Acestridium dichromum

[MatsP]

I hacked up a little map of the coordinates that Jools gives above...

http://linuxhost.matsp.co.uk/calculator/map.php

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Mats

[wrasse]

I think we get your point now. I didn't have to bother sharing any information on this fish, good or bad. I'm aware of what's gone wrong, and it's me that dropped the ball. I get it. Unless you have anything constructive to add or suggest like every other contributor has to this thread then it's probably best you say nothing. I've never been so irritated by anyone in my life. I was hoping that the purpose of publishing the information would help people understand the species a little further, if only what not to do. Very much established ferts are not suitable around this species now. Thank you.

Welllll I guess your test-tubes are well and truly rattled.

I think I made a fair point in clear plain language. This fish likes water that's almost chemically pure and you put them straight into a cold soup!

Then you blind us with your chemistry set which, fair enough suits some readers. Not me I'm afraid.

[Flyfisher]

I'm not a fan of chemistry either.
I've kept a number of species successfully in planted tanks and spooned nitrates in with no problem at all. The hard thing here is, they're costly fish and to really understand, you need to buy two more, then make one change which is to stop feeding nitrates to the tank. If they live you can if you wish establish that this was the cause, even though its still just guesswork.
After keeping tanks in a similar way for some time, my feeling is that some fish handle excess nutrients better than others.
The sad thing is, what environment is best for plants ain't what's best for fish, so a compromise needs to be found. But expensive fish can be lost while finding that compromise.

Not sure temperature killed your fish, but one things for sure, you need to tell Mrs Lurch to leave that heating alone! Or you'll have to kill her too!

[lurch1000]

Oh, the gas bill helped regulate the house temperature a bit

I understand that chemistry isn't everyone's bag, and it does need to be as long as there is a basic understanding of the demands of the fish that have been chosen, and that there is a means of keeping an eye on basic parameters to ensure some sort of stability.

Those of us that choose to pursue their interest in to chemistry and the deeper workings of an aquarium do so from curiosity. Afterall, without chemists and biologists, we'd have no understanding of which fish we could keep in any given water parameters, so somewhere in between makes for a good balance IMO.

I appreciate that trial and error is often the case within the hobby, but if we can use some of the basic tools and test tubes afforded to us, then suffering of our fauna can hopefully be avoided.

I may (or may not) get some more, but I intend monitoring my tank without the fertilisers prior to purchasing any more fish, particularly sensitive ones. I fully intend being able to keep my fish alive and well!

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Chemistry may float my boat, but I have found it a key to understanding a lot about the aquarium, and it also means I am able to search for answers to problems using chemistry rather than purely anecdotal evidence.

I like the scientific approach as well, but I do have some sympathy for Wrasse's comments. The problem is that, to be of any real use, any physical or chemical parameters must be accurately measured, and we need to make sure we've measured all the ones that are important.

If we can stick with some science "jargon" it is a multi-factorial problem, and to get some usable parameters would require a combination of replication and multivariate analysis.

Factors like NO3, DO and even pH are difficult to measure accurately, even with dedicated professional laboratory grade analytical equipment.

Fish death
It is "always" the more demanding and difficult fish that die, this is because they can only survive under a limited range of conditions (these can be oxygen demand, food requirements, pH range etc) and as soon as conditions stray outside of these boundaries death is inevitable, either really quickly with something like low oxygen or high NH3, or as a more protracted death with unsuitable food or pH.

Often the stress of unsuitable conditions means the fish loses condition and immunity and dies "from" White spot, fin rot etc.

Easy Fish
Easy fish are "easy" purely because they have a wider range of tolerance, and conditions have to decline a lot further before stress and death occurs. The vast majority of tropical fish we keep come from rivers and non-rift lakes which are transient in evolutionary terms and produce species which can and do change, adapt and mutate over time through the action of natural selection on the genes they pass from generation to generation. It is this combination of natural selection and artificial selection that has now bred Cardinal and Neon Tetras etc. that can survive in water which is much harder and more alkaline than their natural habitat.

