Unknown synodontis

[kieranvowles]

Hi there,
I'm new to forums so please bear with me, I'm looking for an ID on some synodontis that I recently purchased from my lfs, they have been sold to me as decora's but they have no barring on the caudal fin or branching on the maxillary barbels they also lack any length on the dorsal fin. After searching the web for a possible ID, I'm aware that I may have bought a form of hybrid but I'm not sure what's been crossed with what.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jools]

Hi Keiran,

Welcome to the site. These are not

Synodontis decora

. I'd suggest they are farmed hybrids.

Jools

[Richard B]

These are indeed hybrids.

It is hard to say what the species are that have been used to create it & it is not one of the forms I've encountered before. Although I have no evidence to support this, I have a feeling this may be a '2nd string' hybrid (where an existing hybrid is crossed with genuine species; or another different hybrid for that matter)

[kieranvowles]

Hi Richard,
I found this image whilst trawling the net, it's a multipunctata mixed with a notata, and it seems to be a very close match to my little ones. What do you think?

[Birger]

Could of also been crossed with

Synodontis notata

or similar to this...you should prepare for a fish that has the potential to get to 10 inches.

Just wondering on their behaviour...active or hide a lot?? (look active)

Birger

[Richard B]

The pic you've posted of the notata x multipunctata is very close to your fish but I think shows some differences. (These may be just due to size/growth of the individuals in question). We cannot be sure without additional information that notata & multipunctata are indeed the species used to create the fish in the second posting as there is so much misidentification on the net. I do think that your fish has notata in the mix somewhere though as Birger has pointed out (a 10" possibility).

There is so much unknown about how the hybridisation thing is going that it is such a grey area to comment on. Eg if you cross a male notata with a female multipunctata does the resultant fish look the same as the cross of a female notata & male multipunctata?

[kieranvowles]

Thanks for the replys, the fish were very active the day they went in the tank but now do most of there work on the night shift. As I bought these as decora's I'm already prepared for 10inch cats although the growth should slow down after about 4-5inches . . .shouldn't it??? As you've said there are so many possibilities as to what my little cats could be, so I'm just going to watch and try to link there behaviours to possible matches I.e notata. I'll post my findings as it may help somebody else in my position.

Thanks for the support guys.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Welcome to the Planet! Looks like you know your synos, which is great!

Yours looks a bit like my Angie - my ID questions from back when I was starting with the synos: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... it=syno+ID

From paying close attention to innumerable syno ID questions here and a few other forums for several years (which has not, however, made me into any sort of expert), two things that are consistent are that
-- hybrids abound and keep growing in number and diversity and IMO have exceeded the offer of the genuine species, that is if one walks into any random LFS and blindly picks a syno, the chances nowadays became more than 50% it would be a hybrid (perhaps at least on the US east coast, which is what I know from experience);
-- ID-ing these is almost always fruitless - laymen like me are usually clueless; experts and syno-buffs like Richard B and Birger above, tend not to want to make wild unsupported guesses as to the parent lineage because there is really not a good need in that to care for them - that's their message it would appear to me. They will correct me/augment me if I am found wrong/wanting.

On a personal level, most of the syno aficionados, if not all, strongly dislike everything that came about with hybrid syno appearance. The reasons abound - from messing with mother nature to cruel, inhumane ways the synos are produced, to polluting the hobby, to easthetics, etc. etc. etc.

Racoll (one of the ichthyologist members here) has been doing some DNA studies on hybrid synos with one of the goals of reverse engineering, if I am not mistaken. I hope he will chime in. I have not seen a summary of his findings, perhaps in part because DNA analysis itself has its caveats and limitations in the result interpretation, or maybe I missed it, so someone will point it out, hopefully.

Threads like these may help you a bit further: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =8&t=28659

[kieranvowles]

I agree that hybrids are not ideal, I would have much rather have taken home some lovely decora's, (and yes I should have spoted straight away that they were not the real deal epecially at the price I paid) but now I have these little guys, (its not their fault they're hybrids at the end of the day)I quite like them, so I will see how they get on in. If the develope into huge man eaters then I'll just have to find them a new home.

[racoll]

Racoll (one of the ichthyologist members here) has been doing some DNA studies on hybrid synos with one of the goals of reverse engineering, if I am not mistaken. I hope he will chime in. I have not seen a summary of his findings, perhaps in part because DNA analysis itself has its caveats and limitations in the result interpretation, or maybe I missed it, so someone will point it out, hopefully.

I presented all my findings in the big hybrid thread that you linked to. In case you missed it, you can download the article at http://dx.doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.96149.

Essentially, I could identify the maternal species of the synos, but not the paternal species. Identifying the paternal species worked nicely for some other fishes, but unfortunately I ran out of time optimising it for the synos.

[kieranvowles]

Welcome to the Planet! Looks like you know your synos, which is great!

Yours looks a bit like my Angie - my ID questions from back when I was starting with the synos: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... it=syno+ID

Thank you Viktor for the welcome,

I know a little bit about syno's as I have kept them in the past a couple of multipunctata that sadly didn't like a house move.

I have looked at the pic of your Angie and mine do look a lot like that, just a bit smaller 2-3inches at the moment. How are you keeping your little one happy, what's the behaviour like and how big is it now? Any info you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Kieran.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Hi Kieran!

Wish I could be helpful but my Angie has always been housed with a borderline insane community of other synos and other fish. So, my experience may not mean much at all.

She's been a good citizen and never participated in any of the few squabbles that some of my larger euptera and an angelica had while establishing and enforcing a pecking order. Unfussy eater - I have not noticed Angie displaying any preference towards the types of foods offered (versus other synos) - they all ate various pellets and flakes, seafood, shrimp, fish, krill, plankton, spirulina, etc., perhaps with a preference to dry foods.

As almost all my synos, she'd hide most of the day time with a few showings here and there and then does come out for dinner at sunset. Swims a lot at night. My water has been varied from average with neutral pH to hard and slightly alkaline - I have not noticed she cared much.

She is a survivor - I've had huge losses during a move from upstate NY to FL and she is one of those that are still around. She has been in a 500 gal semi-outdoor pond for 2 years, so I see only glimpses of her. I'd quesstimate she is about 8"-9" TL right now. Sometimes, her pond water dips into mid-60-ies or heats up to mid-80-ies - she does not seem to mind much but with her being in the pond, I can't be completely sure of how she takes it. Hopefully, she will be back in one of my tanks within this year.

She's been with me since early 2010, roughly 1 year in Rochester, NY and 2 years here. I must have gotten her at about 4", perhaps 1-2 years old.

[kieranvowles]

Thanks for that Viktor,

Any info helps, I have found my litttle guys will also eat anything that goes in the tank, they're very shy at the moment and only ever come out at night. I hope mine are as easy to keep as your one, she sound like a dream Syno. What's her colouration now she's nearly 10 inches, has it changed alot from when you first got her?

Thanks again.

Kieran.

[Viktor Jarikov]

The pleasure is mine.

Not much. Same color, same contrast. The spots moved and increased in number but not drastically, perhaps doubled.

I think some experts guessed (and only guessed) when I first got it (just as Birger said above w.r.t. your fish) it has notata in the pedigree. Looked like a sensible guess to me.

[kieranvowles]

That's what I thought, I've loosely based my approach to caring for these guys on the notata but as they're in a Malawi tank it's not 100% accurate, but most syno's are very accommodating when it comes to fitting in to a tank no matter what it is.

I would just like to say as a new user to the world of forums I have found the whole experiance brillaint, so thank you for all the feed back and help, it's nice knowing if I have a question somebody will take the time to answer it.

Kieran