Acestridium dichromum

[Jools]

I'd worry about DO first and foremost in that tank?

Jools

[lurch1000]

DO?

Gonna kick myself when you reply, but it's been a long day.

[lurch1000]

Penny has dropped.

Changed the water since, but I'll have a test tonight/wee hours and see what it is.

[Richard B]

Some cichlids may be able to withstand 400ppm & appear to be doing well but it's not good for them. I know if nitrates in my tanganyikan tank start to build the lucipinnis really suffer whereas the granulosa & polli etc are all fine. This shows that some fish are far more sensitive than others & I think these are hyper- sensitive to the minutest adverse condition in the confines of an aquarium.

I think these could be kept successfully if there was a very specific dedicated tank set up for them but it would need careful consideration

[lurch1000]

I'm sure the nitrate debate will be hotly contested for a while. 400ppm is so extreme, I'm just wondering where the accepted safe level will be.

Anyway, that aside (where is safe anyway), higher levels of anything will mean a greater TDS and a greater conductivity, which is where the issue may lie for South American fish generally. Let's say for argument's sake, the nitrate (as a toxin) isn't the issue, but the level would affect the osmo-regulation of the fish, which is what I'm trying to work out at the moment. I have some more tests to do (found the jug), and some past tests to look up for comparison.

I've taken a lot for granted as this tank, and it's predecessor that I upgraded from have been so consistent and rock solid for such a long time, it appears I may have got a little complacent.

More soon.

[Jools]

Happens to us all, these things are mostly invisible without test kits or fishes to tell us.

Jools

[lurch1000]

Doesn't make is any easier. I've prided myself on keeping water tip top. Admittedly it's only recently I've had a conductivity meter.

Test results in, and they're indicative of where the problem may lie. Ammonia and nitrite were zero earlier, these are the parameters I elected to check earlier. I've done a 50% water change as a precautionary measure and to deal with the nitrates.

Param PRE ..... Post
pH .. 6.75 .... 6.9 (needs rechecking in AM)
KH .. 1.0 ..... 0.9 dKH
GH .. 5 ....... 4 dGH
NO3 . 100 ..... <50 mg/l
C ... 0.52 .... 0.33 mS/cm

So, the conductivity was miles off where it should have been, most likely to do with the nitrate level. So while nitrates may or may not be bad, the added conductivity/TDS may well be.

@ Richard B - I'd be very interested to know more about the nitrate effect on your cichlids. As it's off topic, would you mind sending further info as a PM? Thanks.

[lurch1000]

Results of the DO test.

First time I've ever used this test! Got given it a little while back. It's the JBL O2 test if that's salient for anyone.

The test was performed at 0645 and it was dark, but not pitch black. The sample was taken from the middle region of the tank. Possibly no real photosynthesis would be happening, but I intend taking random samples at various times of the day, and in to the true night. I'd rather go to bed at 4am than get up at 4am for a test

Result: ~ 6mg/l DO

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Not sure if oxygen would necessarily be an issue, but I might get up tonight or very early in the morning and try and oxygen test, but I'm very much doubting it.

Ammonia and nitrite were zero, nitrate test not too long completed was a record level, I need to repeat the test because I don't believe it, said 100ppm.

Others will disagree with me, but you honestly can't accurately quantify dissolved oxygen or the levels of fixed nitrogen with any kit available to the hobbiest. Even with a lab full of analytical kit it is quite difficult.

They aren't fish that I would keep in a tank with regular fertiliser additions, or with CO2, I would have plants, but as a technique of improving water quality.

Have a look a these posts for a more complete explanation: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=36231>, <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=35930> & <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =4&t=26791>

cheers Darrel

[lurch1000]

I'm fully aware of the limitations of home test kits, and less aware of the problems with lab testing.

