Help with Corys dying

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 04 Jan 2014, 15:15

We have a now fully cycled 22L (5.8 US gall) that housed one male betta and four false bandit corys (grow up to 1.8"). It is planted, and contains snails.
It is a Aqua One AquaNano 30, so is quite small, and has quite a large filter system that takes up a portion of the entire back of the tank. The filtration looks quite effective due to its size. Substrate is a small gravel (http://www.petsathome.com/shop/natural- ... home-25800), which doesn't look overly sharp. All corys when well actively search for food and explore the gravel. They are fed on hikari sinking pellets for catfish, bloodworm and other foods for corys.

Water check shows that ammonia is 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates up to 20ppm. pH was fine with original check. Water changes once or twice a week at 20% - 25%. Temperature at 24C. There's been an airstone on all the time since the first took ill. Water is checked frequently. We have not vacuumed the gravel, but will start to do so.

Originally we had just the betta, and added in the four corys at the same time. Causing a mini-cycle. Within a month the first cory had died. After which, the water check shows cycle had completed and is normal. Though now a second cory has died about a month later than the first.

All four seemed well when we got them, though we are both new to corys. I don't know if they both died of the same thing, and if they'd have been affected by the mini-cycle.

Symptoms have included: Flicking against the gravel/objects (though hasn't happened much). Flicking/twitching fins. Going from normal colour to paler (though not sure of the ill ones original colours). Not eating well. Sitting more on the bottom. Clamped fins. Increased breathing. As condition progresses, swim bladder issues, including rolling over, barrel rolling. Then death. Process from looking a bit not right to dying is about a week.

On the second ill fish I noticed one 1mm+ white spot on end of the anal fin, which went away after a few days.

I've thought about what could be causing it. Ich, maybe? Stress through small tank, maybe? Stress through smaller numbers of 4, 3 and now 2 corys. Mini-cycle when they first were introduced. Weak stock from fish shop. Really not sure... the betta has not been as happy since adding the other fish, though seems to be fine at the moment, and stopped it's aggressive flaring (not at the corys), or biting it's fins.

We're worried that the other two corys might go the same way, though they look healthy at the moment. Their breathing is quite fast, but I believe that's normal for corys?

Thinking if might be ich, but being really not sure, the tank has been started on 1 teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon of water, and water is raised a little to 26C. The plants and snails have not been removed prior to treatment. I've read arguments for and against salt with corys, but gone for it.

Any other advice? Ideally I'd like a larger tank for the fish and to increase the corys to 4 or more again, but we might not able to do so.

wax32 · Post by **wax32** » 04 Jan 2014, 17:39

Sounds like stress from poor water quality. I'd do a couple of two gallon water changes, two days apart. Make sure you are removing chloramines with something like Amquel or Prime. Make sure your water temp is in line.

iomega · Post by **iomega** » 13 Jan 2014, 17:41

First,please forgive my poor english. I hope you can understand what I mean.

I think your corys had been poisoned. The corys is a very timid fish, they will poison each other through pectoral fin due to overprotective.
Reason for overprotective: maybe Narrow space;Transportation too bumpy;Poor water quality,etc.

Symptoms: Fast; Color pale; Sitting more on the bottom;Clamped fins;Increased breathing;Often happen rapidly swim to the water surface.....
The whole process will last a long time, but eventually it will die. They are incurable,because corys usually allergic to drugs.

You can only enhance change water,found sick fish timely and throw away, so as not to infect other fish. Good luck.

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 14 Jan 2014, 17:52

Don't think that's the problem. I do have exactly the same problems with my Corydoras Habrosus in my 54 litre tank. Exact the same problems. think it has something to do with overfeeding in combination with a relatively small amount of water. No ammonia or nitrite to be found, but all my habrosus are dying. Decided not to get new ones.

Valb68 · Post by **Valb68** » 15 Jan 2014, 05:52

It sounds like parasites to me

dw1305 · Post by **dw1305** » 15 Jan 2014, 12:32

Hi all,
I'm with "Wax32", this is almost certainly a water quality issue, and I think you answered your own question, it is really too small a tank for these fish.

Others will disagree, but I'm not a great fan of test kits either. Have a look at this post for an alternative method of water "testing" <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... weed+index>

Again and purely personally I don't like salt or gravel either. Have a look at "Sand or Gravel" <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 3&p=225167> & for "Salt" <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =2&t=35797>.

cheers Darrel

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 18 Jul 2014, 11:25

Thanks for the update. I think water quality was an issue, especially it being a small tank.

We have two corys left, but still a problem:

ph 6.0 (or less)
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 15 ppm

One of the corys has a buoyancy issue. He rest on the bottom, almost fine most the time, but has a tendency to for him to float up at the front and to the left - sometimes enough that he will flip over. This has been going on for some time.

