"Unscrupulous aquabid seller" continued

[Birger]

but is this why I haven't seen Birger

This is a busy time of year for me with my real job of which I am fighting a losing battle to beat the snow....that is what pays the bills.

My timing is sometimes off, that goes with moderating a global forum but I do generally read all the posts and am watching...always watching

[Jools]

MatsP has left the forum entirely...I was under the impression that Jools was going to make some kind of announcement about that.

I was, but Mats and I never agreed what to say. I will ask him again when we meet for dinner at the weekend.

Jools

[racoll]

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

I have to post a dissenting opinion here

So you're saying it's okay to be deliberately antagonistic to someone who doesn't share your personal taste in fish?

[Jools]

Jools, is it really to be expected that newcomers to the forum are subjected to these kind of "robust comments", just for asking entirely reasonable questions about their fish?

That's a brilliant question and cuts right to the heart of the issue. This whole thing boils down is it better to shy away from confrontation or not. Maybe I was too robust, but it appears to me that when a rule is broken, 100 l-numbers are paraded in a 48" tank or an unhealthy fish is posted by an new keeper perhaps oblivious to their plight then we should not keep our well meaning tongues still? Isn't free speech actually being able to say negative things but, of course, in a civil way.

For example and showing what I mean by robustly, "in my opinion you're killing that fish because XYZ". Not, "maybe you're not keeping that fish in the best way", I mean, "you're killing that fish".

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

How do folks progress with their hobby if derision is absent? I agree with fight or flight, but maybe they might just get what all the fuss was about. Or the next reader does. So I'd suggest there is a third outcome which is that knowledge is gained.

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

You are indeed a wise man, but you don't appear to have much good to say about my "robust comment" view. Yes, you're right of course, that there are ways of saying things. It's a really hard job for the moderators because of both the broad international nature and the variable written language skills of the community at large. Blunt, rude, direct or concise - which was meant? And often the key is not in the poorly framed criticism but in the disproportionation reaction.

And, in the end, how does an OP tell the difference between being ignored and not being read? If my "Do you like my new LED skull ornament" got no "likes", does that mean no one likes, or no one listens? My worst thought is that it is actually because some are hesitant to post in fear of being seen as a (LED skull) hater.

Because lovely things grow out of poo, how about we use this topic to have a debate on what all our regulars want to see? The forum only exists because of all of them (and a little bit of work from me).

Jools

[vinman]

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

I have to post a dissenting opinion here

So you're saying it's okay to be deliberately antagonistic to someone who doesn't share your personal taste in fish?

racoll, I in totally agree with you. That is what I'm getting from his post . It is unrespectful attitude towards other members.

[vinman]

Jools Who is anyone to say that Long Fin BNP are not healthy and can't swim right. I don't see no deformed eyes.. If anything the skin around the eyes is a light color giving the appearance of a eye that looks larger than normal but is normal size If you ever tried to catch one that person would know how fast they swim and how hard they are to catch. I copped sidguppy post below . You tell me where do you see knowledge gained all I see is a off topic misleading & derogatory post. The fact it is not a hybrid as Shane has pointed out so not only is his post derogatory but also totally misleading both on purity and the ability to swim along his comment about the fishes eyes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BNP Calico or Chocolate LF
by sidguppy » Mon May 07, 2012 10:43 am

this poor thing makes me very sad....

it can't swim properly because of the misshaped fins, it's a hybrid and it has pop eyes......
Valar Morghulis

[Viktor Jarikov]

... actually being able to say negative things but, of course, in a civil way.
... How do folks progress with their hobby if derision is absent?

To me, Jools, these are mutually exclusive statements. Like light and dark, oil and water, civility and derision (evil, satirical, twisted, disdainful, ridiculing, mocking, contempting humor by definition) do not co-exist.

That's the heart of the matter IMO: There are polite and considerate and civil ways to convey knowledge and opinions and there are those that aren't. Yes, there is some gray area but vast majority of people know one from the other in a vast majority of cases, no matter what culture they are from.

