Burning Bloodworm Question

[Valb68]

Just wondering if anyone else out there has observed their Corys breathing rapidly and flashing against plants and substrate after a meal of frozen bloodworms? I recently spoke to a friend of mine that has also observed this behavior in their Corys as well, even after rinsing the frozen bloodworms thoroughly.
Any thoughts, observations or answers?

[donpetty]

<Bump>
No one have anything to add on these bloodworm questions?

I feed frozen bloodworms a few times a week, I thoroughly rinse them under running hot water until completely thawed and many times I mix frozen brine with the bloodworms and feed my corydoras this mix. However, as Valb68 noted I have seen some flashing within an hour or so of feeding the mix and wondered if it was worm related. Doing a general Google on the topic there are several sites with articles suggesting issues and corydoras deaths are suspected from feeding bloodworms. Several users said the issues stopped when they switched to another brand.( Brand names omitted) Can anyone add anything to this.
Should frozen bloodworms be fed with caution?
I would appreciate any thoughts or feedback:

http://www.guppies.com/forums/archive/i ... d22193aca7

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/ar ... 04708.html

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/trop ... rys-44785/


Don

[jobber]

Such behaviour of flashing and rubbing by cories is indicative of ich or something that is irritating the fish. It may not be the result of feeding bloodworms. There could be other factors that may include but not limited to even the quality of water out of the tap being used. The water may contain something that irritates the fish.

Just my two cents.

Sent from my mobile phone

[Valb68]

Such behaviour of flashing and rubbing by cories is indicative of ich or something that is irritating the fish. It may not be the result of feeding bloodworms. There could be other factors that may include but not limited to even the quality of water out of the tap being used. The water may contain something that irritates the fish.

Just my two cents.

Sent from my mobile phone

And that of course, was my initial thought. I tested water and even though all was in the normal range I did a water change anyway. Observed closely for signs of parasite or disease. I could see nothing. I then noticed when I fed my Australian Rainbows and danios the bloodworms they had the same reaction. Rapid breathing, red gills and suddenly were flashing all over the tank. I of course, still panicked and did a water change.........better safe then sorry. They continued to show the signs until about 6 hours later.
What I do know, is I, personally, have always had a reaction to bloodworms and have to wash my hands after feeding it, rinsed or not.
Just wondering if any of the long time fish keepers have had the same issues or know the cause.

[rmc]

I had a few (one or two) Cory losses after feeding frozen bloodworms about a year ago now. I did not put the two things together though. Stopped using them at that time, but didn't think much of it. If I remember correctly some of my Corys had a hard time getting them down, which is why I stopped using them. Interesting to note the change in breathing and flicking behavior - I didn't see that, but it may have been because I didn't watch for long enough after the blood worms were ingested. I know flicking is associated with parasites, but I've seen non-infected corys flick too, maybe just feel an itch, or like there's something on them. If it's not repetitive I don't worry about it. When they have a parasite, they flick a lot - I've seen that. Rapid breathing and itching are signs of an allergic reaction, and Bloodworms are known to cause allergic reactions in humans - makes you wonder.

Mine take live blackworms more readily and seem to have less problems eating them so I stick with that, live bbs, Tetra tabs, sinking pellets, occasional high quality gel food, and quality flake. The fry get microworms and occasionally frozen Cyclops added to the mix. I'm interested in experimenting with other live foods like white or grindal worms and red worms, but can't seem to get good enough cultures going. I have some frozen Mysis shrimp in the fridge but haven't tried that yet either.

[donpetty]

Hi Rob,
Yes, I think that Valb68 and I have both seen allergic reaction's to bloodworms in our fish.
I have read elsewhere that switching brands has stopped the flicking and rapid breathing.
This issue seems to effect Guppies, Rainbows and other fishes as well.
Brand "A" seems to be the brand that everyone in my area sells, so switching brands in not an option for me.
I also feed the live black worms but not as often as I used to, I was worried that not switching up the food wasn't a good thing either- too much protein. I have incorporated more pellet and Repashy into my regime, and think I will cease feeding the bloodworms.
Several hours after feeding bloodworms, the rapid breathing and flicking ceases so I am confident were not dealing with parasites, as I too am very aware of them, and of water quality issues.
Thank you for your thoughts on this,
Don

[Valb68]

I also feed the live black worms but not as often as I used to, I was worried that not switching up the food wasn't a good thing either- too much protein. I have incorporated more pellet and Repashy into my regime, and think I will cease feeding the bloodworms.
Thank you for your thoughts on this,
Don

That was exactly my thought Don. I ordered some Repashy yesterday in fact. I think I'll start culturing some live food also as rmc is doing. Just not worth losing a fish, even if its a rare occurrence when this reaction happens.
Still makes me wonder what it is about bloodworms that creates such a reaction though.........

[Viktor Jarikov]

A couple years back, bloodworms have been discussed but I can't find the thread quickly. What I recall is that someone was seeing deaths and these have been attributed to frozen bloodworms being partly rotten. There was an agreement between members. So that person changed to a different brand.

I buy Hikari here and none of my fish have displayed any adverse reaction.

[donpetty]

Hi Viktor,
I wasn't sure if I would be alright on PC to use brand names. But..
I have been feeding the SF (Sally's) brand of Frozen Blood worms and after a discussion with my friend and fellow PC member Valb68, I found out she is using the same brand, although she buys the cubes and I buy the flat pack.
However, on several other forums I read that the Hikari are a better brand and they have seen no reactions when using this brand.
So I think maybe its a production, or quality issue? I have decided discontinue using this brand.
Thanks for your thoughts on this as well,
Don

[Valb68]

A couple years back, bloodworms have been discussed but I can't find the thread quickly. What I recall is that someone was seeing deaths and these have been attributed to frozen bloodworms being partly rotten. There was an agreement between members. So that person changed to a different brand.

