PlanetCatfish, forums and FaceBook

[Jools]

As has been mentioned elsewhere, I thought it worthwhile to start a thread on this topic. That's to say, what is the future of the forum on this site given the majority use of facebook. When we started the forum, it more or less killed off the previous technology in the catfish mailing list. Is this beginning to happen to the forum now?

The aim of this thread is to gauge opinion and, hopefully, find out what people see as a good (and useful) way forward.

I'll make a few points for starters.

Firstly, do we care? If the forum exists for well thought out discussions and FaceBook (outside Planet) exists for "is this a common pleco" repetitive threads, then are we well rid of that? Is that arrogant or would it improve the quality (and reduce quantity) of Planet?

How should the Planet facebook page be used? Purely (as it it now) for pushing out information on updates etc?

Do we think facebook will kill forums, generally? Strikes me that there is value in structured intel and good links to the reference part of the site, but many, many forums are not so well placed. FaceBook provides easier access to multiple communities (akin to what tapatalk is trying to do). However, FaceBook gets all the cash raised from advertising etc., fair as they are paying for the servers and bandwidth, but it does diminish what Planet gets and can control.

It may be that next generation forums are on facebook but can integrate with the site (Planet) and that would be great but it appears a way off.

Should we just make the forum read only and move everything onto FaceBook? Aside from the revenue loss, this would alienate a minority and also (from a selfish point of view) makes it hard to follow threads. Would this open us up a lack of quality responses too? Some forums (e.g. what is my catfish) may benefit from that (but clog tags wouldn't work on FaceBook without a lot of work), but most would not. They would not be searchable from the site and they would appear not to be searchable from google (etc) either.

So, I'm not proposing and changes in the short term, but just thought I'd throw a few things out there.

Jools

[Silurus]

I do not have a Facebook account, nor do I intend to open one (I have so far successfully resisted the urge to do so). If the forum goes the Facebook route, then consider me as good as gone.

[Jools]

I do not have a Facebook account, nor do I intend to open one (I have so far successfully resisted the urge to do so). If the forum goes the Facebook route, then consider me as good as gone.

Yeah, I'm very conscious of that. You and a few other "big hitters" are in that same boat. One route might be doing both (and so you'd get more chatter on FB and more gravitas on the forum). The downside being a heck of a lot more moderation (but more people are willing (and able) to do so on FB). However, my gut feel is that either the developers of the forum software or someone who spots a good idea will develop a way to put phpBB within FaceBook but users can still use it via the traditional route just as we are doing now.

But, I do get the point that we will lose major contributors if we just go.

Jools

[Acanthicus]

Hi,

I think this development is a very good sign for the mood of people in these times. facebook is by far the easiest way to get information and you don't need to do anything more than tipping "plec id plz thx". But this is not what most people want who seriously care about the fish. On fb there are only very few good groups with interesting discussions and members with knowledge. Personally I try to use fb as a place for advertisment. If somebody asks for an ID (in another way than the one I quoted above!) I use to post a link to our database. Thats it. It will never replace good forums, because it's just a list of mostly easy and very often also dumb questions. The few good discussions get lost after a week, and there are not very many of them.

So, I think that forums lost parts of their potential because of fb, but it's stil worth to keep them running as always and don't link them to fb in any way.

[minipol]

I'm not a facebook user, and I will try to avoid opening an account as long as possible.
I can understand lots of people who the FB way, but I can't see a reason why a forum should move to FB if it works
like it should. Maybe there's a way to link them so people can choose how to access the forum.

[Birger]

The few good discussions get lost after a week, and there are not very many of them.

This is key...people come to Planet for the database and the knowledge that is based here that can be searched etc.unfortunately right now they are using that knowledge gained and taking it back to FB

I think people will get tired of losing good info a short time after posting.

[jac]

I think it would be a sad day when or if you ever decide to stop Planet Catfish as a forum and turn to Facebook....
I love reading the treads here on the forum and sometimes I look old ones up to gather some information about a subject. That would be very difficult if not impossible on FB because of the treads all being underneath each other, all scrambled up without any logical order. I don't and can not see FB becoming a replacement of a good forum. FB can be of use when a quick and simple answer is needed. But not if you want to build up or store a larger tread with valuable and important information, information that can be looked up trough a search option on the forum.

Hope you will keep on going Jools.....please!

[Bas Pels]

I certainly would be missed as HH would be missed, but I would not come to PC if it was part of facebook.

[Jools]

Yeah, I understand those comments. It's very easy to knock FaceBook but what it does do is provide a secure single sign on consistent user interface (UI) in many languages. I do agree about the "plz id pleko" thing, but that's always been a problem with forums too. There are not many other advantages but the ease of UI is a big one.

I think there is some future in a "link or login with your facebook ID" feature. I would, for example, quite like to post updates on new "my cats" to facebook.

