how large do L. heterodon get?

[mjlfish]

Leporacanthicus heterodon get? I would like to buy some, the guy has 4 inchers but says they are only half grown and hard to sex. I really would like to just get a couple pair, not a whole colony. Any input would be appreciated.

[Birger]

Looking on the data page

Leporacanthicus heterodon

it says 4.1 inch ...that is standard length, meaning from the tip of the snout to the base of the caudal(tail) fin.

Birger

[mjlfish]

Yes, I saw that as well, but it seems somtimes the lengths are off on some of the fish.

[Jools]

I don't have any good reason to think the SL on this species is incorrect, it appears to be the smallest of the genus.

Yes, I saw that as well, but it seems somtimes the lengths are off on some of the fish.

Could you expand? Specifically which ones you think are off?

Cheers,

Jools

[MatsP]

I think L. heterodon can actually grow a little bit larger, but they don't grow very large for Leporacanthicus - I have a friend who has some that I've yet to see, but are supposedly 8" (total length). That would mean more like 6" in size.

Bear in mind that we're quite conservative [as in, we like to see proof before changing the cat-elog] when it comes to sizes, as well as a lot of people measure fish by total length, not standard length.

If you know of species that have the wrong size [in either direction], then please let us know - particularly if you have a nice clear photo with a ruler next to the fish...

--
Mats

[Jools]

One of mine, which is 9 years old, is photographed in this months PFK. How big would you say that was from the picture?

Jools

[MatsP]

One of mine, which is 9 years old, is photographed in this months PFK. How big would you say that was from the picture?

Jools

Since I haven't seen the picture, I don't know... ;)

I'll see if I can get matey to take a photo of his.

--
Mats

[Barbie]

I have at least two that are well over 5" and might well be 6" SL. I will try to get one of the larger males out and photograph it over a ruler. I got them from INXS 5 years or more ago as adults and they grew quite a bit after that. I have been intending to move them into different digs, so I guess now would be a good time to get that done.

Barbie

[mjlfish]

I don't have any good reason to think the SL on this species is incorrect, it appears to be the smallest of the genus.

Yes, I saw that as well, but it seems somtimes the lengths are off on some of the fish.

Could you expand? Specifically which ones you think are off?

Cheers,

Jools

Jools, I think by the input that has come in on this already, there is no need to expand. Some fish achieve larger size then what is listed, which is why I asked about others who may have kept these fish and what their own experiences with size was. In my own experience, I had a pair of 183 that achieved nearly 10 inches before the died. I was really surprised by that, but just took it to mean that, just like people, there are no standard sizes. No offense was intended, just my own observation. Now back to my topic. Can they be reliably sexed at 4 inches?

[Barbie]

Reliably sexed? I don't know. A lot of times out of condition groups look to be more juvenile males than female. I am not a good one to ask though, as I tend to buy larger groups so I can be sure of a good mix.

I would like to see pics of those L183, also, as I've owned some for more than 10 years that never got over 5" SL, and that was a huge old male. My L182 are huge, but L183 just never got anywhere near that.

I will still get Jools some pics of my L. heterodon for the CatElog though . I need to do some for the presentation I've promised to give anyway.

Barbie

[MatsP]

In my own experience, I had a pair of 183 that achieved nearly 10 inches before the died.

I expect that's becuase they weren't the real

Ancistrus dolichopterus

- do you have any picture of these fish with the dorsal fin raised and clearly visible?
There is a whole range of fish that look fairly similar, that are at least sometimes sold as L183 (for example

L182

, which does grow much bigger).

Now back to my topic. Can they be reliably sexed at 4 inches?

If they are well fed and in good condition, yes - if they have been kept in a wholesalers with "not quite the right food" for a few months, perhaps not. Headshape should make it fairly obvious. Mine are a fair bit less than 4" (around 2.5-3"), and they are just starting to show some signs of which is which.

--
Mats

[Jools]

Look forward to the pics.

Cheers

Jools

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I think my biggest male is between 7- 8 inch!

I have a image of him on some tread that I cant find right now!

[mjlfish]

Look forward to the pics.

Cheers

Jools

Jools wish I could show you pics of the pair when they were that large, but if you had read the entire thread you would see the part where they died. I do however have pics of some of their fry.

<a href="http://s75.beta.photobucket.com/user/mj ... 1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/ ... 183s-1.jpg" border="0" alt="183's photo 183s-1.jpg"/></a>

[Jools]

Hi Matt

I'm sorry, a bit of confusion has crept in here. What I meant was I look forward to pics of

Leporacanthicus heterodon

(from anyone, but the comment was aimed @Barbie). In terms of the

Ancistrus

, those fry look great. Is it possible they are

L071

and not

Ancistrus dolichopterus

? What are you using to determine ID?