Why ancient stable systems produce specialization
If we want to find fish that are a real challenge to keep we would need to find a tropical region where stable conditions over millions of years have allowed specialised fish to fill a range of evolutionary niches. Lake Tanganyika would do, ancient, huge volume of water, stable temperature, highly buffered, nutrient poor etc and full of fish with some very specialised adaptations. When people started keeping Tangs they really struggled because we didn't realise just how odd the water was. We don't struggle so much now because we understand more about the water and it is relatively easy to add compounds to water to raise the alkalinity, GH and KH.

In the Amazon basin we have another ancient stable situation, very nutrient poor, warm water with extremely low TDS. Again we have specialized fish - Panaque, Panaquolus, Cochliodon wood eating fish, the huge speciation of the Hypancistrus, the diversity of catfish in general, adaptive radiations of Tetras, Geophagine Cichlids etc.

An extra problem with soft acid waters is that it is much easier to add things to water than to take them away.

Loricariid keepers are lucky in that relatively few of their fish come from black waters, but many of the fish that do, Chocolate Gourami, cichlids like Dicrossus, Satanoperca, Apistogramma diplotaenia, Heckel Discus etc. are some of the most difficult fish to keep. They demand very clean water because they have little resistance to diseases (their acid water bathes them in constant very dilute disinfectant) or parasites, and they often need careful feeding because they come from water which is poor in food, and where any food item will be eaten, even after the fish is stuffed with unsuitable food.

These fish will never be commonly kept, they are too difficult to keep and even more difficult to breed. We can be pretty sure that Acestridium dichromoum is on the "difficult" list, finding out exactly why is the tricky bit.

cheers Darrel

[lurch1000]

Excellent post Darrel.

I agree with the accuracy comments for many of the tests available, but they do give us an indication, and more importantly let us know of any parameters that change. For instance, I may have had 100ppm of nitrate, I may have had more or less than that, but I can take from my test that the level was high, and also higher than I would normally expect to see, thus indicating that there is something wrong/different/unsuitable.

[lurch1000]

Jools - Just watched the video snippet now I'm on a computer, good little clip that.

If I replace these fellows I may purchase a small power head or pump to give some current at the back higher up. Wouldn't be a bad thing to have in my tank regardless of whether I did or not anyway. Some of the AllPondSolutions stuff is ridiculously cheap these days, so even if the pump wasn't that great a success, then it's not going to have been an unnecessarily hard dent on the wallet.

[Jools]

Just obtained the species description. There is an interesting passage on experimenting with the species changing colour. Just before that, there are some really good ecological notes.

Ecological notes and colour change observations

Acestridium dichromum

and A. martini are known from lowland reaches of Black-water and clear water streams below 150m of elevation . Species where collected in portions of streams with slow to somewhat moderate current. Water clarity was usually greater than 2m. Water temperatures ranged from 25 to 29°C and pH from 4.5 to 5.5. A. dichromum was typically associated with aquatic or semi-aquatic vegetation usually in streams or along the edges of larger streams and occasionally the two species found together. Also collected in sites devoid of green plants such as leaf litter and submerged branches. A specific individual recorded as from Black-water clear tannins: .5 m deep pH 5.1 what the temperature of 25°.

Jools

[lurch1000]

Interesting, particularly on the pH front. Is the full description something you would be able to link to?

I have read notes where it is recommended they are kept in a planted tank, and others where is is recommended that they are kept in leaf litter. I'm in the middle of a document about the "Fish assemblages of the Casiquiare River", mainly as it describes some of the water in which this fish is found. Not sure if it has the info I'm after yet as I've only reached page 6.

Where was the temperature range as shown in the catelog obtained from by the way? That suggests 23-28C. The example you have just cited indicate that might need revising up, if only by 1C. However, from what I understand of the citation, that is based on a couple of specific sites rather than the broader distribution. Did I read that right? I guess if it is the original description form '91, then the geographical spread of the fish would have been unknown.

Am I to assume that very few people on here have kept any Acestridum at all then? Only other references I have found to keepers is in the Far East from a few years back with mixed success.

[The.Dark.One]

Obviously there will be people who sit on either side of the issue about the usefulness of in-depth water chemistry readings etc. I admit that it is useful to know in what conditions the fish live in, in the wild. But even I (who has a very basic understanding of water chemistry - see below) realise that some conditions cannot be mimicked in aquariums without causing more problems than you are actually trying to solve.

