are these Syno polli?

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 26 Nov 2003, 21:18

We have 3 of these Synos, came in as petricola which they obviously are not, but I have been taking them to be Polli or something close.

They are about 5+ plus

I would love to know for sure so I am am trying to post some picures, but I am not sure quite how to do it.

My apologies if I have got it wrong but here goes.

trying to see the humeral process, not good pics I know.

The teeth are orange but not close together like Dhonti.

Sorry about the mess up, I hope I have it this time.

Thanks

Post by **Silurus** » 26 Nov 2003, 21:45

The images are not showing up. Seems that the urls do not appear to be complete.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 26 Nov 2003, 22:32

Hiopefully it is ok now, I must have "instructed" the link to my home computer.

Far too technical for me !!

Sorry

Post by **Rusty** » 26 Nov 2003, 22:38

Don't want to rush to judgment here, but I don't think these guys are polli for a few reasons. Mouth is too narrow, and the general profile doesn't look right. Probably some sort of petricola variant, but it may be a dhonti. A shot of the head with the humeral process would be useful.

Rusty

Post by **Dinyar** » 26 Nov 2003, 22:51

I agree with the eminent Prof. Rusty that these are most likely "petricola complex" (one of several undescribed species of lake Tanganyika Synodontis that are close to S. petricola but are not S. petricola), with S. dhonti an outside possibility.

Dinyar

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 26 Nov 2003, 23:35

I must admit that I ruled out the Petricola aspect as there was absolutely no trace of a white spine at all on the dorsal .

Are there "races " of Petricola without this white spine as well ?

The ventral region being dark with darker spots also confused the issue for me and when I saw the Dhonti lower teeth being closely grouped I thought this was unlike our specimens as well.

The size of the fish confuses the issue further for me as I had never seen Petricolas to this size..

The mouth appears quite wide to me too, so now I am quite confused !!

It always seems so (too) important to have a label for all of our fishes I guessI will have to try and get a better picture of the humeral process tomorrow.

Thanks.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 26 Nov 2003, 23:45

I also believe this is a variant of petricola but as you can see it clearer than us have a look at S. acanthomias.

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 26 Nov 2003, 23:58

Hmnn, you make me doubt everything now !!

The acanthomias that I believe are Acanthomias are very different to these fish and are they not longer and more, slender fish with spikes on the humeral process.? possibly a greyer fish a nd smaller spots ?

I am going to have to take some more pics tomorrow, I am sure.... time to get my beauty sleep !!

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 27 Nov 2003, 00:04

Acanthomias are very different to these fish and are they not longer and more, slender fish with spikes on the humeral process.?

yes the species characteristics are the spiny, backwards hooklets on the shoulder bone. (i couldn't quite see them well enough, for some reason my computer has put pink lines down my pictures?)

Post by **Rusty** » 27 Nov 2003, 00:44

I'm almost 100% sure this is a Tanganyikan syno and not acanthomias.

Rusty

Post by **Silurus** » 27 Nov 2003, 00:52

I am 100% sure it is not S. acanthomias.

Post by **Rusty** » 27 Nov 2003, 01:04

Monty wrote:I must admit that I ruled out the Petricola aspect as there was absolutely no trace of a white spine at all on the dorsal .

Are there "races " of Petricola without this white spine as well ?

Yes. Many of the petricola races lack the white spine.

Monty wrote:The size of the fish confuses the issue further for me as I had never seen Petricolas to this size..

What size are they? The true petricola get to around 4-5 inches, whereas the commonly encountered dwarf species stays much smaller.

Monty wrote:The mouth appears quite wide to me too, so now I am quite confused !!

Compare your fish to this:

That is a wide polli mouth.

Rusty

Post by **Dinyar** » 27 Nov 2003, 16:10

Rusty wrote:[quote="Monty"Are there "races " of Petricola without this white spine as well ?

Yes. Many of the petricola races lack the white spine.[/quote]

Probably undescribed species and not "races".

Dinyar

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 27 Nov 2003, 17:37

They don't remind me of anything like petricola at all....

But they sure as heck look like juvenile dhonti's!
Those orange teeth got me in the wrong direction, my polli's have very orange teeth too, but a wide mouth as well....

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 27 Nov 2003, 18:55

I have been taking a few more pics, hope they help.

As a matter of interest the largest is 11cm SL and 14 cm TL

please excuse my photography !!

As a matter of interest I checked with the importer who tells me that they were from Burundi.

Maybe that helps , if it is correct !!

Waiting to see what you come up with now !!

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 27 Nov 2003, 19:25

Synodontis dhonti(Juvenile) is my best guess agree with SG.

Post by **Dinyar** » 28 Nov 2003, 03:18

I doubt that it is Synodontis dhonti. But you can decide for yourself...

