L369 didn't travel well

[jvision]

On Friday I received a shipment that had a few different species of plecos, and the L369 was one of the fish I picked up. The order had 6, and they went into a 20gal (long) on their own. One died in the pail when being aclimated, and the rest came down with ich. I started treatment with increased temp and some salt. I have since lost 2 more.

One is still absolutely covered in cysts, the other two (the biggest - one is definitely a male) seem to be getting better. Today I did a 30% WC and added some more salt (trying to maintain about 1tbsp/5gal). I'll continue this routine for another 2 weeks, and hopefully these 3 make it.

There isn't much about these guys in the Cat-eLog, so I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions. I'm planning on keeping them in this tank in conditions exactly the same as my other Ancistrus (WC from Uraguay and L114), which is moderately hard and pH around 7.5, temp at about 78F - does that sound like a good idea?

[apistomaster]

I have examined skin smears under my microscope of newly imported Plecos covered like wall to wall Ich.
I identified the organisms and found they were Chilodonella.
I use salt but in combination with malachite green.
It is difficult to cure and not all fish can be saved but the malachite green will help a lot. It can take some weeks to clear this up unlike Ich.

[racoll]

I agreement with Larry, I tend to notice that plecos are usually a lot more likely to infected with velvet (Oodinium) than whitespot, so it pays to double check your diagnoses.

[apistomaster]

I don't think I have seen a Pleco with Ich and I know I have never seen any with Velvet but the Chilodonella does not show up easily until the infestation is in a very advanced stage where is seems that the lumps have begun to merge with each other It takes the same medications to treat but the time to clear it up is longer than either Ich and Velvet.

[jvision]

I've lost 2 more.

The spots do look smaller than typical ich, and look a bit more yellow, so maybe more like velvet.

I've used Melafix to treat parasites on other fish and to treat wounded BNs from a fight - would it hurt in this situation? I likely can't get any MG until tomorrow.

[racoll]

I don't think I have seen a Pleco with Ich and I know I have never seen any with Velvet but the Chilodonella does not show up easily

Am I right in saying Larry, that Chilodonella symptoms are a general slimy grey film?

Another similar ailment to watch out for is Vorticella, which seems to be common in

Pseudacanthicus

and

Leporacanthicus

.

Wels Atlas I (Evers & Seidel, 2005) has a lengthy section on loricariid diseases, and gives detailed descriptions on how to treat them. But without knowing what your

Ancistrus

are suffering from, it's hard to recommend a specific treatment.

However, treatment for ich and velvet are much the same: place fish in bare hospital tank with heavy aeration, raise temp to 33C, block out light, dose 0.04 mg/l malachite green oxalate, maintain for three days, monitor for one week. Copper sulfate is probably more effective for velvet, but catfishes may be sensitive to this.

[apistomaster]

By the time Plecos are dying they have a lumpy coating as if there were variable thicknesses of massive amounts of the parasites. I can't really say it has a particular color because it is translucent enough to just seem to be a dull version of the underlying true colors.
I hate to try to help diagnose fish skin parasitic fish diseases without seeing the actual organisms under the microscope.
But the basic treatment is the same and the time it takes to cure those that can be saved varies with the disease. Ich and Velvet respond much faster to treatment than the other possibilities.

[smitty]

I had a blue panaque that had a bad case of ich and I got the temp up to 88-89 degrees and he came thru okay. It is really important to get that temp up to get rid of ich.

[apistomaster]

I had a blue panaque that had a bad case of ich and I got the temp up to 88-89 degrees and he came thru okay. It is really important to get that temp up to get rid of ich.

Hi Smitty,
Plecos hardly ever get Ich or Velvet but raising the temp, adding salt during treatemnt and using malachite green is effective on all the treatable skin parasits. It's just that sever cases of Chilodonella take longer to clean up than other skin parasites which are of the Protistan parasites. It doesn't show up until it is in quite an advanced stage; that is much of the reason why it takes so long to treat. It also attacks their gills so it is important to use good aeration in conjunction with the treatment.

