Altums

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 24 Nov 2003, 19:31

Barbie, Those "altums" are simply peruvian altum which are nothing more than a scalare variant. There have been no confirmed reports of viable altum spawns with surviving fry as of yet. Key phrase is surviving fry because it seems anyone who has gotten them to hatch, they quickly die off. I did hear of one report about 2 years ago where one single fry lived to 3 weeks.

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Nov 2003, 19:39

No Gino, you are incorrect, I do know the difference between them, and so does Julie. They are true altums. Please feel free to email her for pictures and vital statistics and such.

Barbie

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 24 Nov 2003, 19:44

barbie can you direct me because all i can find is P. scalare the rio negro altum, not the true altum.

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Nov 2003, 20:52

magnum you'll have to talk to Julie at frybabies. Since you're across the big lake, I'm sure she'd be happy to contact them for you. She is registered as Lampy here on the board. I think she has pics of them on her site, but I haven't looked for them in a bit, since I don't have room for them if I DO decide I'm going to die without them

Barbie

plesner · Post by **plesner** » 24 Nov 2003, 22:06

There have been no confirmed reports of viable altum spawns with surviving fry as of yet.

In fact I know of successful breeding of P. altum in both Germany and Sweden. Right now I'm browsing my copy of a book in German called 'Altum-Skalare' by Horst Linke (Bede Verlag). There's a rather detailed description of how to breed altums and how to raise the fry. And believe me - it is the true altum, not that Peruvian pseudo-something often seen in the shops.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 24 Nov 2003, 23:56

plesner you mean:

even this book as i remember said fry raising is extreemly rare and largely unsucessful.

however if you have first hand knowledge i would be greatful for ground breaking tips.

plesner · Post by **plesner** » 25 Nov 2003, 00:47

Unfortunately I haven't got first hand experience on breeding altums. I hope one day to get a tank large (tall) enough to try - I don't care much for cichlids, but altums really are something special.

As I understand the book, it's not raising the fry which is the problem - it's making the parents breed in the first place.

Apart from the book I mentioned earlier, there's a description in the October issue of Datz from 1993. Unfortunately the one thing missing in that article is the water parameters.

A few years ago, a Swedish friend of mine outlined how someone in Sweden had succeeded in breeding altums as well: soft, acid and VERY clean water at a temperature just below 30Â°C. The parents were given a varied diet of frozen and live foods before they did breed.

I read somewhere, that simulating their natural conditions by giving them a period with less food, less water changes and then start changing the water a lot and at the same time giving them all they want to eat might be beneficial. The same thing seems to be useful when breeding cartain catfish, so why not ?

kwalker · Post by **kwalker** » 25 Nov 2003, 03:12

GinoInChicago wrote:. There have been no confirmed reports of viable altum spawns with surviving fry as of yet. .

i will get the contact info for you. Jim Robinson up in ontaerio canada has been spawning them for a few years. in fact now has a second generation now spawning. i will keep you posted. i have been fortunate to see his presentation on them and it is something to behold. He has video of his spawning, laying the eggs and hatching. quiet the site.

ken walker

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 25 Nov 2003, 08:15

What I don't understand if this is really the case, how come nobody on the angelfish boards or The Angelfish Society knows about this? I would like to see proof. If these claims are true, then these people need to share their knowledge with the rest of the hobby as to how this was accomplished. Some of the worlds most renowned agelfish people have been attempting this for years. Some have had them spawn, but the majority of these spawns died at free swimming stage and the rest shortly after. I would think if someone had gotten true P.Altums to produce a viable spawn it would be one of the biggest breakthroughs in the last ten years. Someone has to know something about it. All I have heard are rumours. I have followed up on a few of them and found later that the fish did spawn, but the fry died almost immediatly. This has been an ongoing thing for years. I have heard reports of altum spawns, but when it comes down to producing the proof...there is none.

