L-200 Hemiancistrus subviridis, sunken eyes, not eating

[93MSB]

1. Water parameters
a) temp: 84f
b) ph:7.6-7.8
c) unknown
d) unknown
e) Ammonia-0 ,Nitrite-0, Nitrate-10-20
f) 10% daily (tap has ~1ppm ammo)

2. Tank set up
a) 55gal 48x21x13
b) Leslie's PFS mixed with carribsea white tahitian sand
c) Eheim 2076 pro e3
d) seiryu stone ~15lbs, manzanita driftwood, 6-7 java fern
e) tankmates? none atm
f) cycled for 1 month (3months total)
g) last new fish added? 3/12/13 (this pleco)
h) Foods used and frequency? tried aquadine duradisk, tetra wafers, wardley shrimp pellets, frozen bloodworms fed at night after lights out right before bedtime

3. Symptoms / Problem description
sunken eyes, no appetite, no poop

4. Action taken (if any)
see story

5. Medications used (if any)
none, other than prime water conditioner

heres my story, ill copy/paste from another forum:

I need some help with a pleco that doesn't appear to be eating.

I had the pleco shipped overnight monday evening, I received the fish tuesday morning by 10am. I immediately left work and took it home and had it in the bucket being drip acclimated by about 1030. I came home at lunch (12) emptied half the water in the bucket and drip acclimated for another hour. I then netted the fish and placed it in my 55gal. It immediately went behind a rock structure and didnt see it until Wednesday. I did not immediately feed because I assumed it wouldn't eat from the stress. When i saw it wed i noticed the eyes were sunken (AHOH!). I gently forced it from the rocks onto the glass so i could get a look at the belly. To me, it appeared flat, not sunken or full. I took some pictures at that point of the eyes and belly.

here are high res pics:
http://imageshack.us/a/img194/4143/img1339ml.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img94/2162/img1336jy.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img201/5557/img1337b.jpg

I tested my water next. temp:78 ph7.6-7.8 ammo-0 nitirte-0 nitrate10-20ppm.

At that point i contacted the seller, he advised me to turn the temp up to 84 and told me the fish were eating Xtreme and Cobalt wafers at his facility. I ran around town but couldnt find either of those. I did buy what my LFS suggested, and ordered the extreme wafers off amazon and will be here today. The wafers from the LFS were ignored. I have also tried frozen bloodworms and shrimp pellets but nothing seems to be eaten. Ive even crushed up garlic and soaked the food.

Yesterday I went to the extreme and removed all other fish from the tank turned the lights off and covered the tank for minimal light. It does get more active at night when its really dark but the food still doesnt look like its being eaten. I also have not seen any poop, but it does stir the sand up quite a bit

I have been doing small PWC's everyday because my tap has ~1ppm ammo right now so I cant really do a large change. I do also have driftwood available in the tank

is there anything else i can do to entice appetite or reduce the stress even more? Im afraid his digestive system has shut down though and its too late

[Barbie]

Do his eyes look any better yet? He doesn't actually look to be skinny, so I wouldn't give up on him just yet. A lot of times you don't see them eating or notice any real poo until they are comfortable in the aquarium. He can graze on biofilm and any driftwood to help "reseed" the bacteria in his gut that are lost from shipping issues. Do you have other healthy aquariums with any plecos? Over the years I have found the swapping in driftwood from tanks with healthy fish can also assist that.

If his eyes don't look better in a day or two, I would consider treating him with metronidazole in a smaller tank, if he was mine. There are a few protozoal issues that can stress them and metro seems to be one of the easier meds on the fish. I can't tell from the pictures, but do his fins look frayed at all?

Barbie

[93MSB]

Barbie,

His eyes might be slightly better, but they are definitely still sunk in. I haven't had another look at his belly because right now he is very shy and only comes out at night when it's near pitch black.

