New tank setup with trickle filter and biological filter

[Jaz]

Though I'll paste my new plans here for you to comment. Still haven't decided anything for sure, but as I know figuring this all out will take time, I wanted to start early.

So I'm going to make new tanks for plecos, gonna build tanks only 20-30 cm high that are divided in sections. Then I will separe the breeding pairs to avoid fighting / killing. Have tried it with current 250 litres tank and it seems to be working.

I got few key points in making this.

1) I want to maximize the amount of oxygen in the water with trickle filter and algea filter.
2) I want to make a system where the chances of something bad happening are at minimum.
3) I want to keep water parameters as good as possible with the money that I have in my use.

Here is the pic with some explanations and rendered model. Don't know if this will be any good, but atleast I got some training in 3d modeling.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I can't really help with the sump or tank design. But for the planted trickle filter you would be much better with higher plants. Marine aquarists don't really have this as an option, so they use algae, but a higher plant like Cabomba would be more efficient at both nutrient removal and aeration, even if you didn't have PAR 24/7.

"Wet and dry" trickle filters are fantastic in terms of biological filtration, mainly because of their huge gas exchange capacity, and they only went out of favour with marine aquarists because the NO3 produced by biological filtration necessitated large volume water changes or mucking about with anaerobic denitrification (to out-gas the fixed nitrogen as N2). This isn't so much of a problem for us, as we can use plants as our nitrate sink, and also have easier access to water changes.

cheers Darrel

[Jaz]

Thanks Darrel

This was the reason I posted this here. I haven't made anything like this before. Never made a marine aquarium, sump, trickle filter or biological filter. Gonna give some though and google for plants in the filter. What I have heard about plants as oxygen generators is that they do make a lot of oxygen when the lights are on, but when the lights are turned off the actually remove it. Don't know if this is true or not though.

When I think about using plants, I just keep thinking that it would be great to grow something usefull like tomatoes or cucumber, but don't know if there is any point in that.

[jvision]

I have used pothos and other house plants for years as my nitrogen remover. I just buy the cheapest plants in the garden section of the big box stores, rinse all the dirt off the roots and put them into the tank, leaving the leaves out of the water.
I have since added an aquaponics grow bed to my system, which is similar to yours - it's a great way to grow your tomatoes!

[pleco_breeder]

My fish room is built entirely of similar systems, and I've only recently started using higher plants for nutrient control. I have a single red mangrove growing in each sump, floated in a piece of styrofoam, and have had a major reduction in nitrates as a result. Your design, with the sump below the tanks, probably doesn't have enough room for a tree, but should work well if a suitable group of plants can be found.

Larry

[wet-handed]

I would go with a floating type plant such as water Hyacinth. Floating plants take co2 from atmosphere.Ive had hyacinths with roots as long as 12-18 inches, they duplicate quickly almost daily an they are not a fan of bright lighting

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What I have heard about plants as oxygen generators is that they do make a lot of oxygen when the lights are on, but when the lights are turned off the actually remove it. Don't know if this is true or not though.

This is true, all organisms, including plants, respire (breathe), using up oxygen (O2) and producing carbon dioxide (CO2). In the case of plants, when there is enough light energy (above "light compensation point"), the process of photosynthesis (the conversion of CO2 into carbohydrates using light energy) releases more oxygen than respiration uses and the plants become net oxygen producers.

Processes other than respiration also use oxygen, one of the principle ones being "biological filtration", the microbial oxidation of the ammonia (NH3)(continually diffusing from your fishes gills) into nitrite (NO2) and eventually nitrate (NO3), another is the "ordinary" bacterial decomposition of sugars and proteins. We can sum up all these activities that use oxygen as the "Biochemical Oxygen Demand" or BOD of the tank. Have a look at this post for more on BOD <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 0&p=245385>.

Even though the Mangrove or Water Hyacinths that Wet-handed and Larry use successfully don't add any oxygen to the water directly, they remove NH3, NO2 and NO3. If that NH3 doesn't enter biological filtration its potential to de-oxygenate the tank water is removed. The growth of aquatic plants is often limited by the availability of CO2, by using plants with exposed leaves we can make use of the "aerial advantage", access to atmospheric CO2.