[racoll]

Plecos hardly ever get Ich or Velvet

I hate to try to help diagnose fish skin parasitic fish diseases without seeing the actual organisms under the microscope.

Indeed, conclusions are difficult to make without getting a proper diagnosis, but I'm not sure I understand your first statement.

Especially in crappy stores, I have seen countless plecos coated with a yellowish film of dots/blobs of varying sizes. Are you saying this isn't velvet, or that you just don't see any plecos with this condition?

If you have the Wels Atlas I (Evers & Seidel, 2005), turn to page 239 where they show exactly what I am talking about. The authors also state velvet is "among the most common diseases of loricariids".

[apistomaster]

I have never been able to diagnose a case of Ich or velvet from skin smears from Plecos examined under the microscope and I have had plenty of material to examine. It has always turned out to be Chilodonella at 400X magnification.
I can't speak to Siedel's assertion. It simply is not consistent with my observations. Gross visual examination can lead one to conclude it is Ich or velvet but those respond to treatment much quicker and are not associated with most loses. You know I use the proper method to diagnose the diseases and do not use gross visual determinations. You know I do not make statements I haven't checked without skin smears. I was only 13 when a local pathologist who had me take care of his office tank amd I would spend a couple Saturdays a month with his microscope, histology text and prepared slides and he made me draw what I saw and identify the tissues I saw on the assorted slides. Not the kind of things most teenagers do.

[emacartoon]

For those reading this at a later date:
Considering I just had to bury my 18" common pleco this past weekend after his skin sloughed off from what appeared to be a very mild case of velvet, I would warn against shrugging off plecos getting velvet just because it's "uncommon." He looked healthy minus fewer than 20 tiny spots right up until the morning of the day he died.

[Barbie]

I had missed this thread. A dear friend of mine was losing H. zebra fry, and water tests were fantastic quality, there was just no visible reason why. I brought some of his fry home when I visited, and without really thinking about it, I put his fry in the condo I used for mine, planning to grow them out. I have always had good luck with them, so I assumed they would thrive. They did not, and when I lost one, then lost one of my own, I had my friend Margie examine them under the microscope. They were crawling with oodinium, while showing no visible to the naked eye, outward symptoms. They would look frayed when they died, but it's always hard to tell if that's from the other fish in the container with them, IME.

Chilodonella is very common in plecos, but rarely fatal, unless they are overwhelmed or stressed. I use proform C for treatment and they tolerate it very well, without needing to raise the temperature. Again, their fin edges will look thickened and frayed between the rays before they ever show a film on their body itself.

Barbie

[zeebo]

hi, I ordered an L264 from another state. It will be shipped overnight in Dec. This thread got me wondering how long it takes for Chilodonella to show up on the fish ? I will be putting him in the q-tank, assumed 2 weeks was enough, but after reading of this parasite, is 2 weeks enough ? How long before it shows it's ugly symptoms ? Thanks, Georgie

[jvision]

hi, I ordered an L264 from another state. It will be shipped overnight in Dec. This thread got me wondering how long it takes for Chilodonella to show up on the fish ? I will be putting him in the q-tank, assumed 2 weeks was enough, but after reading of this parasite, is 2 weeks enough ? How long before it shows it's ugly symptoms ? Thanks, Georgie

[emacartoon]

It took a few weeks for mine to show up. And even then, it was other fish, not my cats. The say quarantine for about a month.

If you're like me and itching to introduce them after two weeks, I would say give the newbie a methylene blue OR malachite green bath (not both, don't mix them) and then move it over. Malachite green + formaldehyde works, too. We did 4 or 5 drops of QuICK Cure for 5 minutes in a gallon for my 2 cories. They were the only ones that survived and everybody in their current tank is clean. That's what I do, now, any way.

[zeebo]

thanks emacartoon, I will do the Qucik Cure method you mentioned since I have that on hand. Appreciate the response. Georgie