Interestingly I have been corresponding with API about the assorted shades of zero that people seem to be getting from the ammonia tests and asked the question about how accurate the kits are. The question for referred to Mars USA who stated that the test was accurate, just the interpretation of colour would be where the errors lay. They also admitted that some colours are so similar to the next colour. I perform my nitrate tests siluted by 20% as at 100ppm, you'd never tell it from 40ppm up to 160ppm. At my dilution, I observed what I believed to be less than 20ppm on the test card, so took that value and multiplied it by 5 to get to 100ppm. I have witnessed hot debates about consistency too, namely with plant food manufacturers (I got grumpy once) and they stated that the tests are wildly inconsistent. I can't say I have observed this* and indeed on my last water change of 50%, I can state that (to my interpretation of colour) that the nitrate level was reduced by 50%. * environmental factors notwithstanding

So indeed, take all tests with a pinch of salt. The very act of measuring something (not just chemically) changes what is being measured at one level or another.

I have just performed another DO test, and the one this morning while it was still largely dark was around 6mg/l, maybe a shade under. The one I just performed 20 minutes ago suggests 6mg/l too, although I'd say the colour was a little stronger. So at best after 4 hours of photosynthesis, I have added an indicated (approximate) 1mg/l of oxygen in to the water. One would have assumed a reduced level at night and a higher level during the day. I'm going to test again after dinner, around 7pm, see what 9 hours of photosynthesis brings. Might go for a pitch black test at around 1am for an idea of what the tank does over 24h, or see if the test makes a jot of difference.

Once I've got 24h of results, I'll post them here, see what gives. I could do a nitrate test each day, acknowledging the above statements and linked threads, but I'm not sure that's going to be worthwhile, might do one on Thursday night though.

Back to the not using ferts and CO2. I don't have pressurised CO2 anyway (come back to this in a sec), and this week I have abandoned use of the Ei/PMDD ferts, and I am dosing Easycarbo (Glutaraldehyde) at an amount of 6ml per day (1.5x standard dose). I hope to see a fall in nitrate over the week if the plants are respiring well, or at least no significant change, and with a hope to reducing the current 50ppm of nitrate by water change next week. I have a value from a spot test by the water board on my tap water nitrate, think it was about 5ppm, I've tested it at 2.5ppm (API) before, so whatever we think about test accuracy, there isn't a right lot of nitrate in my tap water. So, I'm happy with that at the moment.

Pressurised CO2 - now, heavy photosynthesis will consume DCO2, and in doing so, can lift the pH, and in some cases, certainly where the water has a higher KH, the pH can swing wildly. I'm also monitoring pH at several point during the day to see how stable the pH is. One case I saw with a pH of 7.2 in the morning and 8 come the evening. the carbonate was 4 or 5dKH, and the addition of CO2 saw his tank stabilise. So, CO2 may not be a bad thing, if only for stabilising pH, and if properly controlled via solenoid or displacement by agitation.

dw1305 - I could converse for hours about aquarium chemistry, I have a (sad?) passion for it and get get immersed for hours in assorted papers and Google searches, shall try to contain myself to within the reasonable remit of this thread.

[lurch1000]

Following the simultaneous deaths of my two Acestridium dichromum, I decided to find out why. This has been worded to suit forum reading and as a general journal for anyone to refer to out of context.

The Acestridium dichromum arrived at my house at 0730 on a Thursday morning, were slowly acclimatised and then released in to my tank. Both were found dead on Monday morning, not having been seen since Saturday night. The bodies were not mamed, damaged or disfigured, nor were they thin or visibly under-nourished. The following outlines the first set of investigations, along with a little information about the aquarium. The most astonishing matter for me is how quickly they expired.