My personal view is that testing of all the different water conditions and hypothesizing about different combinations can actually make things much more complicated than it needs to be, both for you and potentially therefore for other aquarists.

Personally I've found that to keep most fish alive and feeding well etc (breeding is I admit sometimes a different story), the most straightforward and useful questions are usually the most helpful. In answer to why your fish died the questions I would ask are:

1) How long were the fish quarantined before they were sold?
2) What general conditions (temp, acidity, planting level, substrate etc) they were kept in in the shop?
3) Whether they were eating properly in the shop; if so, what were they eating?
4) If the answers to 1-3 were of a positive nature, did you replicate similar conditions? If they were negative, perhaps they shouldn't have been purchased at this point?

In this case I'm guessing they hadn't been in long (they were 'newly stocked' on 9 February, and purchased on at the latest the 21st Feb). This could mean they were still stressed from import and may not have been established themselves after that in terms of eating well. That, combined with the additional stress of moving again and into an aquarium with high nitrate levels could have been enough to finish them off.

[lurch1000]

...
My personal view is that testing of all the different water conditions and hypothesizing about different combinations can actually make things much more complicated than it needs to be, both for you and potentially therefore for other aquarists.
It can, but it can provide information to those who do find it of interest or use, those who don't find it of use can skip to the summary I placed below the test results and draw what they like from there. I just provided the evidence to back up my hypothesis. So, yes, high nitrate was likely responsible, but not because of the nature of nitrate, but because of the added salinity to the tank. You could have swapped nitrate for any other dissolved solid and the outcome would likely have been the same.
...
1) How long were the fish quarantined before they were sold?
I believe at least 10 days, it was about this period between when I discovered the fish for sale and receiving them. They wouldn't ship them out when I first enquired (not that I could have accepted fish immediately), so implies that a settling and QT period is adhered to at the shop. From what I know of the retailer, I suspect their QT policy is a good one, although I don't know the exact details other than they like to ensure that the fish are feeding as one of the requirements.

2) What general conditions (temp, acidity, planting level, substrate etc) they were kept in in the shop?
26C, 6.8, planted, don't know, additionally, the TDS was stated as 90ppm and the hardness was 6

3) Whether they were eating properly in the shop; if so, what were they eating?
Yes, courgette and Tetra vegetable based food, can't remember offhand

4) If the answers to 1-3 were of a positive nature, did you replicate similar conditions? If they were negative, perhaps they shouldn't have been purchased at this point?
The conditions of my tank were similar, slightly acidic, planted tank, soft water, plenty of algae for food. What I didn't realise until it was too late that my TDS was more than double (hence the osmo-regulatory hypothesis).

In this case I'm guessing they hadn't been in long (they were 'newly stocked' on 9 February, and purchased on at the latest the 21st Feb). This could mean they were still stressed from import and may not have been established themselves after that in terms of eating well. That, combined with the additional stress of moving again and into an aquarium with high nitrate levels could have been enough to finish them off.
You may correct there T.D.O., and there of course may be many other contributing factors, as yet, that have not considered. Hopefully the detailed information and the summary information I have posted will be of use to other keepers or future keepers of these fish. I would like some more, and if I can get back to low nitrate, sensible TDS etc, then I can consider more, and know that their chances have, to the best of knowledge, investigation and research, been improved.

Thanks for your comment, I do like your outlook and approach to these matters.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

For instance, I may have had 100ppm of nitrate, I may have had more or less than that, but I can take from my test that the level was high, and also higher than I would normally expect to see, thus indicating that there is something wrong/different/unsuitable.

This is the crux of the problem with nearly all nitrate testing methods, including ion selective electrodes, other anions interfere with the tests, so you aren't really sure what you are measuring. Chloride ions are a particular problem, so you really do need to take the results with a "pinch of salt".

I use another approach to water quality monitoring, it is one that uses conductivity as a proxy for water quality, it isn't ideal, but it gives you a ball-park figure to work from. I choose conductivity because it is possible to measure it accurately and there is a linear relationship between dissolved salts and conductivity.

cheers Darrel

[lurch1000]

...Chloride ions are a particular problem, so you really do need to take the results with a "pinch of salt".
I see what you did there!