I buy Hikari here and none of my fish have displayed any adverse reaction.

This would explain why it only happens every now and then rather then every feeding of bloodworms. Probably a few rotted ones in there, but not every cube would have them.......
I will also switch to Hikari if I can locate any locally. Thanks kindly Victor

[apistomaster]

Frozen bloodworms are an inherently good and quite natural food for fish.
Problems arise when they have been mishandled and are refrozen after being thawed or if they aren't always stored cold enough.
While some people do become allergically sensitized to direct contact with frozen bloodworms I seriously doubt that fish ever become allergic to properly processed and stored frozen bloodworms.

[donpetty]

Hi apisotmaster;
I do not know if fish can be allergic to an item; and that was not my insinuation.

I was wondering if anyone else had experienced strange issues/effects after feeding Sally's brand of frozen blood worms as I and aparently Valb68 have observed in our Corydoras. I Goggled and read of similar instances on other sites with other fish species before answering Valb68's question on this forum. Seems to be a rough consensus that feeding this brand has caused some issues where as users who discussed Hikari brand reported no such occurrences. Is it a coincidence or a difference in manufacture, processing, shipping to retail etc, I do not know. I do know that I have experienced a process after feeding this brand of food to my fish in which they seem to flash and gasp after feeding on the blood worms and I think its not a positive healthy behavior.
Kindest Regards,
Don

[syno321]

I've tried many different brands, some labeled with brand names, some not. I've seen some pretty horrific stuff in with some of the bloodworms. Through my experiences I've come to only trust Hikari brand, so much so, that I feed it even to Lake Tanganyikan cichlids without hesitation(excluding Tropheus of course).

[Viktor Jarikov]

Two thoughts.

1. In that past thread I am mentioning, there were deaths described, no flashing, IIRC.

2. I observed some of my fish, like Zungaro zungaro, hit the tank's bottom with their side when they try to assist in their regurgitation and/or when they are having digestive issues. I have no clue but may be cories are doing the same when they wanna regurgitate a bad bloodworm(s), so it's not scratching per se.

[rmc]

@don - I completely agree about the blackworms - too much protein can be a bad thing! I try to balance it out as well. The gel food I metioned is Repashy as well, good stuff!

2. I observed some of my fish, like Zungaro zungaro, hit the tank's bottom with their side when they try to assist in their regurgitation and/or when they are having digestive issues. I have no clue but may be cories are doing the same when they wanna regurgitate a bad bloodworm(s), so it's not scratching per se.

This is interesting, as I said my corys seemed to have more trouble ingesting the frozen bloodworms than with other foods, so that might make sense here.
One other thought having to do with all frozen foods, my club had a very experienced and respected speaker this year that mentioned he has seen how frozen foods are "processed" in the factory. He encouraged us to buy the frozen "brick" or "slab" as opposed to the "cubes." This was simply to get more food for the money since the cubes are made by flushing the food into the slots with water which results in more water per cube vs. the frozen brick method. I don't know if that applies to what we are talking about here, but I thought it worth mentioning that the cubes may have different properties than the slabs since they most likely contain more water. Maybe it gives them a different thawing temp, I don't know ... just a thought.

Rob

[Shovelnose]

A couple years back, bloodworms have been discussed but I can't find the thread quickly. What I recall is that someone was seeing deaths and these have been attributed to frozen bloodworms being partly rotten. There was an agreement between members.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =9&t=34773


This one???

[Valb68]

Take this for what it's worth, I'm very much in the minority on this, but I never feed bloodworms (chironomid larvae) to my fish any more.
I found that I could reliably induce bloat (internal bacterial infection) in my fish by feeding them thawed frozen chironomid larvae of the leading brand here in Sweden. This didn't make sense to me as chironomid larvae are the main food of many bottom-dwelling fish, and parasites should be killed by freezing, but after some investigating I concluded that the reason was the way larvae were handled: the bloodworms were dead and had begun to rot before being frozen (plus they were thawed and re-frozen during packaging). Rotten food is a sure-fire way to kill fish.
To make matters worse, chironomid larvae are also allergenic and roughly 5% of the population are predisposed to becoming allergic to them. If your hands itch after feeding with bloodworms, or when you put your hands in the tank after feeding with bloodworms, you are probably susceptible.

All in all I don't feel bloodworms are worth the risks.

Interesting! I think with the reaction my fish have had recently along with the reaction bloodworms give me, I'll just avoid them all together. Like he says, bloodworms aren't worth the risks.
Thanks everyone for helping shed some light on this issue!

[Viktor Jarikov]

Thanks, Balaji! Rings a bell, although I was recalling contributions from other members, e.g., SidGuppy, maybe Marc van Arc... perhaps erroneously. Anyway, this is very relevant to what I recalled.

[donpetty]

All,
Along with Valb68 I also wanted to say Thank you;
When Snyo321 (Paul) visited my fish room in early July we also had a discussion on this topic; so it has been troubling me for some time and I think that the resolution is to discontinue feeding the blood worms all together. There are enough alternative foods that I would not be robbing my fishes of a nutritional component by using Black worms in place of the blood worms, and as rmc stated the Repashy is an excellent food as well.
Kindest Regards,
Don