The tank they were to be introduced to was a Juwel Rio 240. The tank is heavily planted South American themed tank with large pieces of bogwood. There is plenty of flow in the tank, and choice of which area of flow in which to reside. The water is slightly acidic with very low carbonate hardness and low general hardness. The tank, and its predecessor it was upgraded from had been stable with regards to pH and KH for a very long time. Tank mates are predominantly Corydoras catfish. Other Loricariidae in the tank are four Otocinclus vestitus. Other tank mates at the time of introduction included Black Widow Tetra and Angel fish. Any aggression from the Angels was conspecific barring an altercation with Balloon Rams, instigated by the Rams. As a planted tank, NPK fertilisers were in use at the standard recommended dose, and Easycarbo (Glutaraldehyde) was a source of carbon for plant respiration. The tank temperature is typically 23.5-24.5 degrees centigrade.

The tank parameters had been so stable, testing was occasional and predictable, which had also led to complacency. A little naivety regarding the detailed tank parameters played a part. Soft and acidic is far from acceptable for ultra-sensitive fish, far more has to be taken in to account, specifically salinity for osmo-regulatory purposes which is where the problems may have laid. Typically the conductivity of the tank will have been 0.33mS/cm, higher than a South American tributary stream, but far from the results that would be found in even areas of moderate water hardness in the UK. After an initial test for ammonia and nitrite showing a negative, I started looking deeper in to the tank. The test results carried out are as follows, and were quite a shock and a surprise to me.

pH - 6.75
KH - 1.0 (German degrees)
GH - 5 (German degrees)
NO[sub]3[/sub] - 100mg/l
Conductivity - 0.52mS/cm

These test results are from the Monday morning following the discovery of the dead fish. The nitrate level and the conductivity were a record for my tank. I would suspect the elevated conductivity was connected to the excess nitrate. The tank is typically nitrate heavy due to fertilisation, and the water quality is managed via larger water changes which have two purposes. First purpose is a to ensure water quality, and the second purpose is to encourage spawning behaviour from the Corydoras.

Because of the deaths, a 50% water change was carried out following the above tests. An hour was left to pass, and the following test results were collected.

pH - 6.9
KH - 0.9 (German degrees)
GH - 4 (German degrees)
NO[sub]3[/sub] - <50mg/l
Conductivity - 0.33mS/cm

I decided that the following morning (Tuesday) I would monitor the tank throughout the day. I should add that I have abandoned the use of the fertilisers, although I am continuing using Easycarbo at a rate of <6ml per day, just under a 50% overdose to assist respiration to investigate the consumption of nitrate specifically by the plants. I was also curious as to whether the consumption of dissolved CO[sub]2[/sub] would affect pH throughout the photoperiod.

These tests include the results of tests for dissolved oxygen (DO) following a suggestion by a forum member.

0645
DO - ~6mg/l

0915 (15 minutes prior to photoperiod)
DO - ~6mg/l
pH - 6.6
KH - 0.9 (German degrees)
Conductivity - 0.35mS/cm

1345
DO - ~6mg/l
pH - 6.65
Conductivity - 0.36mS/cm

1700
pH - 6.6
Conductivity - 0.36mS/cm
TDS - 148mg/l (brief use of recently calibrated TDS meter)

1930
DO - ~6mg/l
pH - 6.6
KH - 0.9 (German degrees)
Conductivity - 0.35mS/cm

2140 (10 minutes post photoperiod)
DO - ~6mg/l
pH - 6.6
Conductivity - 0.35mS/cm

0145
DO - ~6mg/l
pH - 6.7
KH - 0.75 (German degrees)
Conductivity - 0.36mS/cm
This last one is slightly anomalous, the KH appears to have dropped, and will be investigated further. Intriguing that the pH has risen slightly. Initially the pH pen suggested a pH of 7, but after a further rinse in RO water, it came back with a more credible reading.

So it can be drawn from this that the tank is stable throughout the day. Further tests will be continued at greater intervals throughout the week.

Attention should be given to potential effects of Glutaraldehyde. I shall write up my thoughts when I have been able to collate more information.

Hopefully something can be drawn from this. As a species with little documentation, any information and evidence, no matter how tenuous, that can be gathered now, may provide benefit to others in the future. While a definite cause for the death of my fish will never be established, only a likely cause, I hope this information can be of use. It does go to show how hardy even the species that are described as delicate by many hobbyists actually are.