... And no, your work is no little. We all will be forever indebted to you and the fruits of your passion. I will, anyway.

[Scleropages]

I do generally read all the posts and am watching...always watching

Ahh, good to see you on here. I, too, have been very busy with my career and my recent vacation (if you can call it that) to Chengdu with my wife and 17-month-old daughter. It was an adventure, to say the least. I've only been able to check in on PC sporadically for the past 6 months. It's probably why I haven't stumbled upon your more recent posts. Bad timing. Have fun before the big snow comes! Cool 'smilie'... very appropos for October. Selah.

[Suckermouth]

I've been on a Neil deGrasse Tyson kick the past couple weeks and I think he brilliantly criticizes Richard Dawkins on his approach in educating others in the following video. I think there are some parallels here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

I can recall moments where I think someone has gone way overboard in their reaction to things such as hybrids, breeds, and overstocking. Sometimes, when I see new threads on some of these topics, I post first to try to get in a level-headed response before a newer member's impression of PlanetCatfish is tarnished forever. Look, it's not the end of the world, let's communicate reasonably first.

[The.Dark.One]

I believe MatsP has also left other (Facebook based) fish forums - probably for similar reasons to leaving PC?

As you can see from the sentence above, this issue of people falling out, trolling etc is not just confined to PC.

At the end of the day 'aquarism' is a hobby (although to some it is their livelihoods if they are running a fish business). My view is that hobbies are supposed to be something that helps you escape from the horrors and worries of the real world. Instead we see people falling out all the time over fish. There has been many times when I could have argued with people but normally I just say 'OK, whatever' or just ignore comments. I've enough hassle in my life without seeing or being involved with slanging matches over fish. I have bitten once or twice (not on here), but try not to.

I agree with racoll. Unless someone is genuinely hurting fish then if there is something you dont like, just ignore it. Why subject someone to a rant or funny comment just because you dont like what they like? Everyone has to start somewhere. Not everyone will like the same things. If you want this to be PlanetCatfishbutonlyforseriouskeepersofcertaintypesofcatfish then fair enough, have a go at someone who likes aquarium strains of bristlenose cats, or hybrid synos. I personally intensely dislike hybrid synos but if someone wants to keep them (and keep them well) let them get on with it, providing they know they are hybrids and dont pass them off as 'true' species.

When it gets to personal name calling, or slanging off someone's nationality or race, or sexuality - its gone too far in my opinion. I also think people end up being banned or just leaving because they can do without the hassle. I also get annoyed when people pontificate and tell someone something is or isn't this species etc. Why not just frame it as your opinion, even if you are 100% certain you are right?

[m1ke715m]

i think most people that buy hybrid synos buy them when they are new to the hobby or because they get burned and misled or just because they dont know any better.. i know i bought a few synodontis decorus @ 1" from a lfs before i knew better and they turned out to be hybrids.. should i flush them? try to sell them? no i just keep them cuz they are pretty fish and im not going to ethicaly sell anyone hybrids to begin with and im surely not going to flush healthy fish

that brings into play the whole can of worms that seems to be present on every fish forum, people keeping attractive looking fish that have been altered from naturual selection in some way. i for one didnt know it was frowned on to even keep longfin variants of common bn.. hybrids i understand and dont agree with.. linebreeding i dont have an issue with personaly but like someone else said.. different strokes for different folks.. people are going to like what they like.. its really not fair to try and shove your opinions down anyone else's throat.. explaining why something is frowned upon i think is more productive than berating someone.. ok the longfin thing i can understand why some people wouldnt like that if its detrimental to the fish (which im not sure how it is maybe someone can elaborate).. how about linebreeding for color ie: super reds and green dragons, or piebald(calico, marble)and albinos.. are genetic mutations also frowned upon?

how should someone thats new know whats cool and what isnt? and should we have to feel shameful for keeping fish we didnt know were even looked down upon because we thought they were cool looking? on the other hand how will we even know if no1 tells you something isnt cool or that its frowned upon

im not really presenting an opinion here one way or the other just kind of exploring the marketplace of ideas.. playing devil's advocate for both sides

i think the bottom line is people should have the same amount of respect for someone on a forum that they would if they were face to face.. i know alot of people that talk down to others wouldnt do that in real life imo.. at least not to me