One of the "big things" I (and Mats) are wrestling with at the moment are species population data and sharing that across sites. In terms of PlanetCatfish that means being able to share what data you've recorded on the fish species you are keeping with others sites and avoid typing that in twice. In terms of Planet it provides the advantage of seeing what other people keep with catfish species you are interested in.

Perhaps the greatest advantage of FaceBook is that it increasingly keeps the "plz id pleko" posts off the forum...

Jools

[syno321]

Weighing the pros versus cons I'd say no to FB. I consistently tell people that this is the best web-site for [u]tropical fish [/u]never mind catfish. Because the people that frequent this site provide great expertise and experience, this site can be relied on for accurate information and opinion, rather than the googled misinformation that is the downfall of the internet. The rest of the internet could benefit immensely by PC's shining example. To qualify my opinion, I am registered on FB, but don't use it, and I do not, nor have yet, owned a cell phone.<- Yes I know, prehistoric!

[donpetty]

I have both a facebook account and ..here it comes, yes, I do own a iphone too.

We had this very discussion on Corydoras World and Ian asked these very questions...
The truth is, the Corydoras information sites on facebook are VERY basic and unfortunately
are cluttered by super basic disinformation. I am not knocking Facebook,
or the corydoras sites on facebook. They serve a purpose. The purpose of the facebook
sites are to provide basic knowledge, (The Hook)

But, PC is where you go when you need to really understand and study more advanced techniques
and breeding strategies. I look forward to the growth of knowledge that is shared on this site by
people who know what they are talking about and can back up comments with articles and studies off PC.
I like Facebook, I have found old high school friends and lost acquaintances but, I do not
go to Facebook for critical information. I come here.

I obviously would follow PC on Facebook; But would much prefer it remain right where it is.
Thank you,
Don

[jvision]

I agree with most other posts. FB is like heading to 7/11 or corner convenience store - a quick trip to get a basic need met; however, PC is more like heading to a fine restaurant - you're not just going to be satisfied, but you'll KNOW you're getting top quality info.

[Jools]

Pretty clear then. However, to use an excellent example from above, you don't get many people sitting in a fine restaurant raving for a BigMac (except perhaps me). This is probably coming back to an old thing I always have on my mind about exclusion / bringing on beginners etc. In short, I wonder what response I would get if I asked the question in a FaceBook group. However, I think it is the experience of that past decade or so of running this forum that bringing on beginners (the majority of which don't take their hobby anywhere) is a lot more repetitive effort than most, if not all, experienced aquarists want. That's not being rude, it's just a reality that no one has infinite time and patience.

I think we will continue with FaceBook as a mechanism to push out species updates and perhaps we can find a way to do the same for my_cats/aquaria/blog updates too.

Future technology changes will probably have an impact too. I can see there are enough phpBB (our forum software) communities out there for someone to invest serious cash in developing apps (better than tapatalk) to integrate phpBB with FaceBook, SMS/txt and potentially voice.

Useful discussion, we will see if the forum traffic picks back up again as Autumn hits the northern hemisphere.

Jools

[racoll]

I think it would be unwise to let too much of the basic stuff leave the forum. You need a diverse section of users to make the forum vibrant and long lasting. Many people---myself included---started out from humble beginnings.

You can't make FB go away, so it must be possible to have the best of both. What's important though I think, is the brand image of PC, as the Facebook discussions are currently on non-PC FB pages and divorced from the site, so maybe it's good to try and re-associate the discussion back with PC again?

Jools, I guess you thought long and hard about allowing discussions on the PC FB page, but maybe it's time to open it up to get a good user community in preparation for the time when technology allows you to integrate the two into a single UE?


P.S. I don't use FB for the fish groups, only keeping up with friends.

[krazyGeoff]

Hey,
What I have not seen is the question "what about taking some idea's from FB"

I don't use FB, and am possibly allergic to it, but if you could "like" a post or something like that.
Similar to the Amazon reviews, where people can post a review, or just record that a review was helpfull.

This adds to the helpfulness of content, but also could also become another attribute of the contributors area?

Just a thought....

Cheers

[Jools]

Hey,
What I have not seen is the question "what about taking some idea's from FB"

I don't use FB, and am possibly allergic to it, but if you could "like" a post or something like that.
Similar to the Amazon reviews, where people can post a review, or just record that a review was helpfull.

This adds to the helpfulness of content, but also could also become another attribute of the contributors area?

Yeah, I always wanted to do this, just never got to it. The facebook image upload engine is also very good - however there is next to no chance I will get that replicated here!

