Teeth degradation in Panaque nigrolineatus

[matthewfaulkner]

The teeth of my 40cm/16"

Panaque nigrolineatus

seem to be degrading. This is something that I've noticed for a while now, and having looked back through my photos I can see a definite change in the size and layout of the teeth. This seems to be a chronic condition and appears to have started in June 2012.

The aquarium is 120x60x45cm/48"x24"x18" (LxWxH), approximately 300 litres, bare-bottom wood only. Filtered by Eheim 2180, 2128 and 3451. It has been running for almost 4 years now with this fish. Water parameters (long term): pH 6-6.5, gH 4-6, kH 1-3, NO3 10-50mgl.

Water changes are usually a minimum of 2 x 30-40% per week with treated tapwater.

It was suggested to me that phosphates could be the cause, and they tested at 0.5-2mgl, but I'm not confident about these results. NO3 today was 10mgl.

The first photo is from April 2012. This is what 'historically' the teeth and jaws looked like.



The second photo is from April 2013. This what they look like now.



The behaviour of this fish has changed, but I don't know when this happened exactly due to being away at university. Rather than typically resting/hiding under wood, he now rests in the open, attached to the large internal filter. There is less general wood detritus in the aquarium, harder vegetables like carrot (which were previously a favourite) are ignored. Outwardly appears healthy, eating mainly Tropical (brand) spirulina granules and sweet potato.

Can anyone offer any advice or help?

[rob rensen]

Looks like irritation....the gum is a little red and looks swollen

[Bas Pels]

Do you provide soft wood in the tank to chew on? The irritation Rob noticed might come from too little woody food - that is, no exercise

[matthewfaulkner]

The tank has lots of wood in it. It's aquarium 'bogwood' and I've had the pieces for years now.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Do you provide soft wood in the tank to chew on?

I think "Bas Pels" has a point and I'd definitely try some more degraded wood. I don't know the reason for the tooth wear, but

It's aquarium 'bogwood' and I've had the pieces for years now

would definitely suggest that it is pretty hard wood.

If you look at Donovan German's work on Panaque spp. he found that they were getting their food from the fungal component of the wood <http://german.bio.uci.edu/Research_1.ht ... ecology_of> & particularly this thread :<http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 8&p=208412>.

cheers Darrel

[characinfan]

I'm not an expert in this species at all but the degradation of the teeth in particular looks like it may be due to inadequate calcium. People with more experience should chime in on this, but if that were my fish, I would try introducing dietary calcium via foods such as tofu (which is high in calcium sulfate), blanched spinach and/or kale and, perhaps later, once the teeth are stronger, almonds. In the meantime, the softer wood will definitely help.

(My 21-year-old characins eat all of these).

[matthewfaulkner]

the degradation of the teeth in particular looks like it may be due to inadequate calcium.

If the degradation was due to a lack of calcium, I think it would have affected all my other Panaque which are kept almost identically. I've had this individual for 4 years now (bought as fully grown adult) but have had others for something like 7 years (bought as juveniles).

[characinfan]

Well, if this fish is having issues despite husbandry that is fine for the other fish, its problems are likely genetic in origin. The proposed foods at least won't hurt it and could help.

[jac]

I'm sure you will be taking good care of your Panaque's, you have the experience.
As you say the fish was allready fully grown, maybe it's getting old? Wildcaught and large means you have no idea of it's age. Softer wood can help it eating enough.

[matthewfaulkner]

I had sort of disregarded the wood as being the source of the problem since it hadn't caused any issues, that were instantly apparent anyway, in the 3 years prior; If the hardness of wood is the cause, then I'll get that rectified.

Would collecting my own wood be better than any of the aquarium varieties?

[Bas Pels]

Personally I'd try and find some willowtrees. They have soft wood, you can use this instantly (no toxic substances in them) and lastly, the tree will regrow rapidly.

[minipol]

I would try adding soft wood, and look for a way to supplement calcium.
Never hearts to fight a problem on 2 fronts at the same time.
It is after all one of your beloved catfish

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Would collecting my own wood be better than any of the aquarium varieties?

Matt I think it would. Willow would be a good idea (like BasPels) suggest, and you could try fruit trees like Apple or Hazel. You could try relatively small diameter branches, both bark on and off, and the sap wood should be quite soft.

If you look at Jools post (in the linked thread) he found that fry grow faster on collected bog-wood than fresh wood

but my young dwarf Panaque (home bred) grow faster on dead collected bogwood (without bark) than on fresh wood with (beech, privet hedge, apple) despite stripping the bark in under a fortnight. I was surprised at this thinking fresher would be better. Roughly equal sawdust laden poo is produced. I guess that micro-organisms in the top 2mm of dead wood are where these fishes are getting the most benefit, but they get less from fresh wood. Or it's harder to get at.

and I remember the late Bob Marklew <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =2&t=35523> saying that he fed

L002

on really soft bits of wood. This is also what Donovan German suggests in the linked thread.

This is "nvcichlids" post from <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 8&p=208412>

I have had similar findings with one that I found very interesting. I decided to bring a piece of wood home from a local river this summer. it was covered with aquatic moss (like 1/2" thick of moss!) and then I also brought home some typical.. "Older" wood that I knew they would like. My panaque destroyed the moss and that piece of wood prior to touching anything else (well they may have touched other pieces, but I could always find them somewhere on this piece of wood when I did my daily fish count.)

and this was my thoughts

If I was keeping Panaques I'd keep the structural wood in, but also feed small amounts of rotted wood, you could literally collect any fallen non-coniferous wood, and pile it up in a damp corner of the garden, once it's started to break down and you can see the fungal mycelia transfer it in to the tank. So really just treat it like another "vegetable", and if neccesary take it out before it effects water quality.

cheers Darrel

[matthewfaulkner]

Update - Almost 2 years later there is not much (if any change) in the teeth. I haven't changed anything, so no softer wood, because I haven't been the primary caretaker and wanted maintenance to be as easy as possible. The fish (Maximus) is still healthy otherwise with no other apparent issues.

[7Pete]

First thing that comes to my mind is lack of nutrients. Add some so called epsom salt or non raffinated sea salt sometimes? Tap water conditioners remove chemicals and heavy metals but also the beneficial nutritions/minerals as well which are the build blocks of every living thing. Food may not provide everything.