, or both, maps showed known collection points for zebras. In the entire big bend 4 or maybe 5 dots were placed. Somehow I think zebras might be found and collected in a lot more places.

The point is there is a very good reason not to reveal where the "illegal" zebras were collected. The same applies to any fish not on the approved list.

Next, consider altum angels which are pretty much gotten wild or not at all. There are populations which are specific to specific rivers. Many of these rivers may meet downstream. So it is possible to collect the fish early on in the specific river but it is often easier to wait for those that do to come down stream and collect from places they are mixed but also easier to catch. This would not matter much except for Heiko who, a number of years back, wrote that the biggest/nicest altums he felt were in the Rio Atabapo bordering Colombia and Venezuela.

Whether this is actually the case has not been verified as far as I know but it has made such fish more desirable to many. if for no other reason to see when grown and compared to others if they are different or not. For years the Colombian side of the river was under the control of the FARC rebels and the Venezuelan side the Chavez regime. There were to many ways to be shot so that the river was rarely collected. But in the past few years things changed. While collecting is banned by one country in one month and the other in another month, it is now possible to get the fish. But it is almost impossible to tell from what river a small altum angel may have come. So it is very easy to claim whatever the collectors (or those up the chain) might say. Why go all the way to the Atabapo when you can just label what you can get nearer as being from there?

As an altum person I have been involved with trying to get Atabapos with the similar reasonable doubt as I tried to get a potential 236. I tried to find a source that would likely be reliable. In the case of plecos the issue was to get some just in case the fish actually was a yet-to-be-described species. If it isn't, it sure has been a fun trip. The fish I have look nice and they are spawning. The worst I did was waste some money on some pretty "natural" hybrids.

When the demand is for fish from a specific river, the way for the people up the ladder actually to get fish from that river is to tell their collectors that is specifically what is wanted. And the fishermen may be poor, but they are not stupid. Fish from that place must be worth more than similar ones from elsewhere or why am I being told to go there specifically. This another reason for a collector to lie about where they caught something.

I also think there is a big difference between a fisherman lying about the river in which he collected something and lying about where in a river he did so. If you have ever fished for sport, you probably know there are spots where you can fish until you die and never catch a thing and others where they are biting all day. Sport fishermen guard the location of such spots pretty closely. Why would the same motivation not apply to those who catch fish for their living? A good collecting spot can not be owned or guarded against other collectors, only its location can be kept secret. So for many fishermen I am sure they see their spots as an assets to guard closely.

I understand human nature better than I do the rest of this discussion. I do not think there is anything special about the people around the world who collect fish for the aquarium hobby. While some may be willing to give accurate information about where they caught something, I am certain some, and possibly many, are not so inclined.

Finally, it is not worth much, but I seem to recall a while back the information on this site for zebra plecs stated they were collected a few miles upriver from Altamira. It was since corrected. Or am I remembering wrong? (I have reached the stage in life where I now qualify to have OBS.)

[Shane]

It is not altruism. The average fish collector in either South America or Africa has no real understanding of the global trade in aquarium fishes and would be incredulous to learn that you paid $20 for an Ancistrus he sold for a penny or that you even cared exactly which river the fish came from. I state this based on over 12 years living and collecting fishes in South America and Africa and going out of my way to meet and speak with tropical fish collectors whenever I could.

Your tropical fish collector most likely lives in a simple hut that he built himself with materials from the surrounding jungle. He has no internet access, no books, and it would not mater if he did as he most likely was never taught to read. He has a canoe that he made out of a tree he felled and moves it via a paddle he carved himself. If he is lucky and his extended family and tribe members have done well they might have one or two canoes with motors to share between a dozen or more households. He, his wife and kids, cousins, brothers, and other relatives collect fish and hold them until the local fish buyer comes through out of Iquitos or Leticia or Manaus and either buys his fish for cash or trades for his fish with fishing hooks, disposable lighters, kerosene, a bottle of aquardiente (liquor) or other goods he otherwise has no access to. If he is not so lucky several members of his family/tribe will have to paddle the fish they collect several hours to a town where they can trade them for items they need.

