The PlanetXingu project

[Jools]

For the next / third installment in the project I'm hoping to have a bit of a discussion around what I need to explain about the project. To be clear, this is about the fundraising project and not the research project although asking questions on the latter can be taken elsewhere in time.

For now however, I am opening up a thread to allow anyone interested in donating (or who already has - thank you!) to ask anything on their mind. Here are some common Q&As to get started with...

Q1: Who is collecting the money?
All donations are made via a FundRazr page set-up for the project. Payments can be made globally and this route handles all the social media and interaction with donors as well as providing PayPal and credit card facilities. All donations are in US dollars. At the point of donation, the money (less a small handling fee) is automatically send from FundRazr into a PayPal account administered by me.

Q2: Who is received the money?
When the fundraising ends, I will make one transfer of the money to Mark Sabaj Perez who will be responsible for distributing amongst the research team.

Q3: What will the money be used for?
We are aiming to raise US $11,000 (our fundraising goes up to 11!). The principal item is a laboratory grade water flow measuring device to record the rate of flow of the river at different points or depths. This will cost around $7,000. The remainder of the cash is to pay for additional travel, subsistence and communication costs to support the research team in informal interaction with the online aquarist communities via PlanetCatfish.com. Or, in short, to pay for riverside outreach activities. Many photos and information gather will be informally shared with the community well ahead of formal publication.

Q4: Why are you / PlanetCatfish.com doing this, what do you want to achieve?
There are really two aims I would highlight. The first is to support ichthyological research into a threatened habitat that contains fishes of significant interest to aquarists by providing financial support in return for informal access to the day-to-day activities of the research team. Hopefully this can bring the ichthyologists and aquarists closer together by giving both parties a better understanding of what makes the other tick. New species are as exciting to ichthyologists as they are to aquarists, but often for different reasons. The second aim is to more broadly test if crowdfunding (ichthyological) research projects like this can work – so it has the potential to be repeated again to further bring the research to a wider set of consumers (in this case aquarists).

Jools

[jp11biod]

good for you Jools-- let us know when the donation link is available

[Jools]

good for you Jools-- let us know when the donation link is available

Thanks. There are links to articles and the donation site itself in the announcement post:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 52#p264992

Cheers,

Jools

[Jools]

No one has any questions or discussion on this at all?

Jools

[racoll]

No one has any questions or discussion on this at all?

The forum has been quiet of late.

Great idea for a project though. Aquarists learn more about the fish/habitats, and scientists engage their research with the public. This is the way it should be.

Dr Sabaj is actually doing a talk on Xingu biodiversity at the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists meeting next month. Looking forward to it. Should be a good one.

[Jools]

Thanks Rupert, yes you're right in terms of posts. May 2013 was the lowest number of posts in a few years, however viewed posts continues to rise and is about 15% above where it was this time last year. More readers, less writers.

Jools

[racoll]

May 2013 was the lowest number of posts in a few years, however viewed posts continues to rise and is about 15% above where it was this time last year. More readers, less writers.

Hmmm, interesting (perhaps we should split this off?). I wonder if it's a summer blip, or whether people are moving over to the Facebook groups to discuss catfishes? I guess measuring traffic at other forums will tell you if it's PC specific...

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Jools,
Another great initiative!

Perhaps there are no questions because you did such a great job of explaining it in the OP?
Or perhaps everyone is saving their questions for Hanover?

May 2013 was the lowest number of posts in a few years, however viewed posts continues to rise and is about 15% above where it was this time last year. More readers, less writers.

Hmmm, interesting (perhaps we should split this off?). I wonder if it's a summer blip, or whether people are moving over to the Facebook groups to discuss catfishes? I guess measuring traffic at other forums will tell you if it's PC specific...

Would be interested in the topic if you split it of, similar to my email the other week.

Can you increase the $11k if the target is met?

There have been several articles in the news re crowd funding in the news down here lately, as it can be difficult to get funding in this small country
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10891497

[FuglyDragon]

No questions here, all well explained as far as I can see. Have made a donation and shared on a couple of fish keeping groups Im active in on Facebook. Xingu fishes are an interest of mine too, so I'm keen to see any new research images.

[jeremybasch]

I wonder if it would be worth noting that Mark Sabaj Perez will be working in Rio Xingu area for a while. Perhaps he could be of assistance for your project?

Jeremy

[TwoTankAmin]

I understand the benefit of gaining knowledge. However, given that the odds are great that the Xingu and many of the species in it will essentially be destroyed in fewer than 2 years, what is the point of this research? This is the sort of project that might have benefited the river and the fish had it been possible to do it a few years ago.