[The.Dark.One]

i think the bottom line is people should have the same amount of respect for someone on a forum that they would if they were face to face.. i know alot of people that talk down to others wouldnt do that in real life imo

I agree with your views m1ke715m. Especially the last bit. I've even heard of disputes on other forums turning to threats of violence etc. Half of the time if most of these people were communicating face to face it wouldnt get as heated as it does because someone would get a punch on the nose in some situations.

[bassgenie]

i think the bottom line is people should have the same amount of respect for someone on a forum that they would if they were face to face.. i know alot of people that talk down to others wouldnt do that in real life imo

I agree with your views m1ke715m. Especially the last bit. I've even heard of disputes on other forums turning to threats of violence etc. Half of the time if most of these people were communicating face to face it wouldnt get as heated as it does because someone would get a punch on the nose in some situations.

Gotta love internet tough guys...

[vinman]

I have to agree with Mike too, Live and let live and to treat someone on the net as you would in person, well said Mike

[Scleropages]

Ooo... Atlantic Highlands. So close to Sandy Hook and my one of my favorite beachs in NJ--Gunnison. Well said, m1ke715m. I try to picture myself in a room with all of the other forum members when I attempt to write a post on an internet forum. You will eventually have conflicts with other people/personalities, but the skill in the way which the participants deal with that conflict is what determines the outcome. Violence can almost always be averted by skillful action from all participants.

[Bas Pels]

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)?

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

I have to post a dissenting opinion here

So you're saying it's okay to be deliberately antagonistic to someone who doesn't share your personal taste in fish?

Not for personal taste

I'm not attracted to Loricarids, others are. Fine

But when it comes to hybrids, color morphs, and so on? Apart from a fewe people making money on them, it is a matter of informing people what they have

A long fin Ancistrus for instance is awkward: They come from stron currents, where such a fish could never survive

That is something the general opinion on this forum has never liked. And, Racoll, even though I have been doing what I think I should do, I have never been warned

So, perhaps, I think I have kept my comments within the margins. But in a discussion as this one, I think it is better to express one views. We might, due to a feeling of remaining polite, never come to the heart of the matter, which would be a shame

Still, unneeded impoliteness is, obviously, always to be prevented

[Yann]

Jools Who is anyone to say that Long Fin BNP are not healthy and can't swim right. I don't see no deformed eyes.. If anything the skin around the eyes is a light color giving the appearance of a eye that looks larger than normal but is normal size If you ever tried to catch one that person would know how fast they swim and how hard they are to catch. I copped sidguppy post below . You tell me where do you see knowledge gained all I see is a off topic misleading & derogatory post. The fact it is not a hybrid as Shane has pointed out so not only is his post derogatory but also totally misleading both on purity and the ability to swim along his comment about the fishes eyes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BNP Calico or Chocolate LF
by sidguppy » Mon May 07, 2012 10:43 am

this poor thing makes me very sad....

it can't swim properly because of the misshaped fins, it's a hybrid and it has pop eyes......
Valar Morghulis

Vinman: I really don't get the point of putting this...like I said, no one wants to know who started, who did it first, who replied...etc... why keeping throwing oil into the fire. Sincerely I understand you took it bad but the comments you put from Sid has nothing bad to my eyes except expressing an opinion on a situation...

It goes into the whole debate, Hybrids / selected fish vs wild form / natural phenotype.
The debate is basically in every part of animal breeding: birds, Reptiles, Dogs, Cats... with pro or against one side debating on who is right...anyway it is something that will never stop.
Even if we disagree on each point...one point should be common on how to take care well and insure the well being of these animals...what ever it is hybrid or natural

Cheers
Yann

[Jools]

how should someone thats new know whats cool and what isnt?

That's the best bit of text I've read in this thread for a while. I am not sure how we do that without passing comment?