Please feel free to make suggestions and open discussion with me about this by any means possible. I intend running with as many snippets as I can grab and research. If you feel I have made any omissions, please state them so I can amend as necessary.

[Jools]

Brilliant post. It's this kind of detail that will help others. Fish we keep die, but all too often they are just labelled as "too hard" or just discarded without trying to figure out why. Sometimes vanity prevents us from sharing an event like this - but openly documenting a "failure" is verging on heroic. Well done.

More on topic, have I missed the water temp in all this?

Is it possible if the fish died quite soon after introduction that the nitrate reading is just an effect of that? I am not sure myself, just throwing it in there for discussion.

Cheers,

Jools

[lurch1000]

Hi Jools, thank you fgor your kind words. I'm not one to try and cover up mistakes, and after some initial bad advice when I first got fish, I've strived to learn what I can about keeping water, and it looks like I've horrifically dropped the ball on this occasion.

The temperature in the tank is usually 24C, if Mrs Lurch has the heating on, it can get a degree warmer but 24 is the target. I'm not sure what it can drop to overnight, but I doubt too low. My test yesterday at 0645 indicated 23.7, but I'm inclined to believe my digitherms under-read. As a side note, a recommendation for an accurate in tank thermometer would be gratefully received.

Back to your comment on the nitrate. I'm on the fence on the toxicity of nitrate, and I acknowledge Richard B here too, but I suspect the level of nitrate may have been a factor in that it pushed up the TDS and conductivity and caused osmo-regulatory problems. If the deaths can be explained, I'd be inclined to state osmo-regulatory was the cause. Investigations will be ongoing and will change the way I run my tank, that's for sure.

[CoryWally]

I echo Jools' sentiment. A great account of an unfortunate incident.

Any news back from the retailer on the fate of the remaining Acestridium?

Cheers,
Mark.

[lurch1000]

No, no news on the others that were sold (I understand that two further had been sold). The news of the demise of mine seemed to be a surprise, especially after such a short period.

[MatsP]

That's a good write-up. I know one other buyer of these (no not me, although I was tempted). As far as I know they are still doing fine.

--
Mats

[lurch1000]

Be interesting to know his stats. Reckon you could nudge him in the direction of this thread? If not, I'd be happy to PM you my email address (although I'm sure you can access it!) so I can add to my notes here.

[MatsP]

I can try...

--
Mats

[MatsP]

There are apparently three left in the shop still. [I was told they were all sold, I can only assume someone "backed out" after having reserved them].

--
Mats

[lurch1000]

I heard there may have been two.

Either way, little way off being ready to add any more yet, if I have any more of these at all that is.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Is it possible if the fish died quite soon after introduction that the nitrate reading is just an effect of that? I am not sure myself, just throwing it in there for discussion.

I think that may well be the answer. Planted tank guru Tom Barr has done some work on adding KNO3 to planted tanks and has found that adding even high levels of inorganic NO3 doesn't cause damage to even sensitive fish. His view is that high nitrate is only a problem when it is the "smoking gun" that indicates high levels of NH3 and NO2 that preceded it.

I think the idea of testing during the day is really good, and does take away some of the guess-work, conductivity is a good measure because you can buy a relatively cheap meter that you can dip in and get an accurate and repeatable reading with.

I'm not convinced about some of the other the results however. If you look at the pH and KH results, with very little dKH you will inevitably get big swings in the pH during the photoperiod, due to the carbonate ~ CO2 equilibrium. When the plants are photosynthesising the tank water will be fully, or nearly fully, oxygenated, CO2 will be depleted and the pH will rise. This happens naturally every day in soft vegetated waters, you even get it in the photic zone of the sea even with huge reservoirs of carbonate buffering.

cheers Darrel

[wrasse]

I have to say, I'm not as fascinated as you clearly are, by in-depth water chemistry. but as they say... "whatever floats your boat."