You suggested above that some data on the site was inaccurate regarding the max. SL of other species (using the plural) but I may have picked that up wrong. But it is really important to me that the data is as accurate as possible. So, if you find the time to expand on your comments I genuinely would like to look into any inaccuracies that may exist.

I see I have a pm from you which I'll respond to in due course.

Cheers

Jools

[mjlfish]

Jools, I guess there is a bit of confusion going on. I used pc info on the amount of soft dorsal rays when the fish came in. Pc is just about the only site with as much info as there is for me. As for expanding on what I mean with size, it seems that some fish get bigger than others of their own species. May just be diet or genetics I don't know. I have however raised many of the fry, and some friends did as well, and they have all stayed near the sl suggested by pc. Usually getting no larger than about 5 inches total length. Funny thing as well, the male who was the largest, maintained his whiteseam until death. One of the prettiest plecos I ever owned. I inherited it from a good friend pleconutbuck, after his health made him take a step back from the hobby. If I remember correctly these fish were nearly 14 years in captivity.

[monkiecat]

iv seen the ones that matts is talking about, they are 8 inch .
I was up there to buy the geos...
they are huge!

[MatsP]

The following two images are a shot of a L. heterodon and my phone, and a copy of the phone moved around to measure the fish better.

According to my calculations/measurements, the phone is 530 pixels, and Samsung's website says my phone is 112mm. The distance across the two phones overlapping is 790 pixels. 790/530*112 = 166mm.

I do admit that the photo isn't particularly great for identification purposes... But there aren't many Leporacanthicus that are medium brown with fairly large black spots - this fish is certainly not a L263 or L. joselimaianus.

So I think we should be able to safely increase the size to, say, 165mm?

Original photo:

Phone "cloned":

Photo from Rare Aquatics' facebook page of the same fish [not necessarily the same individual, but from that batch] - posted with permission from Jo.

[mjlfish]

Excellent pics Matsp, very easy to see it is L. Heterodon. Thanks for sharing these pics.

[Barbie]

I haven't forgotten, my camera has just been in use at the shop. I hadn't thought of a cell phone picture, so maybe I'll go tape a ruler to the tank and feed and see what I can manage ;).

Barbie

[Jools]

So I think we should be able to safely increase the size to, say, 165mm?

Assuming your ID is right, yes, willing to go on trust on that one as I can't ID it firmly from your picture (mine don't have any spots anterior of the pelvic fins and look more yellow than brown - but these are transient things and the description doesn't mention the spots). Great work on showing something to scale - I've updated the cat-elog accordingly.

Cheers,

Jools

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!


I can confirm Mats info.

This male is about 20 cm (from av Swedish fish exporter, so the Id is 100%)

[Jools]

Cristoffer,

20cm TL or SL?

Cheers

Jools


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Jools,

20 cm TL

Female around 16 cm TL


Cristoffer

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I have actually an extra heterodon male, so I could catch him and measure him exactly. He is the same size as the one on the photo.

[Jools]

That would be great. While some might think I'm being rather resistant to change, it's that exact measuring that really helps keep the site as accurate as possible.

Here is another pleco I measured recently. Not a great job as it isn't straight - thought an example of how to do it badly might help!



Jools

[Simon86]

I had a group of 6 L. heterodon myself and the two biggest male were nearly 8''
Cheers Simon

[MatsP]

I had a group of 6 L. heterodon myself and the two biggest male were nearly 8''
Cheers Simon

The size has been updated to 170mm [I think Jools did that himself, but not sure]. Bearing in mind that this is standard length, so not counting the tail of the fish.

If anyone has good photos of fish that are larger than that, preferrably with a ruler/tape-measure next to the fish like Jools' photo above [I was in a busy shop when I took the photos above, so I was unable to get a tape-measure, but used my phone as a "size-guide", because I knew we had this discussion, and I found a fish that was certainly larger than the 100mm we had in the Cat-eLog.

I'm somewhat wondering, however, if there is a "large" and a "small" variety of this species [or two different species, even] that grow to different sizes. Only time will tell, I suppose.

--
Mats

[Cristoffer Forssander]

This is one of my males. Im sure that my second male is a bit larger.
But around 16-17 cm SL seemes good at the moment.

Janne Ekström knows probably for sure how large they can get.

Cristoffer

[Jools]

Thanks Cristoffer, that looks about 160mm SL and is exactly the kind of empirical data we need, I've updated the cat-elog previously to 170mm SL. The door is still very much open to any bigger ones!

Cheers,

Jools