what would it take

[sequoiacat]

to get a species page for a catfish that is found in the aquarium trade only and is a hybrid between tigershovelnose species and leiarius marmoratus?

[Birger]

Make sure it is not one of the hybrids already in

Pimelodidae

Send a picture or pictures with an explanation, following the directions in the link below for sending images.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/general/ge ... cle_id=397

Birger

[Viktor Jarikov]

I totally support this initiative. I've kept and keep these guys too. But one thing to beware is that I've recently stumbled on two slightly differing kinds: one is likely a TSNxL.marmoratus or longibarbis kind and the other is TSNxL.pictus, if I had to guess: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =7&t=36214

I don't think they are in Cat-eLog. I am pretty sure. Not under Pseudoplatystoma or Leiarius for sure.

[sequoiacat]

viktor since ya can tell the difference if it is a L.pictus or L.marmoratus hybrid look at the one I got should be a pic of it and two L. pictus within mycats page.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Oh! Surprise, surprise! You're Aquaculture on MFK. I just saw these photos today for the first time in Catfish Media Lounge. I'm inclined (and inclined only), judging from the spotting pattern of your 32"-er, it may be the standard TSN x marmoratus/longibarbis. But really, a side shot is needed with a nice view of a dorsal fin.

Yet, again, I cannot claim I am right or I know the difference. I only proposed that the dorsal may give away the difference - it is but a straw-man proposal. I needed this to be validated by the PCF experts but so far got no response (in the thread linked above). Either they didn't see it/didn't wanna see it (I don't expect any one to ) or they don't know.

[sequoiacat]

OK cool thanks, the side pics will have to wait till they are moved again or i get an underwater camera. With the species page for TSN x Marmoratus ill use the same format that pc uses and post it here and info can be verified.

[sequoiacat]

Here's what I ve come up with so far:

Cat-eLog Data Sheet
Scientific Name
Pseudoplatystoma sp. hybrid
Common Name(s)
None
Type Locality
No locality.
Synonym(s)

Species Information
Size
900mm (35.43") SL. Find near, nearer or same sized spp.

Identification
Appears to be a hybrid of Psuedoplatystoma and Leiarius sp., possibly L. marmoratus and P. tigrinum
Sexing
Unknown
Habitat Information
pH
5.8 - 7.6
Temperature
21.0 -26.0°C or 69.8 -78.8°F (Show others within this range)

Other Parameters
Requires clean, regularly changed water can become listless and loses appetite if a regular water change regime is not adhered to.
Husbandry Information
Feeding
Carnivore feeding on a very mixed and varied diet including earthworms, whole prawns, mussels, floating sticks/pellets and catfish pellets. In their natural environment they would feed upon other fish.
Furniture
Large, spacious tank with open space for night time cruising. A large shady bogwood root or pipe that the catfish can retreat to during the day is also required. Ensure the heater is in the open and not in a place where the catfish may try and hide.
Compatibility
Ideally suited to life with other large fish. These catfish are predatory and will eat smaller fish if hungry.
Suggested Tankmates
Other large catfish such as Pseudodoras, Oxydoras, Pterodoras and Megalodoras.
Breeding

Further Information
References
Horae Ichthyol.No. 3 - pp8

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good job but I think Birger was suggesting to send this info and good pics to him or PCF.

I can provide pics too, just let me know if you'd like that and when.

As for the slightly-differing hybrid from the MFK (my thread here), you and I can ask 2songbirds, the keeper of that cat, if he'd be interested in donating his pics for a new Cat-eLog datasheet for his cat.

[sequoiacat]

Ya, I figured that he wanted me to send it to him but I figure post it in this forum first to see if anyone wanted to add anything / change anything about it because i would like it to be as accurate as we can get it. Ya any pics would be good i was going to get the pic I have of mine cropped so that it only showed my tsnxleiarius.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good plan. Let's see who chimes in. I'd not hold my breath for long though. There is literally a handful of people here who keep large cats AND are active because it is hard to do so responsibly. But you know that just as well as you know the difference between MFK and PCF, having been participating on both. My "gruesome" prediction, we are (pretty much) on our own in this initiative.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Here's what I ve come up with so far:

Cat-eLog Data Sheet
Scientific Name
Pseudoplatystoma sp. hybrid
Common Name(s)
None
Type Locality
No locality.

*****************SA fish farms ?

Synonym(s)

Species Information
Size
900mm (35.43") SL. Find near, nearer or same sized spp.

*****************36" I think is simpler.

Identification
Appears to be a hybrid of Psuedoplatystoma and Leiarius sp., possibly L. marmoratus

*************************or L. longibarbis

and P. tigrinum
Sexing
Unknown
Habitat Information
pH
5.8 - 7.6

*****************I'd say 6-8

Temperature
21.0 -26.0°C or 69.8 -78.8°F (Show others within this range)

********************mine have been fine at 82 F

Other Parameters
Requires clean,

*****************well aerated,

regularly changed water can become listless and loses appetite if a regular water change regime is not adhered to.
Husbandry Information
Feeding
Carnivore feeding on a very mixed and varied diet including earthworms, whole prawns, mussels, floating sticks/pellets and catfish pellets. In their natural environment they would feed upon other fish.

*****************There is no natural environment for them. They don't occur in the wild. So, you want to say "If they occurred in the wild, they'd likely preyed on other fish, crustaceans, and be scavengers too.