I do have another tank with a small piece of driftwood for a bristlenose pleco, he's very active and growing like crazy. I'll swap the pieces of driftwood now.

his fins are not frayed at all from what I've seen, however when he's out moving they are all stuck straight out like he's stiff and paralyzed. when at rest he pulls them in

I'll do some research on that med, is that something I can find easily?

also, how should I have the current in the tank? slow? fast? medium? i know the natural environment is fast moving, but should i turn it down some to reduce his energy spent? or turn it up for more oxygen exchange?

thanks,

rich

[zeebo]

hi, I have 2 blue phantoms , which are basically the same as far as needs go. They don't need protien in their diets, they need veggies. To get them to eat veggies, try starting with zucchini, skin on sliced , raw. I had to start one of my L128's on veggies by using garlic guard, the liquid, scored a bit of the zucchini, and stuck 1/4 pc of wafer in ,also soaked with garlic guard. I had to repeat this with new piece of zucchini for a few nights. You can try 2 pieces ,one skin on and one skin off, but use the ''garlic guard'' and a familiar wafer. Once they go for the wafer, they get a taste of the veggie and realize it is food. I know you said he won't touch the wafers ,but give this method a try and he should settle in and begin to eat soon. Good luck, I know it is hard to be patient , but he should get the idea and get hungry soon. Georgie

[zeebo]

also, not sure about L200's but I do know that L128's must have a lot of oxygen, so I keep my water level lower than rim with 2 HOB's and have 2 air stones in there too.

as mentioned above, no shrimp or meaty foods for these guys as can cause bloat. I imagine some keepers do give protien, but I play it safe, just imo.

Can you get a cave or two in there, or some slate you can create one for him, just build up some rocks nice and steady and put a nice piece of slate on top, mine love to hang out under the slate, but also have large wood, and granite caves, so lots of hidey choices for them. They feel safe=less stress.

well ,please let us know how he is doing. HTH, Georgie

[93MSB]

I knew they needed veggies mostly, I was just trying different things to get him to eat something. Im going to the store tonight to get zucci and probably a sweet potato. Ill do exactly what you said and stick the wafers the seller suggested in the food.

He does have a cave to hide in where noone can see him, but it is just one. However, I just got another shipment of rocks in today which i boiled at lunch. They will be ready to go in the tank when i get home and ill make some more hiding spots.

ill lower my water level so my spraybar is just above the water level, that should stir it up quite a bit.

thanks again!

[zeebo]

sounds like you are doing everything right for him. Were you able to get some ''garlic guard'' or similar from your aquatic store ? It really does stimulate their appetite. I had more luck with that than real garlic, don't know why. As for sweet potato , my blue phantoms won't touch it, however, if you blanch it ,perhaps it will soften enough for him. Raw spinach is another fav, as well as red bell peppers. Once you get him to eat something, you can continue that veggie for a week or so ,then begin to try new ones. Zucchini is your best bet to start with.

also, good that you created more oxygen , esp in temp of 84d. Once he is eating regular, you can drop the temp ,but keep the oxygen high if the L200's call for it, I only know that the L128's need it for sure.

He should settle in soon, and remove uneaten veg in am, new piece in each night, he'll figure it out.

you can see a pic of my 54g corner tank which is home for my phantoms on the ''tank talk'' section here ,scroll to ''silk plants'' thread ,just to give ya an idea of the slate ,rocks and wood mine dig. good luck and please update us. Georgie

[93MSB]

I just strapped a piece of zucchini and a piece of sweet potatoe to a couple rocks and spread them out amung the spots I've seen him frequent most. I also put one of the algae wafers by itself.

I didn't get a chance to go to the store for the garlic, if I can't find it ill have to order it off amazon

but we'll know in about 8hrs if he's eating yet

[zeebo]

crossing fingers . if you can, get some plastic food clips to sink the veggies. If you can't find them , or the garlic guard, pm me if you would like me to pick both up for you . The clips are cheap,work great. Let us know ... Georgie

[93MSB]

good news! he did take a very small bite and just a tiny bit of grazing on the zucchini!! it wasn't much of anything but he is eating something. I put it in raw last night, should I try one blanched and one raw tonight?

i really appreciate the offer Georgie, but i can order the clips and garlic no problem. I just might not be able to find it locally.

[zeebo]

good to hear ,at least he took a nibble. Continue to put in raw zucchini, a strip , perhaps peel some skin off, but leave some skin on, he may have a preference.One of my blue phantoms goes for the skin only, the other goes for the inside first, then does some work on the skin.