spiny · Post by **spiny** » 25 Nov 2003, 08:43

I have heard of several successful breedings in the nordic countries, but the only one I know of that is documentet, you can read about at the swedish site http://www.ciklid.se
It was documented on an aquarium symphosium in Ã?rebro in 1993.
To make it short, altums livbed together in a 700 liter/nearly 200 gallon tank, with a ph of roughly 5, temp 29-30 celsius/85 Fahrenheit. Lots of livefood; mosquitolarvae, Mysis, etc.
The eggs were laid on an upright treeroot. Hatching after 2,5 days, swimming after 6 more days. After hatching the fry were moved to a Spathiphyllum leave, where they acted like a sprattling bunch on the leave.. They got Artemia, and later frozen Artemia and other live foods. The result was around 300 fry. LOTS of food. After 3 months they were 10-12 cm/4-5 inches tall! The parents really took good care of their small!
This happened in 1993.

The article states that altums are reported to have been bred in Japan, Hong Kong and Germany as well. There are/was? discussions wthether to separate the Rio Negro altum from the Orinoco altum; the Orinoco one said to be more difficult.

Many fishes are said to be very difficult, and these are typically blackwater species, from very acidic waters. Like the Checkerboard cichlids (Dicrossus) which in Norway isn't considered very difficult to breed. This is due to the water, that are often acidic and very soft.
Often aquarists tend to use waters that are far from their natural habitats, and few use blackwater for blackwater species. Many blackwater species adapt to neutral water, and many don,t!

I have experienced the same things with certain cacti species that everyone said was almost impossible to propagate fromm seed. But with reading more about the habitats, I solved it, and it was rather easy when the right method was found.
I don't say altum is easy, but with blackwater and large tank it should be possible.

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 25 Nov 2003, 08:48

Is there an english version of that site? I would love to read it.

spiny · Post by **spiny** » 25 Nov 2003, 08:54

There are no english version that I know of. But I posted the relevant facts that were included in the article. There should be some mailadress on the site, and you could contact them about how to get such information.

Wednesday I,m going to a meeting, where Kullander, the cichlid expert, is having this guiding. I'll ask him, and let you know if he has further information on altums.

spiny · Post by **spiny** » 25 Nov 2003, 09:20

I see now that there are more verified reports on breeding altums. DATZ october 1993(the german magazine) reports on Adolf Siegrist's successful breeding.
The same incident is also described in Discus jahrbuch 1994 (german).

Sven FrÃ¶ding is the name of the swede that is said to be the first breeder. In fact he made a videofilm of the spawning and everything! You could contact http://www.ciklid.se and ask if that video is available!?
An other article on ciklid.se says FrÃ¶ding has a ph of 6,5 and 250 mikrosiemens, but before spawning he brings the water down to ph 5 and 50 mikrosiemens.

Aquarium Heute 1/94 (german) tells about other breedings in Germany; ph 5.9-6.3, 26,5 degrees celsius, 150 microsiemens. Spawning on an Echindorus leave. Here breedings in Liechtenstein and Japan is also mentioned.

Hmmm.. maybe a real Orinoco tank with Discus, altums, cardinalneons etc should be my next project?!

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 25 Nov 2003, 09:24

GinoInChicago wrote:I would think if someone had gotten true P.Altums to produce a viable spawn it would be one of the biggest breakthroughs in the last ten years. Someone has to know something about it.

They are being bred in Canada, the US, Germany, Scandinavia and they have been bred in the UK on more than one occasion.
I have a pair at work currently head-shaking and showing much attention in a beech branch.
I hate the term 'Peruvian Altum'. Although these may actually prove to be different from P. scalare sensu stricto, they are a long long way away from true Altum Angels in behaviour, appearance and geographical distribution..

spiny · Post by **spiny** » 25 Nov 2003, 09:25

Try serching on http://www.google.com as well! "Breeding Pterophyllum altum" or something! I find lots of things via Google all the time!

