Bloat? and what to do?

batho · Post by **batho** » 03 Dec 2003, 12:52

I have a small L134 (1.5"). He is eating well in a community tank but his belly seems bloated.

What can I do?
Stop feeding? I am feeding spirulina tabs.
Raise temp?
Treat with anything?

Any ideas?

polkadot · Post by **polkadot** » 03 Dec 2003, 14:54

Is it because of overfeeding? Try to starve it a few days and see if it gets normal?

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 03 Dec 2003, 17:11

my bumblebee tends to have a bloated belly as well, this is because heis quite full ;) I usually feed him every other day and the belly gets a nice plump shape, there are a couple times a week when he will also eat the plecos algae wafer, swallows it whole

and at that point he looks bloated, and he tends to just sit in his cave with his ead poked out, I can just imagine him unbuttoning his pants and loosening his belt, lol.

try not feeding it a couple days, wont hurt him a bit, and see if the belly goes away.

Post by **Janne** » 03 Dec 2003, 18:17

And what do you feed the other fishes in your tank? I suppose they dont only eat spirulina wafers.

Janne

batho · Post by **batho** » 03 Dec 2003, 20:11

Feed the others on flake.

But I feed 2 Spirulina tabs per day. Idea is one per Pleco (L141 + L134) + sinking pellets for Corys.

Steve

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 03 Dec 2003, 20:19

Try breaking the wafers in harf and mix the diet for the other fish up a bit, frozen bloodworm, brineshrimp, daphina might make a change. The bloating by the sounds of it is just because they are eating quite well.

Post by **Janne** » 03 Dec 2003, 21:03

Small Peckoltias are sensitive against high protein food and are easily overfeed, check the breathing if it's normal...fast breathing and you have a problem.
If you suspect the bloat you can move him to another smaller tank with good circulation and raise the temp to around 29-30 C (84-86?) to speed up the digestion, starve him for a few days and after that feed him with food that contains much fibre like peas.
No bloodworms to Peckoltia, that is the same to ask for trouble.
Brineshrimp is a good food for them like cyclops and daphnia in smaller quantity but they need some vegetables sometimes for the digestion.

Janne

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 03 Dec 2003, 21:27

janne wrote

No bloodworms to Peckoltia, that is the same to ask for trouble.

can you elaborate on this what protein levels does the bloodworm in sweden contain?

Post by **Janne** » 04 Dec 2003, 21:10

Protein levels?...probebly like the english ones which is not so high in bloodworms, but they still get problem anyway. Its not the protein inselvs that give them problem...more what type of protein I think. It's a good food for many fishes but some species are more sensitive an others to bloodworms like Peckoltia.
They can manage to eat it if you not give it to often and not to much but they get the bloat very easy and why take the risk if you not have to?

Janne

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 04 Dec 2003, 22:44

Its not the protein inselvs that give them problem...more what type of protein I think. It's a good food for many fishes but some species are more sensitive an others to bloodworms like Peckoltia

I had to ask because I often recommend bloodworms.
Also what you said first didn't make sence you said no bloodworm and then said:

Brineshrimp is a good food for them like cyclops and daphnia in smaller

brineshrimp and cyclops contain much higher levels of the same protein compared to bloodworms.

where exactly did you find the imformation between bloating and bloodworms?

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 05 Dec 2003, 04:13

This may have little or nothing to do with the fish in question, But it is as good a place
as any to give you another point to ponder. This is very common in fry. All fish have a natural shutdown on their digestive system, be it temperature or what ever, once it
shuts down digestion stops but the food continues to ferment progucing gas. In fry you
can see the bubble and they float upsidedown on the serface.In larger fish they don't
always float,but it still happens. Normally they will pass the gas over time if there not so
much that it causes internal damage.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 05 Dec 2003, 19:02

a little off topic but still worth discussing.

This is very common in fry. All fish have a natural shutdown on their digestive system, be it temperature or what ever, once it shuts down digestion stops but the food continues to ferment progucing gas

I have read about this condition but never experienced it myself. as far as i know this condition in fry is attributed to geneticly malformed fry.

However if any one has experienced this condition themselves. It would be good to hear the details, is it cureable?. Did your methods cure the fry or was it a case that the malformed fry could not be saved and it was only the strongest of the fry who lived?

Post by **Janne** » 05 Dec 2003, 19:39

where exactly did you find the imformation between bloating and bloodworms?

