New cat ?

[Tyty13]

Hey everyone I'm hoping somebody can answer a question I have that the internet has raised confusion on. I now have added a Lima shovel nose in my tank with my goonch (bagarius rutilus). I want to know how big this guys gunna get. I've read one place said 8-12 another said 21 and this is problematic because I need to know now if he's going to be able to keep up size wise with my rutilus. Currently the goonch is 7.5 inches and the Lima is closer to 8.
Thanks

[Bas Pels]

It appears that not all fishes sold as Lima are that species. I'd suggest you try and find the correct species in the Cat-eLog. This purple link

Sorubim

will bring you to the right place

[Viktor Jarikov]

IME and IMO, chances are great that yours is S. elongatus, which tops out at 1', not 2' as S. lima does. They are hard to tell apart from the exterior features: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... +elongatus

I've never seen a 2' one. I have owned and seen scores of them, which leads me to believe that most/almost all we have in the states are elongatus. I have seen only 1 or 2 two-footers on the photos originating from the USA. Our colleagues in Europe say they see 2'-ers sometimes, not seldom.

Given their perfectly "swallowable", cigar shape (only defense are the short pectoral and dorsal spines) I'd be worried that your goonch will take it down sooner or later. Predators have little problem with a step-by-step swallowing and digesting. So girth is what matters when talking about "swallowability", not so much length.

[Tyty13]

The goonch I have was sold to me as a dwarf goonch. It's the smallest one of them all. He only eats what can be swallowed whole at once. I've even seen him turn down 2inch minnows. My only concern for now is max size. From what I've heard the Lima could get a foot? What is the max length of the lima

[Tyty13]

Would a picture help to identify him? It was sold as a 'shovel nose catfish''. I was prepared for anything 1-3.5 feet.

[Martin S]

Would a picture help to identify him? It was sold as a 'shovel nose catfish''. I was prepared for anything 1-3.5 feet.

A photo would definitely help...though its important to try for side on shots, as close as possible. According to the cat-elog, S.lima is the only pimelodid with a black stripe that runs from head to tail, whereas the S.elongatus has a spotted patterning on the darker top half. But there may be other differences - I haven't followed Victor's link but know he has been involved in the same discussion.
HTH
Martin

[Tyty13]

No spots on this guy.

[Viktor Jarikov]

...My only concern for now is max size. From what I've heard the Lima could get a foot? What is the max length of the lima

Lima maxes out at 2', elongatus at 1'.

... According to the cat-elog, S.lima is the only pimelodid with a black stripe that runs from head to tail...

AFAIU, this is to distinguish Sorubim from other Pims, not to distinguish between the Sorubim species. Please, anyone, do correct me if I am wrong.

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Here is a small write-up I made on lima/elongatus.

These are ambush predators that stay/float vertically, head down among vegetation pretending to be a twig or a plant and wait for a suitable prey to come by too close.

Young Sorubim species like the company of each other; adults don't care.

IME and IMO, the vast majority of people thinking they are buying a Sorubim lima are actually buying a Sorubim elongatus in the US, so chances are great that yours is S. elongatus, which tops out at 1', not 2' as S. lima does.

They are quite hard to tell apart from the exterior features for laymen like us: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... +elongatus (that's one of mine I was trying hard to ID). As you could see, our colleague Back (high level hobbyist) from Finland thinks the position of the mandibular barbels with respect to the gular and other skull features may be telling. I do not remember this approach having been validated by a known respected ichthyologist or having found a paper that justifies that.

I've never seen a 2' one in person, not even one longer than 11"-12" TL, while I have owned and seen scores of them. Mine never grew beyond ~11", which makes me assume they were all elongatus but I have not had them long enough to be dead sure. For now, this leads me to believe that most/almost all we have in the US are elongatus. I have seen only 1 or 2 approximately two-footers on the photos originating from the USA here on MFK (here are some pics of an almost fully grown lima: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... =elongatus ) and a few in between 1' and 2'. Our colleagues in Europe say they see 2'-ers sometimes, not that rarely.

The Cat-eLog entry for elongatus http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... =697offers kind of soft ID: "...Very generally, Sorubim with spots are usually S. elongatus. (VJ edit: as opposed to the other 4 species in this genus; this appears mostly true IME with ~20 of these fish.) They are more of a black water species and, as with most such species, tend towards more variable, spotted patterning."

They need not live feedings, unless we are talking earth worms or ghost shrimp, lizards, land frogs, etc. They are small predators that snatch small fish (anything that can fit in their mouth which is relatively and surprisingly big for their slender body structure but not that big compared to other medium and large pimelodidae catfish), crustaceans, insects in the wild. I always feed mine frozen/thawed foods - small whole fishes, fish pieces, shrimp/prawn/etc. or their pieces if too large (do not peel; raw is better than cooked), and sea foods.

They can be trained to take pellets but the cases where they thrive on pellets are very few it appears to me, even on Hikari Mascivore pellets. I have never seen them fat and happy on pellets, rather always thin and slow-growing. Anyone, correct me, please, if your experience differs.

When small mine like freeze-dried and fresh bloodworms, plankton (mini-shrimp-like creatures), etc.

The growth on elongatus is not fast, perhaps 6"-7" in one year starting from ~3". As you see my experience with lima is most likely zero, so IDK how fast they grow. The fact that they reach 2x larger adult size may or may not matter.

Check this excellent link: http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/sorubim-lima/ - the info is well written and arranged. In the notes it says: " (VJ: S. lima is) Distinguished from S. elongatus by having modally 9 pectoral rays; 21 anal-fin rays; 16 gill rakers..." The page does not state the counts for elongatus anywhere. Neither have I found a species page for S. elongatus. Unless I am missing something, I find this odd and not as helpful as it could have been otherwise. All other pointers refer to things that are subjective. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading the page and learned a lot.

[Back]

Haven't been in this neighborhood off www for years now.
... and this thread is already very old.
Anyhow. Here's the paper I was referring to when it comes to the position of the barbels.

Systematic review of the neotropical shovelnose catfish genus Sorubim Cuvier (Siluriformes: Pimelodidae)
MICHAEL W. LITTMANN
Department of Zoology, Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, IL 60605,USA.

http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2007f/zt01422p029.pdf

It's mentioned in pages 7 and 8