Jools

[Jools]

I don't see no deformed eyes.. If anything the skin around the eyes is a light color giving the appearance of a eye that looks larger than normal but is normal size If you ever tried to catch one that person would know how fast they swim and how hard they are to catch. I copped sidguppy post below . You tell me where do you see knowledge gained all I see is a off topic misleading & derogatory post. The fact it is not a hybrid as Shane has pointed out so not only is his post derogatory but also totally misleading both on purity and the ability to swim along his comment about the fishes eyes.

this poor thing makes me very sad....

it can't swim properly because of the misshaped fins, it's a hybrid and it has pop eyes......
Valar Morghulis

If this gets cast up again - by anyone - I'm going to issue a warning to that person for trolling and lock the thread. For the record I do not think it is derogatory (except to the fish), offtopic (it clearly refers to the picture posted), I do not think it is misleading (these are opinions and not fact Shane and I have great fun disagreeing with each other on the hybrid point - the kind of disagreeing that ends up in a mild hangover and zero hard feelings). As Steve points out; the more anyone knows about something, the less sure they are of facts.

Here's an old quote from Shane on an early long finned thread...

They may not be as bad as Bloody Parrot Cichlids, but every one of these deformities that is purchased pushes us further down that road. We are only goading on the breeders in Singapore and Florida to take things one step further by purchasing these fish.
I do not want to "flame" Barbie (because I think the world of her), but just because the long-finned angels sold well does not mean much. Glow in the dark plastic plants, flourescent pink gravel, and bubbling mermaids also sell well as do "painted" Corydoras, bubble eye goldfish, and balloon mollies. I agree there is no accounting for taste. However, there are those with different tastes and then there are those with no taste at all.
If you want to breed Ancistrus, purchase some wild stock or fry from a fellow aquarist. Please do not propagate these things.

In my post above perhaps I chose the wrong word, when I used the word derisive I meant contrary. For example, if I comment on a post like vinman's and I express the opinion that they swim poorly, are hybrids and have odd looking eyes then I do not think that kind of post should be avoided. As the person on this forum who took the most verbal abuse from sidguppy by a large margin, I think that this post was reasonable. Other, more aggressive posts eventually got him banned, sadly.

In most fishkeeping circles, hybridisation and breeding for traits beyond natural form has hit the headlines, being figured out and a position adopted well before the advent of online discussion groups. Catfish, as a group, are unusual in that a higher than average percentage of them are wild caught and these things have come late and are being figured out, globally, online.

Taking my "I pay the bills" admin hat off, it's my personal view that when a fishes vitality is adversely affected by captive breeding for traits such as long fins or bubble eyes, then that's pretty uncool. I quite like the colour morphs though.

Jools

[m1ke715m]

A long fin Ancistrus for instance is awkward: They come from stron currents, where such a fish could never survive

not to go OT but i found this in the cat-eLog
The common Bristlenose is commonly captive bred appears impossible to identify to species primarily due to a lack of original locality information but also because tens of undescribed congeners exist. It is not assigned to species here for that reason. It is sometimes thought to be a hybrid, however it is not easy to determine if it is so or not.

so if we dont know where they are from how do we know what kind of current they could or couldnt survive in due to their abnormaly long fins not know their natural biotype? im not trying to ruffle any feathers i just dont get it

how should someone that's new know whats cool and what isnt?

That's the best bit of text I've read in this thread for a while. I am not sure how we do that without passing comment?