I use another approach to water quality monitoring, it is one that uses conductivity as a proxy for water quality, it isn't ideal, but it gives you a ball-park figure to work from. I choose conductivity because it is possible to measure it accurately and there is a linear relationship between dissolved salts and conductivity.
I'm currently monitoring conductivity and pH via digital meters daily. Today's is a pH of 6.8 and a conductivity of 0.36mS/cm, so relatively still stable. Slight increase in conductivity by 0.03mS/cm since the water change, but no change since the wc+~20h.

I have a TDS meter coming too, largely to satisfy my curiosity. I am aware of the limitations of TDS testing, but it's a ballpark figure that can be handy to have.

[MatsP]

Since a TDS meter (of the type you get for £5-£50 in regular online shops etc at least) simply measure the electrical conductivity (it displays a different number, but that's just the scale - same as a car with a KM/H or MPH doesn't change how fast the car is actually moving), I'm pretty sure it won't tell you anything you can't tell already with teh EC meter.

I think making measurements of the water chemistry isn't a bad thing. But it's not guaranteed to solve anything either.

I think these fish would do best in a species aquarium - at least for the first few months until you have observed their feeding and general behaviour, something I did point out early on, and no, I'm not really trying to say "I told you so" - I would be the first to admit that I've sometimes done stupid things and put fish into tanks where they, long term, weren't suitable or would not compete well. The only thing we can do is take those learning experiences to heart, and try to find a better solution next time we encounter the same species - or stick to other species that are easier to care for....

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Mats

[lurch1000]

Interestingly using general comparison charts I found for TDS and conductivity, my conductivity conversion factor fell outside the range of any of the charts I've seen. As I mentioned, it's largely to satisfy a few curiosities I have.

Creating a species tank isn't beyond the realms of possibility. I hadn't dismissed or ignored the earlier comment Mats, I've been more thinking about where it went wrong, as knowing the why is important to carry forward whatever happens. I'm very disappointed that a tank that could have been ideally suited had become a bit of a disaster in this instance.

So, focusing on a species tank, this open a little bit of a quandry. Jools quoted the initial description of the species and the water is described as pretty acidic, the shop selling them keeps them in slightly acidic water. Would one start with stats to match the shop and tinker the water to acidic, or would one maintain the initial conditions? I'm still dying to know how other keepers of this species keep their specimens. Not entirely sure what size tank to house them in either. 10 gallon 18"? Bigger? Smaller? I guess planted with wood and areas of high and low current would be beneficial, maybe some leaf litter. This way the fish would have the choice of where to primarily reside, and the tank adapted to suit over time.

Not entirely sure how to interpret your final sentence!

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have a TDS meter coming too, largely to satisfy my curiosity

Mats is right all TDS meters are actually conductivity meters. To measure TDS you have to filter the sample and then evaporate a known volume to dryness, before weighing the residue.

my conductivity conversion factor fell outside the range of any of the charts I've seen

They aren't exact figures, it depends upon the dominant salt, if it is NaCl they are usually set to 0.5, for other salts 0.64 (100microS = 64ppm).

Have a look a this link: "Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation, Ionic Imbalance & pH" by Joe Gargas at: <http://www.tbas1.com/Exchange/The%20New ... d%2011.pdf>.

Would one start with stats to match the shop and tinker the water to acidic, or would one maintain the initial conditions? ........

I think you would have to start with RO water and then add a bare minimum of things to it. One of the UK's premium Apistogramma keepers, keeps his "black water" Apistogramma spp. in 100% RO, which has been sphagnum peat filtered but not had any other salts added to it <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index ... ion.11247/>.

Not entirely sure what size tank to house them in either. 10 gallon 18"? Bigger? Smaller? I guess planted with wood and areas of high and low current would be beneficial, maybe some leaf litter. This way the fish would have the choice of where to primarily reside, and the tank adapted to suit over time.

As large as possible to give you some chance of stability. I wouldn't go smaller than 2' (60 litre).