Synodontis dhonti

Subject fish

Synodontis dhonti

Subject fish

The subject fish may look very similar to S. dhonti, but it's not identical.

Here's a picture of a fish that may provide a closer match, called "S. sp. cf. polli" in the Image Library:

Not only do S. dhonti, S. tanganaicae, S. petricola and S. polli share many common features, but there are also undoubtedly several additional undescribed species of Tanganyika Synodontis that look very similar to these four species.

The situation may not be dissimilar to that of cichlid species in L. Tanganyika. As just one example, Neolamprologus sexfasciatus and N. tretocephalus look almost identical but are distinct species. These two are allopatric, but there are also examples of very similar sympatric species.

I suspect that if and when Heok Hee ever turns his attention to L. Tanganyika, we may end up with almost as many Synodontis species as cichlid species in the lake!

Dinyar

PS: If I had to label this fish in my pet store, I would call it "Synodontis 'panther': New, undescribed species from Lake Tanganyika!"

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 28 Nov 2003, 10:09

Now that is a great idea !!!

With effect from now ... new label SYNODONTIS"PANTHER" undecribed species from Lake Tanganyika

I dont suppose that justifies a price increase !!!

Seriously , thanks for the opinions , I found it very intresting, a little more involved than we normally get time for.

(poor old retailers !!) .........aaaaahhhhh!

Post by **Rusty** » 28 Nov 2003, 22:46

A few more pictures of our fish that looks like the fish in question: (click for bigger version)

Is it the same fish? Note the granulose head.

Rusty

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 28 Nov 2003, 23:24

I would call it "Synodontis 'panther': New, undescribed species from Lake Tanganyika!"

Synodontis camelopardalis goes by that common name

but least we know it isn't that one

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 28 Nov 2003, 23:25

I really dont know, I am trying to see the humeral process and it looks to me as if your fish has a longer "spike" on it than my specimen, or is this just down to age and size?

I am sorry I cant do the clever bit and post both pics together !!

Are there any other angles that you would like to see ?

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 29 Nov 2003, 10:05

ALL the angles!

NOW I've got serious doubts though....

I've just looked through Rusty's pics on his homepage ( http://www.lalkaka.com )

and my polli's don't look like his

They look like some (not all!!) of these!
or better, a mixture of them, the confusion gets only worse....

The mouth that Dinyar posts in his last post looks exactly like mine, mine have more "orange" teeth.
BUT like Rusty's TRUE polli's, mine have smaller spots, a reddish brown - not grey- background and very obvious "coppery" eyes.

They LACK the granulated head (!), the skin on the head has the same struckture as the rest of the fish.

and I'm quite sure they're all from Burundi; caught in the vicinity of Pierere Brichards' exporting station in Nyanza Lac.

Post by **Rusty** » 29 Nov 2003, 15:26

Huh? I always thought this guy was an example of a real polli, with no doubts.

It always seemed as though polli was the only clearly defined syno species in the lake! Those guys don't have a granular head.

Rusty

Monty · Post by **Monty** » 30 Nov 2003, 00:20

Well I have some more pictures to try and help

Taken today of the head and humeral process, no granular head and the colour is representative of the three fish.

The next one shows the teeth again

this third one shows the top view of the head.

The other thing I must mention is that the smallest of the three lookes like a female , it is decidedly plump and has noticeably shorter fins ... at about 9cmSL

The largest of the trio at 11cm (4 1/2") SL looks to be an older fish not a young adult which coupled with the female being roed up at her size must mean close to maximum size fish ruling out Dhonti I guess.

I think I have exhausted all of this with this one now and so I await your conclusions .

Greggo · Post by **Greggo** » 03 Dec 2003, 18:36

The eyes of the above photos are too large to be S. petricola and the dorsal is short as well. This looks like a S. polli type to me.

There seems to be geographical variation in S. polli, just like with S. petricola. I have just seen a recent import of over 200 lake Synodontis that were collected over an enormous stretch of coast line from the Congo, Zambia and Tanzania. There are fish in this shipment that are beyond classification. There appears to be about 5 different "polli" types in it. Some are up to 7 inches long, others are metallic green, with another being stockier and golden colored. There were some "petricola" types that are greenish gold, with others that look like a mullti/petricola hybrid. There is an oddball fish in the import that has characteristics of S multipunctatus/dhonti/polli all mixed in one.

Unfortunately, the collector did not break down collection locations. I'm going begin photographing these fish as there are undoubtedly undescribed species in it. The whole lake Synodontis species are in great need of revison. Some ambitious scientist could spent a lifetime doing so. After what I have just seen, I'm no longer going to worry about what species a L.T. Synodontis is and just call it a "Cool Looking Fish".

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 03 Dec 2003, 19:43

This looks like a S. polli type to me.

What makes you say that i am 99% sure it isn't polli.