Jools

thank you, thank you.. i actually put alot of thought into that tirade.. i just went into another huge response and somehow hit the wrong button and it navigated away from the screen and i had to retype it all and forgot half of it.. so ill try to summarize..

when i was new to the hobby i couldnt understand why people didnt like hybrids.. how could anyone be against a colorful asthetically pleasing fish? (africans) i just didnt get it.. i heard the arguments and didnt really get it till i started keeping rarer fish and found out how hard it was to find legit wild or f1 stock or sometimes to find the fish at all.. it wasnt until i got more serious about the hobby that i realized it really wasnt cool to sell bs fish with bad bloodlines. theres nothing worse than having someone tell you they have the fish you want and you get there and the parents look horrible. most people that are new dont get this.. so you have to school them

it really comes down to how you speak to people thou.. most people dont respond well to someone speaking down to them.. even if the other person is right. anyone that knows vinman knows hes not one of those people that responds well.. some people can deal with conflict better than others and can just shrug it off and some people cant... some people cant even deal with constructive criticism.. theres all different kinds of people out there.. i constantly have people from other forums pming me or txt messaging my phone asking me questions.. sometimes really stupid ones.. i always try to talk to people how i would want to be talked to because i know that i once was that person asking extremely dumb questions and didnt know any better and i wouldnt have liked people being rude due to my ignorance.. the only way to fix ignorance is to teach people..and the only way to teach people is to be polite otherwise people stop listening..

[mjlfish]

I'd say the following about threads that touch on highly contentious topics (e.g. catfish bred for long finnage - which, culturally within this forum, is broadly seen as bad taste) then the OP is likely to get robust comment. Such comment is not off topic and it is not harrasement if appertaining to the fish/issue in the post. There is a fine line when it becomes trolling, but this is judged on merit each time.

Jools, is it really to be expected that newcomers to the forum are subjected to these kind of "robust comments", just for asking entirely reasonable questions about their fish?

It's hardly suprising that when people's hobbies are effectively derided in this way, that they'll either fight (like vinman) or flight (leave the forum)? Two thumbs up for you sir! For hitting the nail on the head. If you do not like it don't force your negative comments on someone. What you may find to be inappropriate fish to keep others may find them to be the reason they like fish in the first place. As for the name calling, well I'm not innocent in that regard so I won't judge. I will just say that you need to find a way to deal with it and move on. Come on Vinman, New yorkers have thicker skin than that don't they? Now don't get me started on the anti USA attitude from Marc. Everyone is anti USA till they need a handout or someone to save their backside. Funny how that works.... And I will not look back into this thread as the negative comments on that will cause me to call names! Why? Because, unlike a lot of folks these days I still take pride in my country. Oh and being former Army I understand how our men and women get put in harms way for ungrateful people all the time. Its a thankless job for the most part. Oh yeah and in the spirit of the welfare state America is trying not to become, if you don't like long finned fish that means you are a fish racist! Sittin around typing in your long white robes, and pointy hats! Just a joke people, but seriously, the attitude about it is very similar. This kill it because it is different attitude got a whole bunch of people in trouble throughout history, and even to this day. Something to consider.

I tend to work under the very wise assumption that "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". If I do have to make a negative comment, I try to make it in third person, so not to appear as being directly derogatory to a person's hobby.

[Bas Pels]

A long fin Ancistrus for instance is awkward: They come from stron currents, where such a fish could never survive

not to go OT but i found this in the cat-eLog
The common Bristlenose is commonly captive bred appears impossible to identify to species primarily due to a lack of original locality information but also because tens of undescribed congeners exist. It is not assigned to species here for that reason. It is sometimes thought to be a hybrid, however it is not easy to determine if it is so or not.

so if we dont know where they are from how do we know what kind of current they could or couldnt survive in due to their abnormaly long fins not know their natural biotype? im not trying to ruffle any feathers i just dont get it

Although in general you are right - if I don't know what fish I got how can I know what it needs - in the case of Ancistrus it is different: all ancistrus live in similar circumstances.

A rocky area with high current. Not much lives there, and thus they eat algea which are abundent due to the shallow water and often quite intense sun. The only differences are temperature and water chemistry

Still it is a bit off topic - but I got no feathers which can be ruffled, so no feathers are ruffled

[Bas Pels]

Now don't get me started on the anti USA attitude from Marc. Everyone is anti USA till they need a handout or someone to save their backside. Funny how that works.... And I will not look back into this thread as the negative comments on that will cause me to call names! Why? Because, unlike a lot of folks these days I still take pride in my country.

