Breeding Longfin Bristlenose...

[CanadianGuy]

Magnum4
If you are going to quote me then make sure you read what I wrote before you use it and don't edit it to mean something else...

The quote magnum4 used in reference to domestic strains of discus:

If you look into it you will realize that Shane has his facts confused regarding wilds and domestic strains...

This is what I actually said:

Angelfish are a perfect example!...If you look into it you will realize that Shane has his facts confused regarding wilds and domestic strains...

I said nothing about discus...

and in regards to the question I asked:
CanadianGuy:

Has it ever occurred to you that just maybe those that breed longfin Bristlenose and other so called hybrids....might be trying to improve on the shortcomings(if there are any) of these fish???

Magnum4:

Have you got any examples of any successful hybrids with regards to health? until then NO i haven't.

First off...They are not hybrids...
and yes...domestic angelfish are much hardier and easier to keep in an aquarium than wild strains are...

Magnum4 wrote:

Have you got any examples of any successful hybrids with regards to health? until then NO i haven't.

Try being a little more open minded...if these fish are weaker and live shorter lives(which I believe to be completely untrue...tho I am sure there are some exceptions) then WHY wouldn't you stop to consider that breeders of these fish are trying to improve the strains health and longevity?? Why are you so bent on telling these people they are wrong?...why not support them in providing a healthier, stronger fish to the fish keeping public???
Try to hear all the facts before you push your beliefs on someone else...

Magnum4 wrote:

Catfish lover (explain the name?)

Who are you to question wether he loves catfish or not?!?!?...just because he thinks differently than you doesn't mean he cares any less about catfish...or any fish, than you yourself do!!!

That has to be the most ignorant statment I've seen on here...

James

[Happy]

I bet all of you purists are all doing selective breeding. Don't you cull all of the fish that have some sort abnormality are were too small (you certainly don't use them for your breeding stock). What would happen to humans if we were culled are not allowed to breed because we didn't meet the standard qualifications of human beings? Animals have been selectively bred for centuries just consider dogs and horses. I say live and let live and get off of your high horse.

[MC]

This one is a hot subject indeed. I intend not to intentionally flame anyone.

First off...They are not hybrids...

I am not an expert, but can you please provide valid scientific information to prove that these fish are indeed not hybrids?

How do you know that the fish you intend to purchase are not indeed a cross of two species. While they may both fall in the same Family and Genus, you may indeed have a species cross.

Regardless, of whether something is a hybrid, line bred, man-made whatever, and personal tastes aside, may I ask why you would like to breed these fish? Is it for the purpose of re-selling them? Or for personal consumption? I am just curious to know.

We can all argue until we are blue in the face over potentially touchy subjects. I have to agree with Jools, I believe he stated that the more people tend to know about the Scientific classification of any species, the more respect they have for the diversity in nature. Did you realise, I (and you) for that matter, can alter the course of evolution (please don't take this comment out of context, I am not saying this to create a religion vs evolution argument) by line-breeding, hybridising, selective breeding. To me I find that kind of a scary thought. To be able to undo something that has taken years to develop.

Tank raised fish, after each generation will develop their own adaptions to living in captivity, whether that be size, variation in fin shape and size. Traits, will change, it is how animals adapt and survive.

To the couple of people that made comment about selective breeding of humans, it is already happening. It is another subject, and this is not the correct forum.

I guess what it all boils down to, is this:

We 'can' keep what 'we' want, we 'can' breed what 'we' like, however, it does not necessarily make it 'right' or 'wrong'. As 'right' and 'wrong' are merely the way an individual perceives them.

Edit: Oh and one more thing, on Lake Victoria, please do a little more research before sprouting that the devastation caused to the fish populations was the hobbyists fault. There is a lot of information available about this, http://www.google.coml will provide you with more then you need to know. The fact that some species are now only availble in captivity, is not a valid argument for saying the hobbyist was responsible.

[CanadianGuy]

MC wrote:

Oh and one more thing, on Lake Victoria, please do a little more research before sprouting that the devastation caused to the fish populations was the hobbyists fault.

I said that the hobbyist CONTRIBUTED to what has happened to the fish of Lake Victoria! I did NOT say it was completely their fault! Read it again...
Do you have proof that commercial harvesting of cichlids from, Lake Victoria did not have anything to do with their eventual extinction in the wild?? Until then you cannot tell me that I don't have my facts straight...it seems to be you that doesn't have his facts straight...

Try http://www.yahoo.com Great search engine there...should be more than enough info there for you...