It dosen't need to be blanched because it is a soft veggie. Veggies such as butternut squash or sweet potato are harder so they would need to be blanched for SOME L's ,phantoms, yes, whereas wood munchers can eat the hard veggies no problem. So tonight, zucchini again, raw. Good to see he is recognizing it as food ! pls keep us updated . Georgie

[93MSB]

oh so you cut it long ways? last night I just cut an end off so it was a "disk" and I did scrape half the skin off

I'll cut 2 strips tonight one with skin an one without

also, can you give me an idea about how much he should be eating once healthy and fully acclimated? he's 3.5-4in

[zeebo]

hi, yeah, I do cut into thin strips, however some people slice it like disks. Dosen't matter how,I just like to avoid the seeds getting in my filters.

Hard to say how much , for me I just stick a piece about an inch for the little guy and a few inches thinly sliced for the bigger one. They eat what as much as they want, and also depends on the veggie, some they prefer more than others, so they will eat more of favs, but I like to give them a variety and this way they are getting varied nutritional meals. If he is not eating as much as you put in, just cut it down some. As long as the tummy is healty and eyes not sunken, you will know he is eating enough. Remember, he is just learning that veggies are food, but once he gets the idea, he should be eating well.

If you notice clear poo segments, that would mean internal parasites, but he should have been de-wormed by seller if reputable.

Once in a while I give them frozen, nuked ,deshelled peas,(nuke a few for 1 min, cool, then pinch off the clear shell) they love them and it ensures to ''clean them out''. Mine love peas so much they come out with lights on for um. Just a few, once a week or once every 2 weeks is good. This also helps to prevent bloat.
Georgie

[93MSB]

We are definitely making progress now! I got a good look at the eyes last night and they are looking a lot better. Still not 100% better but getting close. He has become a lot more active at night as well. I even removed the cover from the tank last night and he still came out and swam around. I still have not actually turned the tank light on though.

He also ate a good bit more last night than he has thus far. I improvised a veggie clip with one of the tubing suction cup holders. Raw zucchini is what he likes so far. I was excited so I took a pic:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2623/img1350nd.jpg

i guess my next step is to try and find some poop to make sure its not clear correct? the seller was wetspot in portland,OR off aquabid if anyone is familiar with them.

[zeebo]

oh, that is good , he is on his way ! continue with the raw zucchini for at least a week or more, then you can begin to introduce new veggies, remembering you may need to start the same process all over again, or he may just realize whatever comes in the tank at night on your "clip" means food is attached. You will have to see.

As for the poo , you may see segments with color, whatever he has been eating, so zucchini would be light green, and he may me rasping on the wood, so brown poo segments from that , but if you see any clear segments , that means the internal parasites are eating too, thus , the clear segments between colored segments.

Someone else would have to ans your question about your supplier. I do not know him. Could you call and ask him? Usually wild caught plecs are de-wormed because they are wild caught...but you don't know who he shared a tank with before you got him.

So glad he is eating , things should pick up from here on out. Funny, I have seen many pictures posted on the fourms, but I have never seen someone post the eaten food, too funny, but I get it, you are thrilled he is beginning to eat and wanted to share, got a smile outta me. please keep us informed how he is doing . I would keep the heat up a bit longer , to encourage him to eat.. later you can bring it down once he has it all figured out. Georgie

[93MSB]

I am finally seeing some poop now, it is mostly light green like the zucchini. There are just a few hints of brown from the wood im assuming. I did notice on one piece there was a small whitish segment, but there was a very very light green hint to it.

[zeebo]

good to hear , and don't freak when he eats red bell pepper, his poo will be bright red, just like the inside of the pepper ! Sounds like he is getting the hang of it. Good work on your part. Georgie

[93MSB]

He's gonna make it, the past two nights he has devoured the zuchinni and there's bright green poo everywhere lol. Now it's just matter of time until hopefully he starts coming out during the day with the lights on.

I also noticed my LFA has a blue phantom for $30 and I'm soooooooooo tempted but I don't think I have the room for it

[zeebo]

nice job ! Thanks for letting us know. Don't forget the de-shelled peas once in a while too, to keep him cleaned out.

What, no room for a blue phantom ? Time to get another tank

Georgie

[93MSB]

another tank?! I have to stop listening now lol

I really want it though, and the price is awesome which makes it that much harder to say no. I have a 30gal tall hex but it would be cramped very quickly. My only other option is to put it in my 55 but I think its already getting crowded with:

10x false harlequin rasbora
2x angels
1x redtail black shark
4x angelicus loach
1x L200 green phantom

[zeebo]

that's what happens with plecs, we get bit by the bug and either have to maintain self control, or find room for more tanks. Ya know, chuck some furniture , etc
Georgie

[Narwhal72]

Next time you get fish shipped to you I would suggest changing your acclimation method.