I would definitely have a silica sand substrate, plants, wood and leaf litter. Plants like Java Fern, mosses, Indian Fern (Ceratopteris), Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium), Anubias, Bolbitis, some Echinodorus and Cryptocoryne spp will grow slowly even in very nutrient poor conditions.

I use the "Duckweed Index" as an indicator of when plant feeding is necessary <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 1&p=247580>.

If you have a look at the tank set-ups on the "Parosphromenus project" <http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/e ... stics.html> this is the approach I would take, but with more flow and oxygenation to take into account Acestridium dichromum natural habitat.

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

I personally believe in "ignore pH, concentrate on TDS" [I use TDS as a proxy for Electrical Conductivity - because to most people, a TDS meter is what they can easily get hold of - EC meters are of course almost as easy to get hold of - and most people can sort of correlate TDS with "the added powder to RO water"] - in natural water, low pH == low TDS. In "captive" water, that relationship isn't guaranteed, but pretty much unless you mess with things (e.g. adding phosphate buffers), it should still follow.

I would aim at a TDS around 100 - if you keep a close eye on things, you could perhaps go a little lower, especially in a low stocked tank [if you only have a few Acestridium on their own, or perhaps with a small group of tiny fish - neons or one of the smaller pencilfish perhaps - in 60 liter], it should be OK to drop the TDS down to around 50-75 ppm.

--
Mats

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I personally believe in "ignore pH, concentrate on TDS"

I think this is good advice and it is my suggestion as well. I wouldn't rely on pH, as it is a very strange measurement for all sorts of reasons, and as you approach pure H2O becomes essentially meaningless. There are more details on the linked "Apistogramma forums" thread.

I would aim at a TDS around 100 - if you keep a close eye on things, you could perhaps go a little lower, especially in a low stocked tank... it should be OK to drop the TDS down to around 50-75 ppm.

You can definitely go down to 50ppm TDS in an under-stocked planted tank. The reason for this is although microbial filtration is compromised at low pH and dKH values plants are about an order of magnitude better at biological filtration.

[if you only have a few Acestridium on their own, or perhaps with a small group of tiny fish - neons or one of the smaller pencilfish perhaps - in 60 liter]

A pencil fish like Nannostomus eques would be a good dither (as long as there were areas with less flow), but I'd be tempted to keep them with just 8 - 10 Corydoras pygmaeus as tank mates.

cheers Darrel

[lurch1000]

My main focus of the investigation was mainly on the conductivity (not having had a TDS meter at the time). pH readings were taken as I have a pen and it was very easy to do at the time.

Excellent thoughts and suggestions for the Acestridium tank. C.pygmaeus was a possibly on my list of Cory species, though I;ve not seen any locally, unless I try Ferrybridge, and pencil fish have been long admired but never previously considered. Funny you should mention Apistogramma spp. (with regards to water quality), I've just been offered some A.viejita. Oddly enough the person offering me the A.viejita has Paros as well, and keeps them in acidic blackwater. Nice plant suggestions, going to have to get over the whole phobia of non-SA plants if I go for it, some of the non-SA suggestions are excellent plants for the habitat.

Sounds like we have a project on our hands!

Thanks everybody for excellent contributions. Sorry I cocked it up for the fish, but hopefully it's something that others can take forward for what to avoid when keeping Acestridium spp.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

going to have to get over the whole phobia of non-SA plants if I go for it, some of the non-SA suggestions are excellent plants for the habitat.

It is shame more SA plants are available. Plants like Tonina "Belem" and Potamogeton gayii would do for these sorts of aquaria, but they are difficult to find.

I've just been offered some A.viejita

Nice fish, I'm a big Apistogramma fan. The fish sold as "A. viejita" is a domestic red coloured form of A. macmasteri, but is still a nice fish.

has Paros as well, and keeps them in acidic blackwater

Are the Paros, P. "Bintan"? I'm still looking for some females.

C.pygmaeus was a possibly on my list of Cory species, though I;ve not seen any locally, unless I try Ferrybridge, and pencil fish have been long admired but never previously considered

They should be fairly widely available, if you find a shop that keeps them in a good condition make use of it, as they are the sort of fish that a lot of shops kill off fairly quickly, strangely C. pygmaeus are cheap to buy.