It's based on my long experience and not scientic in any way, I have keeping and breeding fishes for more then 30 years and for the moment I run over 50 tanks with only loricariids (more then 25 species of L-nr) and I have done lots of mistakes over the time.
I really dont know what it's in the bloodworm there causes the problem for some type of fishes, there are I think 8 different types of protein and bloodworm have something that the others dont have that for sure. I use lots of frozen food even bloodworms every week but I dont give that any longer to my different species of Peckoltia, Ancistrus and small Panaque (Panaqoulus) after I quit use bloodworm to them I have not had any more problem with them (the last 2 years). Before that there was always someone that get the bloat once in a while.
I give bloodworms to all my Hypancistrus, Baryancistrus, Pseudacanthicus and Leporacanthicus 1-2 times/week without any problem and have done that for many years. Maybe you can give them bloodworms sometimes but not in regulary basis without it will cause them problem and they dont need it either for breeding or for some other reasons.

Janne

You dont learn of your success...thats all the mistakes that gives you experience ;)

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 05 Dec 2003, 20:09

Maybe you can give them bloodworms sometimes but not in regulary basis without it will cause them problem and they dont need it either for breeding or for some other reasons.

I normally feed three-six times per week bloodworms to all species including Peckoltia, Ancistrus and small Panaques. howver i do not feed much in terms of volume per feed. were you feeding more often than this?

You dont learn of your success...thats all the mistakes that gives you experience

How true this is

I run over 50 tanks with only loricariids (more then 25 species of L-nr)

Cool how big are the tanks you are using yourself, i'm using 15 tanks 24"x18"x24" with two 600l per hour flow rates, which seem to be working well. could not fit 50 in though.

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 05 Dec 2003, 20:49

GAS BLOATING Lets move this to Speak easy.

Post by **Janne** » 05 Dec 2003, 23:31

No I did not give them more then 2-3 times per week but probebly more then you, I mean not so small quantitys because I fed them heavily of several reasons. First they are many in the tank, second for faster growing and third to bring them in spawning condition. Maybe some species gets more then others and that causes the problem I dont really know but I still feed them heavily but without the bloodworms. I have had same problem with some species of ciclids and small characids under all the years so it's not new for me this problem. Some say it's because of the long intestines in their stomach and that they are sensitive to high protein but I dont really think that is the hole truth, there must be something more.
I can feed fishes with brine shrimps, cyclops or mysis (shrimp) or with my home made shrimpmix that contains 40 % protein everyday without any problem, so my conclusion after all this years is that some fishes have some problem with certain proteins.
It's not that all fishes have died or get the bloat...some of them are in best condition even that they have eating bloodworms before but some of the relatives did'nt make it.

Cool how big are the tanks you are using yourself, i'm using 15 tanks 24"x18"x24" with two 600l per hour flow rates, which seem to be working well. could not fit 50 in though.

One rack with 16 tanks 28"x20"x15" plus 4 tanks on the top 55"x20"x15" and the second have 15 tanks 37"x16"x16" the third have 12 tanks 40"x20"x16" with 6 tanks on the bottom 40"x20"x20" the fourth have 2 tanks 78"x24"x24" with 2 tanks on the top 78"x20"x20" that gives me lot of water changing

and some smaller tanks for fry.
Everyone have owerflow system with automatic water changing so its not so hard...lucky me.

Janne

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 06 Dec 2003, 23:54

ALL them have loricariidae species? how much of sweden do you supply?

It's not that all fishes have died or get the bloat...some of them are in best condition even that they have eating bloodworms before but some of the relatives did'nt make it.

This also fits in with the idea that the condition is due to internal malfunction on a genetic level, diet could also contribute? both could make individuals susceptable?

Post by **Janne** » 07 Dec 2003, 10:22

ALL them have loricariidae species? how much of sweden do you supply?

I have some Corydoras too for company and some bigger characines also in the bigger tanks, the company of other fishes make my catfishes feel more secure and in these tanks they are not hiding so much like they are in the tanks without company.
I contribute with a few species that I deliver to wholesalers but my goal is not to breed and sell so many fishes I can, my interest is to learn and understand how to keep and breed them in captivity.

This also fits in with the idea that the condition is due to internal malfunction on a genetic level, diet could also contribute? both could make individuals susceptable?

The diet is the reason for the internal malfunction either that is genetic or not. I have not heard about this genetic theory and I dont think it fits on wild cought catfishes.

Katman wrote,

All fish have a natural shutdown on their digestive system, be it temperature orwhat ever, once it shuts down digestion stops

I agree, this can also be one of the reason for bloat. In the nature with the different of dry and rain seasons the diet is probebly not the same all year around. Under the dry season they eat less with protein and more of fibre and carbohydrate (green food) and under the rain season they eat lots of protein and fat (meaty foods) they adapt to what nature have to offer. I think the diet together with the external circumstances in the water is the reason for the bloat. I have no experience of gas bloating and have not seeing any fish floating in the surface of that reasons except then they are already dead and that is other reasons why they float.
Fishes I have opened have not having any gas in the stomach instead have the intestines looked like a mess and more or less being like liquid, caused by a haevy bacterial infection that in turn are caused of a constipation from wrong diet.
But I dont excluded other reasons either but I think this is one of the most common reasons for bloat.

Janne