A slow drip is fine for fish that have been in a bag a very short time but is not good for fish that have been in bags for extended periods of time.

The reason is that as fish are in bags they are still excreting urine which becomes ammonia. The fish are also respiring which takes in oxygen and releases carbon dioxide. As the carbon dioxide concentration in the bag increases it becomes carbonic acid which drives down the pH of the water. At pH values below 7 virtually all of the toxic ammonia becomes nontoxic ammonium.

Once you open the bag and the carbon dioxide dissipates into the atmosphere the pH goes back up again to what it was before. The nontoxic ammonium suddenly reverts back to toxic ammonia. By doing a slow acclimation the fish are basically sitting in a bath of toxic ammonia filled water.

The longer the shipping time the worse it is.

For fish that are shipped overnight the best method of acclimation (IME) is to float for about 20 minutes to match temperature and then open the bag and strain the fish through a net (with the water going down the drain) and put directly into the aquarium. IME this has been the best way to acclimate fish that have been in a bag for an extended period of time.

As an alternative some people will add an ammonia neutralizer to the bag and then you can still do the drip acclimation. However I have not seen any advantage to this in application.
Andy

[93MSB]

Andy,

Thanks for the info, I'll definitely try that next time.

The fish were in the bag for approx 16hrs I'm guessing. The seller did put 4 pieces of seeded filter media in the bag. I'm not sure exactly how helpful it was though.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

For fish that are shipped overnight the best method of acclimation (IME) is to float for about 20 minutes to match temperature and then open the bag and strain the fish through a net (with the water going down the drain) and put directly into the aquarium. IME this has been the best way to acclimate fish that have been in a bag for an extended period of time.

I do this, in fact it is the technique I use for introducing all new fish, into the clean tank water asap. Because I have planted quarantine tanks I'm less worried about the polluted bag water, and I often just open the bag and encourage the fish to swim out.

cheers Darrel

[zeebo]

ok, indeed, I see the necessity for getting him in the tank faster and out of the toxic water in the bag if it has been in there a while, and it was said 20 min to match the temp, but what about the ph? suppose there is a big difference in the ph in the bag to the tank ? Do you test for that ? just wondering because my lfa keeps their tanks at different ph's. Thanks, Georgie

[93MSB]

That was my thinking Georgie, I was afraid the ph difference would be harmful so I drip acclimated. However, now that yall have said something about the ammonia I can see why it would be the lesser of two evils

[zeebo]

but still wonder about ph shock. I have seen fish roll and die during a wc that had a different ph from the tank. Just wondering . Georgie

[DOLEMITE]

How is the L200 doing now? Still showing signs of improvement?

[dw1305]

Hi all,

That was my thinking Georgie, I was afraid the ph difference would be harmful so I drip acclimated.

but still wonder about ph shock. I have seen fish roll and die during a wc that had a different ph from the tank.

This honestly isn't a pH effect, the killer is still ammonia (NH3). The ammonium ion (NH4+) is relatively non-toxic and is the dominant form of ammonia/ammonium below pH7 (it is a pH dependent equilibrium). When you add new alkaline water, the pH may rise, and the NH4+ ion will become the dissolved and high toxic ammonia gas,(NH3). <http://www.nico2000.net/analytical/ammonium/NH4lib.html>.

In non-planted tanks with few water changes pH will naturally fall over time.

Have a look here as well: - <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/bioacidification> &
<http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=37146>.

cheers Darrel

[93MSB]

How is the L200 doing now? Still showing signs of improvement?

He's doing great now, has a full belly and the eyes look a lot better. He is still very shy and hides in a cave during the day, when I switch to the night light he comes out if I leave the room or I'm not paying attention watching tv. As soon as I walk out into the room or look over at the tank he either freezes or swims for the cave lol.

I do need some help getting him to eat peas though, how exactly do you all prepare them? I de shell them of course and I've tried just dropping them in and I've tried blanching them but I can't get him to eat any. I guess the seachem garlic is my next action to take unless someone else has any ideas