It's funny how the people that think only wild strains should be kept, and that domestic strains are wrong, are the same ones that don't think commercial harvesting of fish for the aquarium trade endangers the wild populations of these same fish...you can't honestly think that you aren't contributing to the possible extinction of a fish species if you are supporting them being taken from their habitat in alarming numbers...one simply has to look to the past to see what happened when man thought this way before...

James

[CanadianGuy]

This thread has become pointless...I've gleaned all the useful information that I am going to...

It has degenerated into a continuous "I'm right/you're wrong" type of arguement...no one is going to win this...and all I see is it turning down an even darker road...and I can see no end approcahing anytime soon...

We have a "pure strain" side that wants to keep only pure strains...and a "domestic strain" side that thinks selective breeding for specific traits does not harm/improves certain fish...one isn't going to change the others mind...not here at least

If somehow the mood of this thread can be lifted I will gladly continue this disscussion...otherwise I don't wish to continue arguing and rehashing the same thing over and over...

James

[Catfish Lover]

Most fish taken from their natural habitats die before reaching the hobbyists tanks.

It may cost the lives of 3 gold nuggets to get one safely in your tank. I don't know what the percentages are with the L numbers but they are high and may be a lot higher than that.

Some importers have stopped doing it because of the high losses. I won't sell certain ones because of the high losses after I get them here. They come in so shabby, it's hard to acclimate them and I won't pass that on to the store or the hobbyist.

[MC]

It is quite obvious to me that all you want to do is argue. Did you get up on the wrong side of your bed or something?

I find your method of discussion quite patronising and down right rude.

Please feel free to explain what you type, instead of simply making broad sweeping open ended statements.

I did ask some questions, which I thought were not unreasonable ones. You chose not to answer them.

My apologies for asking some reasonable questions, it is users like you who make boards like this not so nice places to post discussion. It is quite obvious you don't really want to have a discussion. Believe it or not, you opinion is not shared by everyone. Continual argumentative rebuttel only generates more dislike for a user. I didn't feel I attacked you in anyway.

Do you have proof that commercial harvesting of c*****ds from, Lake Victoria did not have anything to do with their eventual extinction in the wild?? Until then you cannot tell me that I don't have my facts straight...it seems to be you that doesn't have his facts straight..

Either way, you could put your money where your mouth is, and prevent this from happening to further species. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... n_list.php

I am not sure whether the catfish world has similar conservation movements happening, maybe one of the mods or admins could elaborate if there is.

Now, as a new poster to this thread, I would have thought you would extend me the same courtesy as any other person who first reads a thread and asks some genuine non-inflammatory questions, instead you chose to attack my creditibilty, I dislike this. Please re-think your approach, you are not making any friends this way.

[CanadianGuy]

MC,

I apologize for not answering your one question...I am interested in breeding the longfin bristlenose for my own use and for resale...

If you found my response to you rude in any way I apologize...it was not intended that way...

I found your statement that I should research something before I "spout" it off to be rude and un-needed...you attacked MY credibility and my offense to that may have come across in my post...

according the research I have done previously none of my statements were untrue...I was merely clearing up the confusion you had regrading my previous post...

Again I apologize if you felt attacked...that was not my intention as your post was much more open-minded and friendly than some previous...(sans the last comment)

I hope I have cleared this up...

James

[Herman63]

Sorry James but I have to put my 2 cents in.

I can't see the problem if a hobbiest wants to keep so called hybrids doesn't that mean less wild fish needed from the wild....

The domesticated angelfish probly has lessoned the number of wild altums taken from the wild and isn't that a good thing?

As far as the Longfinned Bristlenose it may do the same thing for some fancy L-numbers.

I own both Longfinned Bristlenoses, L-158's and also a few fancy L-numbers and enjoy them all equally.

Just some thoughts, Herman63

[Jools]

Can I re-iterate the point (for those who missed it), that varieties created by selective breeding are not the same thing as hybrids. We are not debating hybrids here (thank God) but selective breeding for "attractive" traits such as long fins.

I hold to my view that selective breeding is OK provided the fishes vitality is not detrimentally affected. I mean, a large %age of fishes we buy as pets are in this category of being "altered" by selective breeding. I only have a problem, for example, if the long finned Ancistrus variety can't swim right, is a less prolific spwner etc.

On hybrids I agree entirely with Rusty and that HAS to be a reasonable position, no?

Jools

[Jools]

The domesticated angelfish probly has lessoned the number of wild altums taken from the wild and isn't that a good thing?