You are using inorganic nitrates and ferts to feed your plants and you state these should have no effect on fish.

In addition your water is on the cool side, no?

IMO these 3 factors are why you lost these fish. I doubt very much they ever previously experienced high nitrates of any sort, plus fertilisers. I think they are warm-water fish, to me that's above 27c. They need the same conditions you might provide a zebra pleco. No wonder they were trying to get out the tank...

-Richard

[lurch1000]

It is entirely possible the cause of the nitrate is dead fish, although I know for certain that one of the dead fish was not in the location I found it in that night. I would suspect for such an immediate and steep rise in nitrate, then I either have one seriously robust filter colony with redundancy to mop up ammonia and nitrite, or the nitrate was there before causing the salinity to rise. I don't believe that I'd not see traces of nitrite if a fish had died.

I did have a trace of nitrite once in my old Betta tank - nothing had died, other than some dieback of algae. Never saw ammonia, but nitrite rose to a trace.

I don't doubt Mr Barr's opinion on nitrate. I personally doubt that the nitrate itself (if previously present) killed the fish. However the TDS/salinity of the water may have been too big a step for them. Looking at the conductivity after the deaths, working it back, we're looking at a TDS of 200ish. That's double the level of the tank at the shop.

The tests over the 24h really surprised me, I was expecting some sort of increase in pH throughout the day, but everything being so consistent (bar the 0145 test), then I doubt some of the results, but what else can I go on? Regardless of the accuracy of the tests, I'd have expected relatively to have seen movement. If you have any thoughts to throw in to the mix on that one, I'd be happy to hear them.

I'm hoping we can get some details from MatsP about the water the other A.dichromum he knows of live in, it may well help.

Just as a thought, would two dead fish pollute a tank enough that a 50% water change managed to reset back to near where it should be? The bodies looked colourless, but not visibly degraded that I could tell. An end assumed net increase of 50ppm of nitrate equates back to an equivalent dose of 13.69ppm of ammonia.

It's all food for thought. As I said, the actual cause of death will never be actually ascertained. I'm personally leaning to osmo-regulation still, I'm not sure nitrate is a g gun, I don't blame the stuff which ever way you look at it. It got there from over-fertilising, or over feeding. The former is a likely culprit as I didn't dose at the start of that week.

Addendum for wrasse's interposed post.
It was my understanding that they preferred the cooler side rather than higher temps. Just nipped to the catelog, and even in there the temperature range is stated as 23-28, indicating 25 being a middle ground. Conversing with someone why has kept farlowella before he stated that they would often feed at or above the water line. Mine did spend time around the tank, but that corner of the tank has algae as I leave it there.

I'll go back to my previously stated points about ferts/nitrates. IMO, they're not bad or lethal, but by adding extra dissolved solids to the tank, one increases the salinity of the tank which will have a knock on for the osmo-regulation of a fish.

I'd wager that if the nitrates weren't high, but I had an equivalent level of another salt in the water, the outcome would most likely to have been the same. If MatsP can obtain some readings of the other A.dchromum then we'll perhaps be able to be more conclusive on the matter.

Chemistry may float my boat, but I have found it a key to understanding a lot about the aquarium, and it also means I am able to search for answers to problems using chemistry rather than purely anecdotal evidence.

[The.Dark.One]

The Evers and Seidel Baensch catfish atlas Vol 1 says 24-28 dec C, a species tank, strong current, loads of algae.

[Andrewjw]

Perhaps taking a trip to the LFS where you got them, and testing water where the remaining fish are still alive would be interesting....?

[wrasse]

Yes I doubt they are dumping nitrates and fertilisers into their tanks containing newly arrived and delicate wild fish

[MatsP]

Yes I doubt they are dumping nitrates and fertilisers into their tanks containing newly arrived and delicate wild fish

The TDS of Rare Aquatics water is around 100 ppm. I haven't tested it for nitrate, but I do know the tap-water is low in nitrate, and I very much doubt they add nitrate.