You know I donate toward fish related sites etc. However, I see this project as not a great use of the limited financing pool that would be available for such things. Most people who donate like to know there will be a benefit from having done so.

So I guess what I am really asking is what is a good reason for me, or anyone else, to contribute to this project as opposed to directing the resources towards something that might actually result in a positive outcome? I do not want to know about a doomed river or doomed species, I want to know about rivers and species that are being preserved. I want to direct my small amount of assistance in ways I feel it will also benefit fish keepers,

I do not make donations to this site because I am great friends with management. I do not donate because I expect to get anything in return. I donate to this site for one simple reason. Over the years the number of times I have come here for information, the number of times I have sent others here for information and the number of times I have seen this advice come from others on sites is why I donate. This site is an ongoing resource for fish keepers the world over and helping to keep that going benefits many fish keepers. it also benefits the fish when users can give them better homes and care. Most of the people who visit and rely upon this site will never donate a cent and they will take and use all its benefits. I can afford to donate and I do for that reason and no other. It is my small way of making sure all fish keepers can continue to benefit directly for a good asset.

I do not see what the direct benefit here will be to fish keepers if this project becomes fully funded and moves forward? It wont help preserve the river, it wont save the species in the river. Please, show me where I am wrong on this.

[Jools]

I wonder if it would be worth noting that Mark Sabaj Perez will be working in Rio Xingu area for a while. Perhaps he could be of assistance for your project?

Hi Jeremy,

Mark is fully involved in the project (indeed he's mentioned in Q2 above). Perhaps I should have linked the announcement topic on the project to this thread: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =1&t=38752

Thanks for the input,

Jools

[FuglyDragon]

to TwoTankAmin

Whilst I certainly understand and on 1 level agree with your comments regarding limited funds and their best use, my initial gut reaction is knowledge is power... any knowledge or information gained is better than not having it, and maybe with the looming demise of this river system what better time to gather what information can be gathered ? I don't know I'm not a scientist or trained in the scientific method but I do believe that the more knowledge and information we can gather the better off we are , when I say we I mean mankind.

[jeremybasch]

Oops! I should have reread the post. Glad he is involved!

Jeremy

[Jools]

Hi Chris,

You raise some great points and being able to talk about them will help clarify the projects aims.

I understand the benefit of gaining knowledge. However, given that the odds are great that the Xingu and many of the species in it will essentially be destroyed in fewer than 2 years, what is the point of this research? This is the sort of project that might have benefited the river and the fish had it been possible to do it a few years ago.

I have to be careful here in talking about PlanetXingu and the wider ichthyological research programme being carried out in the Rio Xingu. The latter is financed and is going ahead. The former is an attempt to get what information is gleaned from the research out to aquarists quickly and interactively and to provide equipment (the flow measuring device) to the team.

So, while rumour, politically skewed or solid information may spread around the aquatic community as to the state of the dam project, the river and its fishes, I thought it more impactful if apolitical but "of interest to aquarists" information was forthcoming over the next few years. I prefer building bridges to dams but given the dam will be built and, as you say, that we will lose many species, isn't it important to know how many and why? Wouldn't it be better if that was stated as fact rather than opinion? Might an opinion such as "the ornamental fish trade cleared out the river way before the dam was operational") exist in the absence of research. Another example, at present

Hypancistrus zebra

is the only Hypancistrus taxon we may lose. As side note, it's also the first and only solely Brazilian species of

Hypancistrus

. History will not have a total of the undescribed species wiped out. While we may well lose part of the lower Xingu, isn't it important to understand that loss (and not just in our aquatic circles) relative to the 40+ other such dam projects planned in Brazil alone. Might we get better at organising breeding programmes etc.

My personal opinion on the point of the usefulness of the project is that the following is hugely worthwhile. An apolitical scientific study of the fishes in the river, the effects on them of the dam and being able to eek out as much info as possible before the wild fishes and wild habitat disappear forever. It's that last bit, the timely, useful and interactive information being published on PlanetCatfish that I seek to fund. And why I've already put a lot of time, money and effort into it.

You know I donate toward fish related sites etc. However, I see this project as not a great use of the limited financing pool that would be available for such things. Most people who donate like to know there will be a benefit from having done so.

Indeed, your financial support for this site is considerable. All "financing pools" are limited, but I think this project is aimed at uncovering new donations and getting people interested in the research. Another reason for PlanetXingu is that so many aquarists identify with the fishes from this region, so I see it as a good starting point.