I do hope I did not misquote, as I'm afraid your quoting got a bit messed up

Whatever Marc feels about the USA, this should not matter. After all, we are a fish forum and not a politic one. If you don't bring the USA in, it is out.

But I have to admit, I do feel a bit annoyed sometimes about people insisting to use other names then the scientific ones (BN, RTC, for instance) and the people doing that are most often Americans

The same goes for feet, gallons (which ones, i always wonder) and so on. Please do remember these units are used in the USA. They are further used in the UK - but hardly anywhere else. Stating you have a 20 L tank is, to me, stating nothing.

Every now and then I wonder whether people from the USA do realize this is an international forum. We have a topic where do you come from. Roughly 45 % or less of the people who have voted there are form the USA, a bit more from Europe and the rest is from elsewhere

I have to realize this forum is not Dutch. That is, Dutch names are unknown, the Dutch language is pointless here - and Dutch behaviour (we are said to be blunt) is also not welcome. I have to adapt.

I think Americans should do the same - just like we all do

And then we can keep politics out of this forum, to concentrate on catfish

[Jools]

A long fin Ancistrus for instance is awkward: They come from stron currents, where such a fish could never survive

not to go OT but i found this in the cat-eLog
The common Bristlenose is commonly captive bred appears impossible to identify to species primarily due to a lack of original locality information but also because tens of undescribed congeners exist. It is not assigned to species here for that reason. It is sometimes thought to be a hybrid, however it is not easy to determine if it is so or not.

so if we dont know where they are from how do we know what kind of current they could or couldnt survive in due to their abnormaly long fins not know their natural biotype? im not trying to ruffle any feathers i just dont get it

Mike,

All Ancistrus are not from strong currents, however, many are. I've visited several countries in South America and I've collected different Ancistrus species in still water and in current. The likelihood is that the wild form of the common Ancistrus comes from medium to strong current. However, that is one aspect of it - another is fry vitality and adult fecundity - anecdotally these are negatively affected in several of these strains.

Jools

[m1ke715m]

Although in general you are right - if I don't know what fish I got how can I know what it needs - in the case of Ancistrus it is different: all ancistrus live in similar circumstances.

A rocky area with high current. Not much lives there, and thus they eat algea which are abundent due to the shallow water and often quite intense sun. The only differences are temperature and water chemistry

Still it is a bit off topic - but I got no feathers which can be ruffled, so no feathers are ruffled

lol touche..

ok so how do the longfins adversely affect the fish swimming in a strong current i guess is my question? i have noticed that longfin variants take twice as long to get big compared to shortfin variants of the same fish.. why, idk..

also how would one get "wild or f1" stock of fish that are impossible to get in the wild because we dont know where they are from or if they are hybrids

most people keep common ancistrus for one reason.. algae control in their tanks.. most people breed common ancistrus for the same reason.. to grow them out and sell them to people who want them for algae control or for their own tanks for algae control i know i have them in every single one of my tanks except one with a robust breeding pair of lamprologines that wont allow it and the tank is quite dirty looking with algae all over everything, they dont seem to mind thou
in this function wouldnt a longin ancistrus serve its purpose just as well as a shortfin? all im saying is if we are talking about a fish that could be a hybrid to begin with whats the difference if it has longfins as well.. its already a frankenfish

oh and americans always think in terms of us being the only ones on the planet.. you cant be mad at us about it thou.. well you can, but you shouldnt.. you should feel bad for us, we dont know any better its how we are brainwashed by society to be.. we dont even realize other states exist most of the time let alone other countries.. we dont understand the metric system most of us and therefor would never use it.. even thou in theory its much simpler than the US standard system

[racoll]

How do folks progress with their hobby if derision is absent? I agree with fight or flight, but maybe they might just get what all the fuss was about. Or the next reader does. So I'd suggest there is a third outcome which is that knowledge is gained.

I don't think there is any need to force opinions on other people. It's patronising at best, and inflammatory at worst. It's humiliating to the OP, and it's no wonder some of them get upset from time to time. I don't care for these mutant fish either, but is the forum some sort of holy crusade, saying "these people are broken and need to be fixed"? Perhaps they are happy with their hobby the way it is?