"Wet and dry" trickle filters work in a different way, but are also very effective. In this case the thin film of water flowing over the filter media produces a huge gas exchange surface, where CO2 will diffuse out of the water column and O2 in along their diffusion gradients with the atmosphere. The larger in area, and thinner in depth, that this film is the more efficient gas exchange will be.

You can potentially combine all 3 benefits by using a trickle filter with both submerged and emergent(or floating) plants. If we could have the submerged plants on different lighting regimes or plants that can utilise continuous day light, we could benefit from the oxygen production from photosynthesis 24/7.

Possibly the best option before going any further would be to have a look at these articles on other forums, one about an over tank planted trickle filter (from the excellent loaches on-line) <http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19431>, this one about deBruyn type trickle filters <http://www.aka.org/UserFiles/File/debruyn_filter.pdf> and the last about Oxygenation and aeration in the aquarium <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

cheers Darrel

[racoll]

a higher plant like Cabomba would be more efficient

Also have a look at hornwort (Ceratophyllum spp.). Grows like crazy, even with no added CO2, and doesn't need to be rooted.

What I have heard about plants as oxygen generators is that they do make a lot of oxygen when the lights are on, but when the lights are turned off the actually remove it

You can get round this problem by lighting your sump 24/7. This is what a lot of the marine folks do.

[Jaz]

Thanks guys.

Thats alot of reading. Gonna get back with better plans after I have gone through all that.

If anyone got some feedback on points which would make this whole system safer in means of eliminating bad luck I would be interrested. I'm currently going through the possibility of using UPS in case of electric blackouts.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Like Racoll says Ceratophyllum is a great plant all around for sumps, tanks and breeding set-ups, it will grow over a huge range of temperatures and pH values and is a very effective "nitrogen sponge". Another really good plant for warmer conditions is floating fern Ceratopteris I have it all my tanks.

cheers Darrel

[Jaz]

I think I have the sump and everything else pretty well sorted out.

But now I have one big thing I'm wondering:

Is there any downside of making a tank only 6 inch / 15 cm high? My original plan was to make them 25cm high, but if I go for 15 cm I can get the aquariums alot cheaper + I could make 1 extra level and get 1 more aquarium.

Anyone have any experience from low tanks? Did you have any problems with them? Could the plecos have some problem with a low tank? Could it affect to breeding in any way?

Thanks for help guys, this is going to be fun

[pleco_breeder]

The biggest problem will be a limit on size of fish in the tank. For a tank only 6 inches deep, I wouldn't go with anything longer than 3-4 inches. The reason for this is any territorial displaying that may take place along the wall. Granted, this is rather unlikely, but would be something to watch for depending on where the tank furniture is placed. Less rockwork/caves/wood along the walls should limit anything from really wanting to rest there and thereby limit territorial disputes.

Larry

[Jaz]

One of the main ideas of this was to get a way to separate breeding pairs easily. I'm pretty tired of the fighting. So I'm aiming to get only 1 male and x-number of females in every section of the tank (when adults). So in this case there would be max. 1m+3f in a tank section sized 40cm * 50cm * 15cm or 16*20*6 inches (6 is the hight).

Most of the species would be L134 or smaller, but if the fighting would be the biggest problem I might try a 1m+1f L200?

[pleco_breeder]

Even among matched pairs, you're going to get fighting. You may be able to get by with fish no larger than L134. I think L200 will end up being a death sentence for the female.

Larry

[Jaz]

Ok thanks Larry... again.

[Jaz]

Might end up choosing door #4 and make 3x 6inch tall tanks and 1 tank 10 inch tall just incase I get some bigger fishes.

Like this:

[pleco_breeder]

That does give the best of both worlds. Just in case, remember to allow yourself plenty of room above the tanks to comfortably siphon, net fish, or other general work. Nothing worse than having a great system become an annoyance to work on due to lack of space. I'm only adding this because the schematic does look a bit cramped with four rows.

Larry

[Jaz]

Yep you are correct. I have seen setups where the space became a problem. And when I use alot of money for this, I wanna make sure it works.

However only 15cm high tanks might allow me to use led-stripes as lightning. I previously calculated that the lightning would take atleast that 5cm space. Led-striped won't take any space at all. Need to run some tests with this though.