So I guess what I am really asking is what is a good reason for me, or anyone else, to contribute to this project as opposed to directing the resources towards something that might actually result in a positive outcome? I do not want to know about a doomed river or doomed species, I want to know about rivers and species that are being preserved. I want to direct my small amount of assistance in ways I feel it will also benefit fish keepers,

I don't think anyone wants to know about a doomed river and its doomed species. However, I do think an understanding of this, the knowledge that species X swimming in our tanks no longer exists in the wild, is important. If for no other reason than to increase the impact on further dam building intiatives. If you take a very negative view, given current plans, loss of habitat, pollution and so on, most of Brazil's fish species are doomed - should we not study any of them? Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all I'd suggest.

I do not make donations to this site because I am great friends with management. I do not donate because I expect to get anything in return. I donate to this site for one simple reason. Over the years the number of times I have come here for information, the number of times I have sent others here for information and the number of times I have seen this advice come from others on sites is why I donate. This site is an ongoing resource for fish keepers the world over and helping to keep that going benefits many fish keepers. it also benefits the fish when users can give them better homes and care. Most of the people who visit and rely upon this site will never donate a cent and they will take and use all its benefits. I can afford to donate and I do for that reason and no other. It is my small way of making sure all fish keepers can continue to benefit directly for a good asset.

As I say, that support is hugely appreciated. And don't worry, anyone that hangs around here long enough I eventually annoy them one way or another (much to my regret). If you spend enough time in anyone's company this happens! However, I think the information we can get from the Xingu can help the things you mention in your paragraph above and I think PlanetCatfish is a good place to store that information for the future.

I do not see what the direct benefit here will be to fish keepers if this project becomes fully funded and moves forward? It wont help preserve the river, it wont save the species in the river. Please, show me where I am wrong on this.

I've tried to answer this above already. PlanetXingu won't help preserve the river (but may help preserve others), it won't save the species in the wild (but we will know more about them before they are gone and left only in our tanks). The direct benefit to the aquarist is getting the best information we can, quickly, from the river. If we knew, tomorrow, that all species X (a very attractive and po[pular aquarium fish) had been wiped out, for sure, in the wild, would that benefit those left in captivity? I think so. Thinking about l-number breeding projects, it is direct benefit, for example, to better understand what are species and what are populations of species (or that we don't know). We can't know what a species eats in the wild if it isn't in the wild. There are more things of that ilk that, to my mind, will bring the serious aquarist and scientific community closer by quickly finding out, together, as much as we can and it does provide a blueprint for further such activities going forward.

As ever, happy to talk over more!

Jools

[TwoTankAmin]

Excellent reasons for sure, Jools. I guess I am just upset that such initiatives come too late to save zebras. I know many other species are not as uniquely endemic as these fish. I do believe there are a few other species in other families that may be, if I remember what I have read.

This is also why some time ago I changed my opinion on the illegal removal of zebras from Brazil. I still believe it increased the chance for diverse genetic base of wild wish to be spread around the world to breeders. It is not the same thing for species that are not at such a great risk for extinction in the wild. That picture I posted of all the dirt, and other things we can't identify, going down the Xingu makes me think the extinction process has already begun. I can not imagine having water like that in any of my pleco tanks not just the zebra tanks.

I am probably kidding myself to think any amount of science will ever trump money in my lifetime. So doing this work is probably better than not doing it. And a good flow meter will measure the flow in other rivers down the road. Maybe some of them can be saved.

[Jools]

Just by way of an update, to let you all know I have a bio from Nathan Lujan, a tonne of pics and will be running the first Q&A on the programme soon.

Cheers,

Jools

[grokefish]

Don't know if this should be posted here, so feel free to delete/move but I only just found this and I have to say this IS the best thing I have seen since sliced bread!

[Jools]

Don't know if this should be posted here, so feel free to delete/move but I only just found this and I have to say this IS the best thing I have seen since sliced bread!

Thanks, the last thing I expected to do was go all "Bob Geldof" but I feel strongly about this thing. Expect a lot more content soon including pics, videos and details of the first expedition and how to interact with the team etc. I'm giving a talk at the Pleco Sales and Swaps Meet at Rare Aquatics this weekend and it will include a project update and video from the research team. Once that's done, I will update the site etc.

Cheers,

Jools

[Jools]

Don't know if this should be posted here, so feel free to delete/move but I only just found this and I have to say this IS the best thing I have seen since sliced bread!

And, becuase it's Friday...



Donate link

Jools

[krazyGeoff]

Having fun at work !

Nice