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 25 Nov 2003, 09:25

I have been doing a google search, and found one guy in japan that is claiming to be breeding altums...unfortunately the fish shown are peruvians not true altums. I have been searching through web pages for the last 3 hours and have found nothing to show they have been successfully bred. I did find a post in a killiefish forum by Jim Robinson claiming he has been breeding them since '92, but have not found any substantiating info other than that post. I am still looking. I would have thought finding such information would not be so difficult.

Post by **Shane** » 25 Nov 2003, 13:45

Gino,
There are more than a few articles on the subject. If you need one in English with photos in order to believe that Orinoco Altums are being spawned look no further than the July 2002 issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. "Spawning Altum Angels" by Jim Robinson on pg132. I think I also stated before that there are several Colombians breeding them as they are a staple of the hobby down here. I can try to make contact with some of the breeders/exporters for you if you are interested. Having spent two years in Venezuela collecting the Orinoco drainages and the last year collecting the Amazon basin in Colombia, Peru, and Brazil, I have collected many examples of both sp. and I can tell you that local breeders in Bogota are offering young Orinoco Altums that came from stocks shipped out of Puerto CarreÃ±o and/or Puerto Inirida. Venezuelan Altums for the local trade originate out of Puerto Ayacucho.

Actually this is myself (in the hat) collecting P. scalare two weeks ago with the Yagua tribe We were in an unnamed caÃ±o about 200 meters off the main Amazon (east, on the Colombian side) just across from Isla Los Micos.
-Shane

GinoInChicago · Post by **GinoInChicago** » 25 Nov 2003, 20:29

Thats all I needed Shane, unfortunately I cannot read swedish or german or japanese. Heck I have a hard enough time with spanish. However I will need to re-read that article. There was something about that article that raised a lot of questions when I last read it...There was some key information missing and I know several people who have followed that article who have no luck. One of the problems with altums is how quickly they mature. If someone wants to breed them, how many are actually willing to wait 5 years for them to mature? Most people don't have that kind of patience. I sure know I don't.
One of these days, when I get my BIG tank I wil be stocking it with altums and it will be a strictly "wild" type fish tank, with sterbai for bottom feeders and various other dithers. I have this all planned out, but no place to put it yet. lol.

As far as them being bred in Columbia, I don't doubt it especially if they are doing it in ponds as I am sure the water is about as close to their natural evironment as anyone can get. I spent hours last night looking for proof on-line. I found nothing. What a surprise. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and I will concede to that. All it means is these people who are doing it are with-holding the info necessary for other hobbiests to do the same. Which in itself is wrong.

ClayT101 · Post by **ClayT101** » 26 Nov 2003, 00:01

Although I am not really trying to breed Altums, I just thought I would share the fact that I have 5 Altums in a 110 gal.

spiny · Post by **spiny** » 27 Nov 2003, 00:38

Today I joined a cichlid meeting at the Naturalhistory museum of Stockholm, where Sven Kullander told us about the different projects and research, and showed us the fishes, and especially cichlids that were stored on jars preserved in alcohol, with locality data and everything! Whow! So many species of nice cichlids! Most of the Apistogrammas, and everything you could ask for, especially species from central and south America.
I asked the members of the cichlid society about breeding altums, and most of them had seen Sven FrÃ¶dings succesful breeding which is taped on video! Some of us proposed some of the tape could be converted into a .bmp file, and made available on the internet? FrÃ¶ding is actually showing the video at meetings sometimes, they said. I would like to see it. Kullander only said that if trying to breed altums, just be sure to use real blackwater, like it is in their naturral habitat. He is one of the big authorities on s and c American cichlids, and had done extensive fieldtrips to the altum areas, as well as other s American areas. As I understood him, there are no secret hokus pokus other than really get them something close to their natural habitat.

I for sure is going to try these altums later.

Altums

Breeding P altum

Breeding altums

Breeding altums

Breeding altums

Altums