If they are receptive, then just by reading other threads and browsing the cat-elog they will quickly realise that there's more to catfish than albino bristlenose etc, and will pick things up on their own. But as always it depends on the context, and sometimes there's certainly room to gently encourage people away from things like hybrid synos (that do have a detrimental effect on the hobby, rather than just being tasteless).

it really comes down to how you speak to people thou.. most people dont respond well to someone speaking down to them.. some people can deal with conflict better than others and can just shrug it off and some people cant... the only way to teach people is to be polite otherwise people stop listening.

Absolutely! Although, as Jools has already pointed out, different cultures and different language proficiencies mean that it's not always straightforward. If in doubt, it's always best to assume that no harm was meant, but telling someone off-the-bat that their pet fish is an abomination, is hardly going to make the forum a welcoming place.

how does an OP tell the difference between being ignored and not being read? If my "Do you like my new LED skull ornament" got no "likes", does that mean no one likes, or no one listens?

Not sure it matters. In many cases there will be members who genuinely like LED skulls, and will reply. If not, then the poster may get the hint and move onto a different board (nothing wrong with that), or if they ask "Bump, I've 100 views but nobody's replied?", then someone can politely respond with "well those LED skulls aren't really our cup of tea here".

[m1ke715m]

Mike,

All Ancistrus are not from strong currents, however, many are. I've visited several countries in South America and I've collected different Ancistrus species in still water and in current. The likelihood is that the wild form of the common Ancistrus comes from medium to strong current. However, that is one aspect of it - another is fry vitality and adult fecundity - anecdotally these are negatively affected in several of these strains.

Jools

how so?

oh and i totally just had to look up the word fecundity lol (learn something new everyday lol)

oh and i think alot of people use terms like bn or RTC just because of the computer culture its just quicker to abbreviate.. i for one type around 100wpm and sometimes its just easier to abbreviate... i do try to use proper names when at all possible.. i find its just easier to use L#s most of the time when discussing lorricards

[m1ke715m]

Absolutely! Although, as Jools has already pointed out, different cultures and different language proficiencies mean that it's not always straightforward. If in doubt, it's always best to assume that no harm was meant, but telling someone off-the-bat that their pet fish is an abomination, is hardly going to make the forum a welcoming place.

i hear you.. i for one personaly think most, if not all mbuna are junk fish.. but if i were to say that in every post about mbuna on the plethora of african cichlid forums im a member of, id get burnt at the stake.. so i keep alot of my negative comments to myself unless i know people personaly and they ask my opinion about it.. however, im not wired to do this; keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself, for the most part im the exact opposite but ive learned that its not worth the drama it creates so i keep stuff like that to myself in public situations

[Jools]

Current access rates (Sept. 2012) are:

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And then we can keep politics out of this forum, to concentrate on catfish

We have to. If we don't this forum won't be as good as it could be.

Jools

[Jools]

oh and i think alot of people use terms like bn or RTC just because of the computer culture its just quicker to abbreviate.. i for one type around 100wpm and sometimes its just easier to abbreviate... i do try to use proper names when at all possible.. i find its just easier to use L#s most of the time when discussing lorricards

Well, we are covering a lot of ground with this thread! Another hot topic over the years has been the proliferation of l-number usage. The "holy crusade" as Racoll puts it is to stop using them when a species is described. One should write

Hypancistrus zebra

rather than

L046

. Again, some folks get pretty excited about that too! It was once famously asked why an expert should take time to write out a few good paragraphs of reply to a post in which the OP had just asked something like can I keep Lxxx with Lyyy and Lzzz - .i.e. hadn't gone to the effort of even writing the names.

I'm not sure it's computer culture, as a lifelong techie, I find it's often the less tech savvy that use . My Mum (aged 70) being the worst - she can write a great sentence but can I get her to txt(SMS) me in English?!?!?

Anyway, I think it's cool to write out scientific names in posts as it helps me practice spelling them.

Jools