He sometimes wedges himself under a plant to stop this happening.

He looks well in colour, body and fins, though he might be breathing a little more rapidly and I'm not sure if there is reddening on one of his gills.

We've had a numbers of corys deteriorate in the past and die - fungus was an issue there.

Is this likely to be swim bladder issue? There's no obvious outwardly signs of infection, so I'm a bit lost.

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 18 Jul 2014, 23:51

ph 6.0 (or less)

By looking at this my guess is the following:

Your water is very soft and the KH is dropping because of the tank losing buffering capacity measured in KH(carbonate hardness). I would get a Kh test kit. If you have a Kh of 0-1, then that's the problem. It needs never go below 1-2 and 4 is better. Kh/buffering capacity is used in nitrification, and a lot of other processes going on, so when one starts with soft water which normally has low Kh, then once it's used up naturally in the tank, it zeroes out and in turn drops the Ph. Fish need a stable Ph. And not many can live in a Ph dropping below 6(because I'd presume most tests don't show how much below 6 it is)

This is very stressful to fish and corys get affected by it, talking from experience. However, mine was caused by overfeeding in a fry tank, more food/more nitrification/the more the Kh drops and water changes are not enough to replenish it, then you get a Ph crash/osmotic shock.

One easy way to counteract this if the water is soft is to add a bit of crushed coral in the filter which will naturally provide some buffering capacity additionally.

It maybe too late to save the corys though because once they lose balance, they are gonners but fixing your water will prevent future problems.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 19 Jul 2014, 09:17

Is a pH of about 6.5 - 7 good for betta and corys?

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 19 Jul 2014, 09:58

Yes, that range is good but any stable ph is better than a fluctuating one. Just don't use ph up and ph down products to achieve this as it will do even more harm. You need enough Kh so the ph is buffered at all times and doesn't fluctuate.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 19 Jul 2014, 17:15

I've ordered a new test kit, as my API master kit is very out of date. However, the test kit says my tap water pH is 7.5, and the tank is coming up at 6, or under what the chart reads.

I'll need to raise the pH levels but is it best to raise them slowly or more quickly with regard to the ill fish?

I'll do a good sized water change, and see if the pH improves.

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 19 Jul 2014, 17:39

It's best to raise it slowly, or if you are doing a large water change, take your time filling up the tank, just like acclimating fish to new conditions. The chances are your Kh is low enough and can't hold the ph between water changes so it might drop again.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 19 Jul 2014, 17:42

I've ordered a KH GH test too. What's the best way to help improve things other than water changes? Is sodium bicarbonate okay to use until I can get some crushed coral..?

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 19 Jul 2014, 18:03

My choice would be crushed coral in the filter long term, but bicarb can work for now, however you need to be careful as it may not keep the kh stable and can change the stats too suddenly for the fish to handle.

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 19 Jul 2014, 18:06

Did the water change raise the Ph some?

Also, make sure there's no detritus, the filter is clean, etc.. as these things contribute to the dropping kh and ph. Depending what your tap water stats come out as, it could be manageable just with water changes, or water changes more often/big enough.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 19 Jul 2014, 20:57

after a good sized water change, it's at pH 6.5.

I'll keep at eye on it and see how things go. Should be upgrading to a bigger tank within a month.

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 19 Jul 2014, 21:08

That's good. I'd keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrites now because the filter bacteria is not active at ph below 6 although ammonia is not toxic at that level too but now with the raising ph you'll get lots of ammonia converted to nitrites and not so much nitrite to nitrate conversion, so possibly a spike to happen, possibly not depending on how mature the tank is. I'd do a water change every other day just in case.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 19 Jul 2014, 22:17

Thanks very much for your help. I'll keep you posted

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 19 Jul 2014, 22:19

No problem. Good luck.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 20 Jul 2014, 13:34

So today he's pretty much the same. Has been spending a bit more time on his side or upside down, and I think he's off his food. Still, when he rights himself and swims about he looks almost fine, with signs of illness (no clamped fins, or loss of colour) except his slightly faster breathing. Actually yesterday evening he was much more balanced than he had been for some time.

Today
Temp 26C
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10ppm
pH 6.4

Thinking about it I don't think the pH has been consistently low over a long time, as water changes have been regular. I'm going to drop the temperature to 24C as I've been reading 26C is on the high side for for them.

We've had a number of previous corys die - usually with loss of colour/clamped fins, a few times fungus, then they were gone within a day or so. This one has been the same for a week.

I've tried salt and Pimafix - both I know have their downsides. The only thing left to try that I have available is Interpet Anti-Internal Bacteria, which I know isn't a miracle cure. I'd need to dose the tank though, as I don't have a hospital tank free. It would be a last ditch attempt, but I'd also be worried on how the product could affect the betta or the other cory?