Jools

[TwoTankAmin]

I am in the I don't do Facebook and never will camp. If this site has to move there to survive, I understand that. But I wont go there- which might be a motive to make the move for all I know

All the things that make this place a great site and an asset to the serious fish keeper as well as the passers-by should never stop being here as far as I am concrned. The newbies who never really progress much further have no need for this site. For them Facebook is ideal. For those who need to know more and better information, Facebook will never be the place to find the answers.

Here is the best way I can sum it up. This place is like a university. the best information and some of the best minds can be found here. Facebook is certainly not even close to being that and never will be.

I never want to see +1 on this site, if one doesn't have something to add to or to refute what was said, just don't post. +1 is a vote in a popularity contest and nothing more, imo. Think of its effect on readers who are not posters-. the best/right answer or information is that with the most +1s.

Guys- please never take this site down in favor of social media.

[dog321fish]

Jools

If it is not broken why fix it ? Have you noticed a large drop off in Planet Catfish useage ?

There is a place for both media imo

Cheers

Dave

[Jools]

Facebook will never be the place to find the answers.

I don't know about that. I completely agree in its current form, but it's current form has not ever stayed still. I guess it's hard to stop thinking about FaceBook as a place to "like" pictures of pretty fish and start thinking of it as a platform. This is where the discussion gets a bit technical, but basically, it's the forum section of Planet that's under the microscope here. I have zero even very long term plans to move the species and articles parts of the sites. I am also pretty certain the "my stuff" (my cats, aquaria, blogs) are likely to remain "in-domain".

Here is the best way I can sum it up. This place is like a university. the best information and some of the best minds can be found here. Facebook is certainly not even close to being that and never will be.

If you don't "do" FaceBook, how do you know? Where are they going with this: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Synodont ... 62?fref=ts ?

I never want to see +1 on this site, if one doesn't have something to add to or to refute what was said, just don't post. +1 is a vote in a popularity contest and nothing more, imo. Think of its effect on readers who are not posters-. the best/right answer or information is that with the most +1s.

Well, that's one effect of not moving the forum to FaceBook, there will be the inclusion of "helpful? (yes/no)" or similar things. Although that's a separate discussion. Sure, +1 means popular, but my four year old already knows that's what it means and knows that is different from best/accurate. IME, the biggest single problem with an international forum is posters not understanding why their posts are not popular.

Guys- please never take this site down in favor of social media.

Not going to. Integration with FaceBook (or the thing of the time) is probably where we will go.

Jools

[Jools]

Jools

If it is not broken why fix it ? Have you noticed a large drop off in Planet Catfish useage ?

There is a place for both media imo

No, Planet usage continues to grow - that's to say readers and visits ("hits") grow between 5-15% every year. However, forum posts are down even when seasonally adjusted. Mostly this is due to absence of forum regulars posting, the number of posts from members with less than 100 posts is up a little (seasonally adjusted). If we were losing the newbie, never posts more than 100 posts types then I'd be less activated. What we are losing are the regular and/or expert posts. Thats the facts looking at data over the past 9 months.

My opinion is that we are suffering from dilution. That's to say, if fish folks have 100 words to write every day online in relation to their hobby, then these words are diluted across multiple platforms. Consideration of FaceBook is a way to regain some of that. We may be a "university" but, like it or not, our post-grads are partying in the bar across the road (and why shouldn't they).

All that said, maybe we are just getting back to a normal level. Maybe (and there's little data on this) it's something that happens with a decade old community. Peaks and troughs. I'm not sure, but it's worth having a chat about it.

Jools

[krazyGeoff]

Where are they going with this: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Synodont ... 62?fref=ts ?

Jools

I'm not entirely sure where they are going with that.
I click the link and get a page with basically 4 things on it.
A picture of the flank of a fish. Looks like it could be a Synodontis, but only because I know what one generally looks like.
Three words. "About Synodontis Interest".
An indicator telling me that 163 people like this topic and 1 person is talking about it.
The opportunity to "like"

So what do I feel.
Well I feel that since there are 163 people who like this, then there must be some content somewhere, must there?
This means two main things; either there is some content that I am being blocked from seeing, because I'm not in the FB club, but that seems odd as 163 people like it, perhaps it is some kind of scam to steal my data by making me sign up?
OR there are 163 people who "like" any random thing.
In addition it makes me feel old and frustrated that this is what the world is coming to.
I just don't get it, and would not be willing to trust that source for any usefull information.

Perhaps that is the point?

Perhaps a younger person needs to comment?

[racoll]

I see that almost every post here is "anti" Facebook by non-Facebook users. I wonder what that is telling us?

The PC forum---last bastion of the technophobes!

[exasperatus2002]

I use facebook and for groups, I use it for quick questions or for chatting with other members but the main site is an invaluable wealth of info I always return to. It's good to have both because you'll atract members that may have missed us by other means.

[Marc van Arc]

I see that almost every post here is "anti" Facebook by non-Facebook users. I wonder what that is telling us?
The PC forum---last bastion of the technophobes!