These fish come from Rio Negro drainages, and as far as I understand, the water is warm and very soft. Very low in all forms of nutrients and minerals.

But I'm not sure what killed the fish.

--
Mats

[Jools]

Were the fish dead in the tank and placed on the black bar for the photo or is that where you found them?

I don't have it to hand, but the undernoted are some localities where this species is found. Perhaps someone has that data especially around temp?

I also found this video of them in habitat. Can't tell if it's warm or not, but it looks pretty decent current.



Jools

Acestridium dichromum: Venezuela, Amazonas State: ANSP 160692,
1, 40.8 mm SL, rio Sipapo, 500 m upstream of Pendare, approx.
4º54’N 67º43’W. ANSP 161494, 6+2 c&s, 34.6-50.7 mm SL, outflow
stream from series of morichales ca 5.0 km from mouth of rio Pamoni,
approx. 2º48’N 65º53’W. ANSP 187061, 2+1 c&s, 32.2-38.8 mm
SL, rio Sipapo, ca 6 km upstream of Pendare, approx. 4º51’N
67º43’W. MCP 35016, 3, 37.4-56.1 mm SL, caño Cucurito, ca 1 km
upstream mouth of río Autana, approx. 4º44’N 67º41’W. FMNH
103326, 6 paratypes, 27.2-57.4 mm SL caño Cucurito ca 1 km
above mouth in rio Autana, 4º43’48"N 67º37’12"W. FMNH 105326,
1, 59.8 mm SL, caño Curcurito ca. 1 km above mouth in rio Autana,
4º43’48"N 67º37’12"W. FMNH 105327, 3, 34.4-39.3 mm SL, rio
Autana at Playa Cucurito in front of caño Cucurito, 4º43’42"N
67º38’07"W. INHS 27642, 1 paratype, 52.9 mm SL, caño Topocho
at bridge on highway between Puerto Paez and Puerto Ayacucho,
5º56’39"N 67º22’09"W. INHS 40427, 1 allotype, 44.7 mm SL,
Pozo de Lucas, 7 km behind San Fernando de Atabapo, approx.
4º2’N 67º42’W. USNM 269949, 25, 27.0-52.0 mm SL, caño Chola,
where crossed by road from San Carlos de Rio Negro to Solano,
approx. 1º58’N 67º00’W

[mummymonkey]

Were these fish quarantined at all? I also think this species requires a dedicated tank, set up specifically for it.

[lurch1000]

...a species tank, strong current, loads of algae....

Two outta three

Yes I doubt they are dumping nitrates and fertilisers into their tanks containing newly arrived and delicate wild fish

I think we get your point now. I didn't have to bother sharing any information on this fish, good or bad. I'm aware of what's gone wrong, and it's me that dropped the ball. I get it. Unless you have anything constructive to add or suggest like every other contributor has to this thread then it's probably best you say nothing. I've never been so irritated by anyone in my life. I was hoping that the purpose of publishing the information would help people understand the species a little further, if only what not to do. Very much established ferts are not suitable around this species now. Thank you.

Perhaps taking a trip to the LFS where you got them, and testing water where the remaining fish are still alive would be interesting....?

Answered by MatsP. 90 TDS I believe.

...These fish come from Rio Negro drainages, and as far as I understand, the water is warm and very soft. Very low in all forms of nutrients and minerals....

I believe the Orinoco basin too.

Were the fish dead in the tank and placed on the black bar for the photo or is that where you found them?
...
I also found this video ...

I found them on the substrate, one at the back, one at the front of the tank in plain view. The brace was a convenient place for the photo. I can't get the video up (on mobile) but I will have a look later.

Were these fish quarantined at all? I also think this species requires a dedicated tank, set up specifically for it.

I don't have suitable QT facilities at the moment, long story, but end result, they went directly in to the main tank.