Who would he hide his collecting spots from? Everyone that lives within miles of him is either a relative or member of his tribe that also collects fish to trade for cash or manufactured goods that benefit the community. He only gets a dollar or two for a 1,000 Corydoras or tetras and maybe as much as a penny for Ancistrus. However, since these fish are too small to eat and very easy to catch in large numbers it is still worth his time to collect and sale or trade them. When the crazy foreigner shows up and asks him to demonstrate where and how he collects the fish he is happy to do so because they have no inherent value. They are as free and as easy to collect as leaves on the forest floor.

Using Colombia as an example... The guy that buys the collector's fish for shipment out of Leticia might obfuscate where he specifically he bought them from collectors as he does not want anyone else in Leticia moving in on his business. More likely is that he does not pass this info on because he has no idea anyone wants it. The exporter in Bogota might do the same for the same reasons, but it is more likely that the people in Bogota know nothing more detailed than the shipment came from "Leticia." They also may not be hiding anything, they just never had reason to ask the guy in Leticia what river he bought the fish on. By the time these fish hit the big Miami trans-shippers they are all just from "Colombia." From there they likely go to a wholesaler and get even more mixed up before they arrive at your LFS.

You ask your LFS where they come from and they call the wholesaler who says "Colombia." You push even further and get the wholesaler to call the trans-shipper in Miami. His answer... "Colombia" and then the aggravated hobbyist posts online about how collectors are greedy people hiding information from them.

Go on down to San Fernando de Atabapo and ask the guys where they catch altums. I am sure they would be flattered you were interested and take you out to collect some.

-Shane

[racoll]

TwoTankAmin, I think you are overthinking this a bit. From my limited experiences with collectors in Brazil, I can only reiterate pretty much exactly what Shane experienced, with a couple of additions.

On the Rio Negro, we met guys selling cardinals and were exactly as Shane described. Basically subsistence fishermen, who supplement their income during the collecting season. We actually swapped bags of fish for fuel.

Now, on the Tapajós they were more organised than this. The guys lived in the town and seemed fairly typical of the people living there. They had typical houses and their own motor boats. They were very straightforward people. They did not use L numbers; fishes were known by the local names. They know how much they get for each species, and they go out to collect as many as possible in the shortest possible time. They didn't mess around looking for new species, catching "interesting" things that might not sell, things that might die, or things they weren't allowed to collect. They go out, fill the boxes, and get back to the wife/beer as quickly as possible. They have smartphones and internet, but don't really take any interest in the global trade. I told them how much some of the plecos they caught were worth in Europe, and they just laughed. I wasn't sure whether it was because they didn't believe me, or because they thought it was hilarious that someone would pay that much. I wanted to collect the zombie pleco, and they said they don't often collect them because they have very little value. I recently saw them for something like £250 each in the UK. Go figure. Information has trouble flowing both ways it seems.

Now, some of the discus fishermen I met had a much tighter operation. The boat was immaculate, and I think they were pretty well off indeed. He took us to places where he collects special discus, worth a lot in Japan.

What you also need to remember is that the fishermen tend to know each other. They know who collects in different places, and I don't think they just go and muscle in on another guy's patch. They are more likely to go out together and share meals and collect at several different sites.

When we visited the middleman, he was much more aware of the trade. He knew the L numbers, and where things came from. He promised all kinds of crazy stuff, some of which transpired, some of which did not. Some of the fishes he supplied he did not even know where they came from exactly, so he guessed when pushed. I have a feeling that this probably happens a lot, and therefore maybe a part of the "disinformation".

[jac]

Shane, your story gives a reality check and gets me in the heart... How we have evolved in people that are so greedy and mistrustful in everything and every one. Life but mostly money has done this to us I think. You and some others here must be so enriched to know and seen that there is simple and honest live still out there.. At that time you must feel so relaxed, escaping from the hectic world you might live in at home.
I'm not adding anything to this tread but just felt the need to say so.