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this.
Definition: technophobia is the fear or dislike of advanced technology or complex devices, especially computers. Thus, your statement doesn't make sense.
My problem with FB is that the whole thing is so shallow that - if it were water - you couldn't drown a fly in it, even if your life depended on doing so.
It also causes (especially younger) people to be completely unable to conversate with eachother - let alone other people - in real life, as they haven't got a clue what to say to eachother by using their vocal cords. I see them every day during school breaks with their Iphones, Ipods and what have you, vigourously typing to or with eachother without saying a word. We're going to have a very poor generation in that respect.
I know my meaning is not going to get me a lot of "likes" or "thumbs up" and honestly I couldn't care less. However, that doesn't make me a technophobe.

[racoll]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this.
Definition: technophobia is the fear or dislike of advanced technology or complex devices, especially computers. Thus, your statement doesn't make sense.

It was only a joke. I should have added a smiley.

I see them every day during school breaks with their Iphones, Ipods and what have you, vigourously typing to or with eachother without saying a word. We're going to have a very poor generation in that respect.

But have you ever stopped to think that they are perhaps more sophisticated in communicating than we are? The degree of multitasking, adapting and understanding complex and highly dynamic language actually impresses me a lot.

[krazyGeoff]

There was a joke (of sorts) going around a while back and it pretty much went like this.

How do you get from location A to Location B (you have to drive to make it funnier)?

People over 35(ish) look up a map book, plan the route out, memorise it, then have the map book on the passanger seat while they drive.

People aged between 20 and 35, tell their GPS device where they want to go, and then whislt talking to their friends on their cell phones follow the instructions from their GPS device without any hesitation.

People under 20 post their current location on FB along with the description of their car and their destination and then use crown sourcing to have people give them instructions and run from buildings to point the way etc.

Its just a different generation.

FB has its place, no doubt.

It all comes back to the fit for purpose thing....

[jac]

We are going a little off topic but I found it funny what you wrote Geoff! In Holland, if you apply for a job at a courier, one of the first questions they ask you is if you can drive by memory or map reading! In case your navigation fails.... You will be amazed how many youngsters fail in simple map reading to get from point a to b This younger generation does not learn from/by doing so but depends on technology...and what happens when that fails..................... What if that Iphone didn't work......

[Jools]

But have you ever stopped to think that they are perhaps more sophisticated in communicating than we are? The degree of multitasking, adapting and understanding complex and highly dynamic language actually impresses me a lot.

+1.

I notice this in the corporate world, despite being over 40, I'm fairly OK (according to Geoff, I'm 20) but I see guys I guess even 10 years younger than me being made to look useless by their inability or unwillingness to do this kind of stuff. I was going to give some smartass examples of my typical multitasking working day using these skills, but I think a better one is the family wedding I was at this weekend. It was a young crowd, masses of technology present, nobody sitting in a corner staring at a screen. Kids dancing, interacting, all good. However, loads of coverage on FaceBook, Twitter, Instagram and so on - some nice content (no more or less shallow than a family album) going on. What I don't notice is any kind of dependency when the technology goes off. I realise I am biased. My kids are too young for me to understand how this will pan out but my hunch is the constant availability of tech will mean they are well equipped to understand when to use it and when not. But I'd much rather they picked up a device and interacted with it than sat in front of the TV. My four year old son is a likely to pick up his iPad and draw something as he is to watch TV (on it), play a recreational or educational game. However if there is something more interesting happening (like jumping on his Uncle) then that's what happens.

In FaceBook parlance, young fishkeepers understand what is going on when they post that picture of the veiltail green dragon bristlenose they just bought and got 10 likes from their mates but the picture of them breeding a barb got 8 likes from cool fishkeepers that are friends but they don't really know (but think are cool). Of course there are many who are sophisticated enough to get a kick out of both but more inspiration from the latter.

As to the technophobe thing, it's interesting. I see FaceBook (and mobile computing generally) as an enabler. People who don't use computers much can pick up a touch device and be doing things with it very quickly. Another reason why facebook is popular - it's bridged a generational gap.

However, this is turning into a generation technology thing. I guess the point being made above is that no one is chiming in in support of facebook as they're all too busy using it! It's a really interesting discussion though.

Jools

[Jools]

I use facebook and for groups, I use it for quick questions or for chatting with other members but the main site is an invaluable wealth of info I always return to. It's good to have both because you'll atract members that may have missed us by other means.

Yeah, I think that's right - as FaceBook beefs up it may be useful for quick things and possibly even longer discussion that you may wish to come back to in a few years time. Again, I have no plans to do anything other than integrate more with it. I guess I am working out just how much and when.

Jools

[racoll]

This pretty much sums it up for me:

http://xkcd.com/1227/