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 21 Jul 2014, 09:48

The low ph or the ph number in itself is not a problem. The problem is a fluctuating ph which happens when the carbonate hardness is down to non-existent. Such conditions weaken the immune system of fish and if they don't die as a direct result, they tend to be sickly and die from other issues.

I'd turn down the temperature too although not sure if that's good for your betta but at least on temporary basis.

I'd personally leave it alone in regards to meds as its a pure guess whether it has a disease or not and treating such a small tank can swing the balance in the wrong direction. I'd concentrate on improving the living conditions. In regards to losing balance, that's just how corys die and they hang on to life for a long time. I hope your little one improves though.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 22 Jul 2014, 16:40

The temperature is at 25C. Some reason even my cold water tank is at 25C - must be the lights and hot weather.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll have a tester kit for gh and kh too.

He's still the same. He doesn't seem to be dying like I've seen other cory's. He's still go strength to swim about, and still has colour and no clamped fins. Half the time (when he's the right way around), or when he's swimming about he almost looks like nothing is wrong with him.

I'm wondering if it's swim bladder disease. I've offered shelled and squashed peas, but they're not interested. I've stopped feeding the sinking wafers just now and I'm giving more dried blood worn (soaked first). I've no idea if he's eating properly, but he does go about exploring the gravel at times. Doesn't look bloated, and I can't tell if he's still 'going to the toilet'.

Any thoughts on the best was to treat a swim bladder disease? I know it can be caused by various things, but a common cause is constipation. I've heard to stop feeding, and I've heard to feed just peas.

It's frustrating, as every time I think, right, I'll put him out his misery, 5 mins later he's the right way up looking fine. It's not like he is stuck at the bottom or at the top, and he's able to swim up to the top when he wants.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 22 Jul 2014, 22:19

Here he is with his problem...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS_-egxjA_A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI6jxKgufaY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdvyGMKy00k

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 23 Jul 2014, 21:23

You'll find little help when there's a sickness with fish. Most people shoot in the dark when it comes to treating. All I would do for a start is making sure the water in that water in the container is changed regularly and clean of toxic ammonia/nitrites and has enough oxygen via an air pump or such. Add some sand and a few plants to make it feel comfy.
If you think you are gonna lose him, try meds but take your time picking what meds and what dosage as you can kill fish faster with inappropriate meds than anything else, especially when they are weak and they are corys that can't tolerate any meds. Some antibiotic that treats internal infections would be best.
That behaviour could be because his nervous system is affected, could be internal bacteria and such. His/her colour looks good and not pale yet so maybe still a chance. I'd try meds at this stage but make sure his water is stable even if you have to redose the meds.
It's a tough choice. I wish I could help better than this.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 24 Jul 2014, 01:21

He's now in a hospital tank (5" deep - home made sponge air filter, heater) and on an anti-bacteria medication Interpet swim bladder. Also a bit of salt too, but not much due to him being a cory cat.

Yesterday he was very much upside down, this evening in the new tank he is much more the right way up. If the treatments work i think he's got a chance. Still good colour and energy. Feeding with peas now, and blood worm if he wont take peas. Trying to cover all angles here

If he does well, as he's going to be in there for 12 days approx (full treatment) I'll see about getting him some sand and a little something for him to call home

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 24 Jul 2014, 10:57

That's great. Fingers crossed for him.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 24 Jul 2014, 12:14

Water parameters in the hospital tank are:

(Although I'll monitor them, as it's a newly set up tank with some existing filter media and aquarium water)
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrites - 0ppm
Nitrates - 5 to 10 ppm
pH 7.0 (it's gone up from pH 6.0 last week through water changes, including when setting up the hospital tank)
GH - 3 or 4 odKH / 60.0GH approx.
KH - 3 odKH / 53.7KH
(first time testing for GH and KH so still getting used to them).

Are the GH and KH levels okay? The GH and KH levels (and the rest) is similar in the main tank too.

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 24 Jul 2014, 13:43

The levels are ok. Regular water changes can replace the exhausted ones to keep the stats stable. Just see how often and how much water changes works well for your particular setup.

sonicboom81 · Post by **sonicboom81** » 24 Jul 2014, 15:17

Thanks. I'll see how he does. A few on another forum are telling me they'd euthanise him. I'm going to see how he does a bit longer before taking that step.

Corycory · Post by **Corycory** » 24 Jul 2014, 21:21

I hope the cory pulls through. You've started treating so I wouldn't just scoop him out and kill him without giving him a chance at least 3-4 days to see if the meds would work. But that's me.
Does he eat when you feed him?

Help with Corys dying

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