Four row schematics looked a bit retarded because I didn't increase the total high of the set like I planned, heres a new pic. Measures in millimeters. This would give me 20cm space to operate in 15cm tank and 25cm to operate in 25cm tank. And the bottom of the last tank would be around my eye height.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I think you will have to go for deeper tanks and less rows, I wouldn't go below 10" (25cm) deep, because you won't be able to keep the tanks brim full, and both a very large surface area/volume ratio and trickle filter is going to lead to a lot of evaporative cooling. What you have designed is a very effective air conditioning unit, but I think you will have to go deeper for it to fulfill its proper function.

cheers Darrel

[Jaz]

Thanks Darrel.

Filling the tanks to the max can be done like I did with my frytank. Used a glass at the end of the aquarium like in the picture. I don't say its a great solution, but it is a solution. But I do see your point in the deeper tank, it was also my original plan. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, just need to figure out the best plan. I'm actually really happy I didn't do this in a rush. The plan has become alot better on the way by asking around.

The evaporating will be a problem anyway. However while it is a problem it is also a solution. My girlfriend and my kid has a really dry skin during winters. After we got few more aquariums and raised the temperature, their skin got a lot better. But considering the tanks, it will be a problem. Current solution was to use an automated filler using RO-water from a canister. Don't know how that will play out, never done one before.

-Joonas

[m1ke715m]

what about designing lids for the tanks that would cut down exponentialy on evaporation

[Jaz]

Yep, probably gonna use the glass lids that come with the tank. Maybe I will just ask to make them with bigger holes in the corners to make sure air will flow there.

Thats just a minor problem, tank size is a lot bigger.

[Jaz]

The plan is slowly taking shape. Some things sorting out, some things making more questions.

I have changed the measurement of the tanks after negotiating with the manufacturer. There will be 3 tanks,
160cm / 63in wide
41cm / 15in deep
25cm / 10in high

Lightning will be done with high output led strips, gonna decide later if I use rgb strips or just white / blue. Not gonna grow any plants in the tanks anyway, so don't have to worry about this.

Circulation from the sump to tanks will be made with 3 x pumps, so every tank will get it's own. Possible choise Eheim compact 1000

Circulation within the tank will be made with streams. Gonna build some kind of cages around them to avoid any fry going in them. Gonna time them to stop for around an hour after feeding so everyone can find their food before its blow away.

Tanks will be divided into separate sections with stainless steal like this one:



Sump will include both fast growing waterplants like Ceratophyllum spp. and plants growing out like bush tomato. Gonna see about the lightning later, might use fluorescents 24/7

Gonna get an UPS for possible power failure.

Gonna get an high output aerator, something like this maybe (no experience from these before)
http://www.aquariumguys.com/sulupu39psi6.html

Still open questions:

- How big should those breeding sections be, 50cm, 40cm, 30cm? Gonna breed atleast L46,L66,L134,L174,L201. Gonna have breeding pairs or 1m/2f groups. Later probably gonna aim for L200 and L128
- Will 2 Tunze Turbelle nanostream 6015 be enough in 1 tank (1 in each end) for the circulation?
- What should I do with the lines coming from the sump to the tank? Should I add some nozzle to make more circulation within the tank or make some plan to oxygenate the water when it comes. For example a glass wall from which it will just flow down back to the tank and let streams deal with circulation.
- How should I make the sump? In what part should I add the water plants / plants growing from the tank? How many "walls" do I need and what should be the difference in water surface between different sections? What other filters do I use and where? What else I need? Gonna buy the sump tank ready with the rest, so I need some measurements for them.
- What would be a good high output aerator?
- How will I make the right side of the tanks? 2 meter long 12cm wide transparent pvc tube is pretty expensive. Do I actually need it? Can it achieve something good with bioballs there that isn't happening elsewhere? The lowest tank can't connect the tube anyway, should I just make 2 separate tubes from the 2 top tanks? Or just make 2 solid tubes going straight to the sump without the pvc-tube?

Thoughts in any of the open subjects are highly appreciated.

-Joonas

[Jaz]

Got this one open question:

- What should I do with the lines coming from the sump to the tank? Should I add some nozzle to make more circulation within the tank or make some plan to oxygenate the water when it comes. For example a glass wall from which it will just flow down back to the tank and let streams deal with circulation.

Anyone done something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSvXdN8P3MU

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I can't help with the plumbing, but I hope some-body can, because I'm very interested in seeing the finished set-up in operation.

cheers Darrel