How so? If I want an altum I have to buy a wild one as they have not been bred in captivity. Are you saying that if I wanted an altum but were offered tank raised scalares then the majority would go off the idea of the wild caught fish?

For many, many commonly available species fish farming is the answer and it may seem logical that if we buy captive bred fish then wild fish will do better, but this argument doesn't take into account the wider pressures on the fishes habitat.

The collection of fish for the ornamental fish trade in virtually all cases is the least of the plethora of threats facing wild fish stocks. The spread of awareness of the commercial value of these fish to/via the ornamental fish market (responsibly harvested and exported) is one of the things than can help save habitat by attaching a value to it that was not previously there.

Worried about dissapearing l-numbers? Check out the Brazilian Government's plan for the huge dam on the Xingu at Altamira - now that IS a hot topic.

Jools

[Herman63]

Jools,

My point was if there were no domesticated angelfish,and you wanted an angelfish you would have to buy a wild angelfish. There would always be hobbiest that wanted wild but the general public just wants an angelfish.

What if all the domesticated angelfish were replaced by wild ones?

As far as the longfinned bristlenose I see no problems with them they swim and behave just laike a normal bristlenose.

I agree about hybrids that are man made but hybrids also happen in nature which is also a part of the evolutionary process.


Herman63

[Jools]

What if all the domesticated angelfish were replaced by wild ones?

Sorry, I thought you were talking specifically about altums.

Jools

[Herman63]

Jools my fault I just reread it and I did say wild altums so sorry


Herman63

[Barbie]

OK, I SWORE I wasn't going to post again in this thread, no matter what, but here I am.

Altums are being bred in germany with great regularity. Frybabies sells F1 altums and wilds. The F1s cost MORE than the wilds, but there is a demand for them with the people that feel they'd be easier to keep. I personally would order F1's if I had water that they'd like and a tank to get them in at this point.

My only other comment on this post is that I love the people that post here and run this forum for the fact that this thread never degenerated to a name calling bunch of idiocy like 90% of threads like this turn into on other boards about cichlids and fish in general. There were misunderstandings, and apologies, and everyone is still trying to keep the human factor out of it and have a discussion.

Thank you all for that. This topic is all about preference and opinion, everyone has them, noone should expect them all to agree, and I personally think this thread has done a great job of pointing that out.

Barbie

[magnum4]

IMO one good point about this discussion is that if anyone searches for long fin bristlenose in the future then the lengh of this post should be enough to put them off, reguardless of content.

THE END. (I hope)

[stibolt]

I think it's a good idea to selectively breed humans...
People that have a long history of criminal activity should be fixed. Then they wouldn't pass it down to future generations

Hmm. . Perhaps you´re only trying to stirr things up in here. . and I know, it hasn´t much to do with breeding fishes, but I think it´s narrowminded to say, that criminal activity lies in the genes. But I must say; perhaps you should have lived 50 years ago - there was a man in Germany who shared your ideas about selective breed of humans

[Rusty]

This thread was going off on a complete tangent with the angel fish discussion, so I split it off as best I could. It can be found here.

Rusty

[Catfish Lover]

I think it's a good idea to selectively breed humans...
People that have a long history of criminal activity should be fixed. Then they wouldn't pass it down to future generations

Hmm. . Perhaps you´re only trying to stirr things up in here. . and I know, it hasn´t much to do with breeding fishes, but I think it´s narrowminded to say, that criminal activity lies in the genes. But I must say; perhaps you should have lived 50 years ago - there was a man in Germany who shared your ideas about selective breed of humans

You missed my "wink" It was dry humor. You can rest easy in your accusation of me being a Nazi.

[stibolt]

Sorry about that, Catfish Lover. . that´s perhaps the problem when people from different cultures meet. The Danish ironi is also quite difficult for foreigners to understand.

[jims2cool]

I think it's a good idea to selectively breed humans...
People that have a long history of criminal activity should be fixed. Then they wouldn't pass it down to future generations

Hmm. . Perhaps you´re only trying to stirr things up in here. . and I know, it hasn´t much to do with breeding fishes, but I think it´s narrowminded to say, that criminal activity lies in the genes. But I must say; perhaps you should have lived 50 years ago - there was a man in Germany who shared your ideas about selective breed of humans

That is the start actually Americans first had the idea of selective breeding humansit was called ugenics..we selectively steralized are own people. The Germans took the Idea from us
Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents
Thanks
2cool

[Fish Soup]

Wow, I first saw this post when there were only two replies. I wanted to add my two cents then, but being new to the fish scene I thought I'd shut up and see how it develops. Seems that many out there feel strongly one way or the other and can't accept that both sides have their merits and drawbacks.