They both benefit from some live food, and Pygmy Cories love micro-worms. Dwarf Pencils (N. marginatus) would be another option, they are a bit more predatory than N. eques. You can dither Apistogramma with Pencils as well, tetras tend to be more problematic, although Black-Neons are fine.

cheers Darrel

[lurch1000]

I can get, and have had T.belem, but it's demands are quite high. It likes CO2. I got some instead of T.fluvilatis on the promise that is if didn't survive, they'd sort me out. After a week it gave up the ghost. Getting hold of any plant is easy enough for me, it's I've not found a list of SA plants yet. Far too many plants to gothrough them all to find out where they come from.

I can't remembber which Paros he has, but I'll find out and let you know.

We had a good investigation in to the viejtas, and after much deliberation and googling settled on viejta Gold, and reasonably confident at that.

If I was to keep only one other species in the Acestridium tank, it would be the Cory. They're a particular favourite of mine as a species, and if let loose, the house would be full of them! I'm based in Leeds and the Cory selection out of the shops I've been to is limited, and I have most of the species on offer anyway, that's how limited it is, with the exception of the odd surprise, but I don't go to the shops as I find it hard not to end up buying something. I managed to go to one this morning and only come back with the food I wanted. Mainly because I took the bike

[lurch1000]

The Paros he has are P.opallios.

I've seen them, and they are absolutely stunning things.

[Jools]

Interesting, particularly on the pH front. Is the full description something you would be able to link to?

Sadly not, it's copyrighted to the hilt and offline.

Where was the temperature range as shown in the catelog obtained from by the way? That suggests 23-28C.

The original description actually has quite a lot of range data. I think the cat-elog data came from some research, the Baensch Atlas and a half decent understanding of the rivers. I'm fairly happy with it especially now I've looked into it more, the fishes experiences at least that range in the wild. many folks reading that info will typically be setting up a tank with that species in mind and so will tend to set parameters in the middle of those gathered.

I have another specific reading from a collection in 2010 by Nathan Lujan which was temp = 28.6ºC, pH = 5.7, SpCond = 12.7 µS/cm, DO = 82% sat, 6.4 mg/l. That's pretty high DO for warmer water...

Jools

[lurch1000]

Hmm. Wonder how much info shops can obtain on their imported fish?

[Jools]

Hmm. Wonder how much info shops can obtain on their imported fish?

That is a new thread if ever I heard one! Maybe best not to pollute this thread with it...

Jools

[lurch1000]

That was a throw away comment, a musing if you will!

Who's gonna start that thread then?

[lurch1000]

Been thinking about this species tank, but more about co-habitants. Depending on how far down the pH goes at the previously mentioned TDS of 50 will have an effect on selection, and possibly rule out C.pygmaeus.

[lurch1000]

The search has started for a 2'. Trying to find something not too deep. Also going to have to go for a fluorescent fitting as I can't see cheap LEDs being useful for the plants, and the useful LEDs come with some price tag...

[Jools]

Been thinking about this species tank, but more about co-habitants. Depending on how far down the pH goes at the previously mentioned TDS of 50 will have an effect on selection, and possibly rule out C.pygmaeus.

The thing about a species tank is that it has one species in it, this is perhaps deviated from a little bit when on considers things like dither fish. If you're going for a cory, I'd go for a blackwater cory, something like

Corydoras adolfoi

in this set-up. Something that will take black or clearwater.

If it were me however, I'd establish the tank with some nice blackwater Rasboras or similar and replace them with the

Acestridium

.

Jools

[lurch1000]

I'm open to all suggestions. I latched on to the Cory idea as I'm quite keen on Cory, and C.adolfoi are one of my favourites.

The tank will be started with water similar in nature to the shop's water, and slowly adjusted to more blackwater standards. I intend giving this tank as big a jump start by using sand and some plants from my 4'. I shall be robbing media from there as well (there's enough of it!). I have some pebbles that have algae on that are in my shrimp tank too.

Need to find a new custodian for the shrimps too. Anyone want to swap my shrimp tank for a 2'er?