Like I said, I'm new to the fish thing, but I have been a professional bird breeder for over 30 years and a member of the American Orchid Society for almost as long. So my credentials in the fish world may be weak, but my experience in the general category of keeping wild plants and animals in captivity is stronger than most.

First, it must be determined why a species is being kept. The two main reasons are as a repository of wild stock of endangered species (with plans to reintroduce), and for our personal enjoyment.

In the first case great effort is taken to keep the species as it is found in the wild. People that undertake this task are truly the most dedicated professionals, as many specimens are needed to keep as large a gene pools as possible. Selection of mates is were the problem occurs. Unless this is allowed to occur without our interference and with a large number of possible mates, there will always be changes as the generations become futher separated from the F0 stock. There are hundreds of examples of this in the Orchid world. It's simply human nature to cross the best to the best, then choose only the best to populate the next generation. What you end up with is a stunningly beautiful flower on a plant that can not survive without our continued care. Remember, changes that we can not see are also happening in the make up of the plant or animal. Without the filter of true natural selection it is very likely that further generations would no longer be able to be reintroduced into their original native environment, for their native environment is no longer a river but a fish tank. To Shane and the rest of these true Naturalist, I tip my hat and thank you for your efforts.

Now the "However". If we are keeping a common species just for our own enjoyment, with no possibility of re-introduction, then I see no harm in breeding for traits. I fail to see the harm that a catfish living in my tank in Philadelphia poses to the wild South American stock. If fact, the fact that I choose to purchase such a fish means that one more could stay in the Amazon. Alright, it's not a true "one for one" ratio there, but reducing strains on wild stock should always be a goal. Again, an example from the Orchid world. Although I have no hard numbers in front of me, I would guess that over 95% of the quality awards given by the AOS are awarded to hybrid plants. And were not talking about just crossing two related species. There are thousands of awarded plants that have several genera in their background. Since there is no plan, or chance, of these plants being released, what harm do they pose? Many Orchid growers and breeders keep both species and hybrids in their collection. Each is enjoyed for what it is. I personally breed many finch species. In some, color morphs do occur and can be selectively bred for. Would a white breasted Gouldian finch survive in the wild? No, probably not. But they are beautiful and I have no problem with those of us that choose to bred them in captivity. Should wild stock be maintained also? Of course. They are also beautiful and could be used to repopulate if a disaster should occur in the wild stock.

As to hybridizing, I would never do this with my birds. Not that I couldn't, or even wouldn't, in some cases. But the resulting offspring would be infertile. They only way to maintain the population would be to take more pure bred birds and cross them. This removes their genes from the next generation, as there is no next generation. Not a good use of our limited natural resources. I'm no expert on fish, and I'm not sure when, or if, mules would result in a cross, but if the offspring are healthy and carry desirable traits that can be passed along, then go for it! Anyone want to try for a Zebra pleco that feeds on algae during the day and grows to a foot? Love to have such a fish in my tank, just be sure it never makes it back to the wild.

Don

[Taratron]

"Love to have such a fish in my tank, just be sure it never makes it back to the wild. "


This is where we get some major problems.

Just last month, there was a news broadcast about people finding pirahna in AZ rivers.

Turns out there was a school of pacu in a river. Each was over a foot long.

I really wish some fish were not on the open pet shop market. Like pacus, and common plecos, and snakeheads. Pirahna. Irridescent sharks, and balas too. Black sharks. Most hobbyists just can't take care of these animals in the long term, and several think that their fish would be much happier in a "huge big pond" than a 10 gallon tank.

THAT is where we get onto shakier ground.

We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?

[Fish Soup]

True, but that is the problem with importation, not selective breeding.

Don

[Catfish Lover]

Do you know of any Tropicals that are established in AZ waters? I doubt the pacus are still alive today unless the creek is fed with a warm water spring because the water just gets to cold here in the winter.

I'm in Tucson, where are you?

[Katman]

This is the way I see
Selecitive breeding of Humans. How should we do it ? People with high I Qs should
only mate with low I Q s . People with dark skin should mate with light skin, and so on.
If this happened over time everyone would become normal or close to it.
We don't believe in selecitive breeding so every one makes their own choice. People
with high I Qs mate with high I Qs so they will have smart kids. Ever notice how birds
of a feather tend to stick together? I don't think I need say more you have the picture.

Nature is always trying to upgrade its self this is why we get these oddities like long
fins and so on. In the wild 99% of the time the environment checks it. If you take
away the reasons it doesn't work and it will. This is what we do . If you did the same
to a river in S. A. long fins would do well. If not call them lunch.

Most people have no idea what happens when you tank breed fish. One of the first
things to go is, it spawns out of season. After many spawnings it no longer needs the
same triggers. This may be hard for most of you to believe ,But I remember when
they used hormones to spawn albino corries. It was almost impossible to get any
production out of them. This will also come to pass with your plecos and synos.
Once they(you) have bred the wild instincts out of them they will be a lot easier.

It is almost impossible to set a strain of fish . The gold fish has been line breed for a
veeery long time . But they will revert back to carp in a very short time if you don't
keep your strains going. Fancy guppies in a pond will throw 100% commons in 2 yrs .

In 2001 Fla shiped $42,424 000. in tropical fish, remember this only Fla. and Fla is not the only producer. Any way you look at it this is a lot of fish. It was said that tropical
fish is a good way help save the natural rivers, and I agree 100% ,but not if we had
to take the mass numbers that it takes to feed the trop. fish hobbiest. The way I see
it any fish that feeds the monster(those who kill there fish within 6 mo and don't care
why they died,just buy more) takes that much load off old mother nature.

As you can see my fence was built at a diffrent time and a different place. When I look across it I see a diffrent picture.

[Taratron]

Looks like my tie-in to selective breeding "as long as they don't get away" didn't work.

I'm in Phoenix, AZ, by the way. I don't remember where these pacu were found, but I do believe they had done some damage to the plantlife there.

[Catfish Lover]

I do believe they had done some damage to the plantlife there.

I'll bet they did!

We have a park here in Tucson called Aqua Calliente. It has a lake that's fed by a hot water spring and you can find all kinds of Tropicals swimming in there. People just dump their tanks out right off the foot bridge. Under the bridge in the water you can see all kinds of different colored gravel from aquariums being dumped.

[Dinyar]

I just returned from three weeks in Japan and a week in China. Rusty suggested I read this "hot" thread. Apologies in advance if I am stirring the embers of a dying fire. My intention is only to provide some cultural perspective.

While in Japan, I visited several Buddhist temples. Japanese gardens, as you know, are very "man-made" attempts to create a very "natural" state-of-mind. Many feature apparently naturalistic pools, streams and waterfalls, typically stocked with colorful koi (which as we know, are very "man-made" fish). This aesthetic scheme -- including the fish -- has survived intact for more than five centuries.

This studied naturalism is not how I would lay out my garden if I had the resources that these temples and emperors did, but I think it would be Philistine of me not to try and appreciate it on its own terms, rather than imposing my personal aesthetics on it.

As a fish-keeper, my personal interest is in observing and learning about biodiversity in the confines of my home. On this level, hybridizing fish is anathema to me, and selective breeding only somewhat less so. But if it appeals to some people -- as it obviously does and has for centuries -- then perhaps it's best to leave them to their tastes. We should debate and try to educate, but rushing to condemn may be counterproductive.

In my personal opinion, one has to prioritize one's battles. For me, loss of biodiversity due to unsustainable economic development is the big fight. Instead of trying to create new varieties of life, we should be trying to hold on to the richness of life that we already have.

Dinyar

[nc0gnet0]

First off, old thread I know. Stumbled across it when I searched for "breeding longin bristlenose"

I was so amazed at the absolute hypocrisy of it all I felt compelled to say something, though I am sure many of the original participants have long since moved on.

The jest of it is, new guy comes in, asks for some help about breeding longfin pleco's, and gets one heck of alot of greif. Really guys? Come on now!

On the surface the argument that it is weakening the strain, it's a mutation, etc etc, may have merit. May have. That is if your opinion of being an aquarist is paddling down the amazon in a glass bottom boat watching the fish in there natural habitat. If you have a fish tank, and you got a pleco in it, and I don't care if his fins are 4 feet long or 4 microns long, brother, you have already crossed that line. So get of you high horse. Your like the guy driving down the freeway in a 55 mile an hour zone doing 65, and having the nerve to cuss out the guy doing 70. Gimmee a break already!
So your all trying to tell me that years of inbreeding your "pure" genetic pleco's in captivity haven't altered them in any way? Or have you been so carefull as to completely reproduce there "natural" environment? Oh really?