Furniture
Large, spacious tank with open space for night time cruising. A large shady bogwood root or pipe that the catfish can retreat to during the day is also required.

***************************When small. Large fish does not require hiding places.

Ensure the heater is in the open and not in a place where the catfish may try and hide.
Compatibility
Ideally suited to life with other large fish. These catfish are predatory and will eat smaller fish if hungry.

********************************I'd add they have been claimed by some to behave aggressively/territorially towards other catfish, even not conspecifics.

Suggested Tankmates
Other large catfish such as Pseudodoras, Oxydoras, Pterodoras and Megalodoras.

***********************I'd add at least 1/2 the length of their body.

Breeding

Further Information
References
Horae Ichthyol.No. 3 - pp8

[sequoiacat]

Thanks Viktor.

updated version:


Scientific Name
Pseudoplatystoma sp. hybrid
Common Name(s)
None
Type Locality
S.A. Fish Farms
Synonym(s)

Species Information
Size
914.4mm (36") SL. Find near, nearer or same sized spp.

Identification
Appears to be a hybrid of Psuedoplatystoma and Leiarius sp., possibly L. marmoratus and P. tigrinum and/or L. longibarbis and P. tigrinum
Sexing
Unknown
Habitat Information
pH
6 - 8
Temperature
21.0 -26.0°C or 69 - 82°F (Show others within this range)

Other Parameters
Requires clean well aerated, regularly changed water can become listless and loses appetite if a regular water change regime is not adhered to.
Husbandry Information
Feeding
Carnivore feeding on a very mixed and varied diet including earthworms, whole prawns, mussels, fish fillets, floating sticks/pellets and catfish pellets.
Furniture
Large, spacious tank with open space for night time cruising. A large shady bogwood root or pipe that the catfish can retreat to during the day is also required. Ensure the heater is in the open and not in a place where the catfish may try and hide. When larger a hide is not necessary.
Compatibility
Ideally suited to life with other large fish. These catfish are predatory and will eat smaller fish if hungry. Claimed by some to behave aggressively/territorially towards other catfish, even non conspecifics.
Suggested Tankmates
Other large catfish such as Pseudodoras, Oxydoras, Pterodoras and Megalodoras. Other fish over half of its body length.
Breeding
Done in South American aquaculture farms, highly unlikely in aquaria.
Further Information
References
Horae Ichthyol.No. 3 - pp8

[Jools]

Hi All,

Are you sure it's not in the cat-elog already? Can you post pics in this thread?

Thanks,

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Yes, I am, Jools.

see my pics

mid-1st-page - http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... t=+zungaro

4th pic from the top - http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... h&start=60

closer to bottom - http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ius+hybrid


Here are 3 pics from fellow MFK-ers (note the first pic is what I naively propose is possibly a TSNxL.pictus due to a clearly larger dorsal):

[Viktor Jarikov]

My sub-adult 15" and 7" juvis - this is what our fellow importer Snookn21 (John from Ft. Myers FL) brings in (my fish is from him too):

[kruseman]

Hybrids?
Yuck...

[Viktor Jarikov]

Please consider kindly not derailing this thread - you have all the freedom in the world to start your own thread on the topic you are passionate about.

[sequoiacat]

my tsn x leiarius hybrid and a leiarius pictus taken while they were feeding.

[Redtailrob]

Nice work gents

[sequoiacat]

Now how do I get this info posted into the Catelog?

[Jools]

Make sure it is not one of the hybrids already in

Pimelodidae

Send a picture or pictures with an explanation, following the directions in the link below for sending images.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/general/ge ... cle_id=397

Also are we sure it's not

Pimelodus sp_hybrid(1)

?

Jools

[ElTofi]

Hi Viktor & Sequoia,

you're not alone on this thread

But I'm trying so hard no to succomb to the Pimelodidae, that I do my best to keep away from such threads...

[Viktor Jarikov]

Also are we sure it's not

Pimelodus sp_hybrid(1)

?

I am. I've seen dozens of the subject fish (adult and sub-adult) - they all look as in the photos I provided. Body shape is indeed similar but the markings are crude, large, irregular - nothing as regular, dense, and beautiful as on the hybrid you linked. I think the straw-man hypothesis on Pimelodus sp_hybrid(1) is a cross between a TSN and a smallish pim (i.e., Pimelodus), like a blochii. Now, why would anyone cross TSN with a small fish for food purposes, I don't know.

The same is thought here with respect to this guy

Pseudoplatystoma sp_hybrid(1)

, which looks closer to the subject fish but still different to me. An expert eye needs to look at these two hybrids already ion Cat-eLog and the photos we provided and decide, IMHO.

ElTofi, thanks for the sentiment but my point stands

[sequoiacat]

Ya an expert needs to look at them to see exactly what hybrid.
But, in my opinion I think the leiarius x TSN hybrid, is completely different in coloration and has a different body shape than the pimelodus hybrid (Has less of a torpedo shaped body).

[Viktor Jarikov]

I have no clue how this works - I've never worked with any official/mod/etc. on adding a new species to Cat-eLog. Naively, I think that since Marc van Arc and Shane are the mods of this forum, you may contact them directly via pm or email and get things going. I am sure Jools and Birger are interested but likely stretched thin... as usual.

That is, of course, assuming you have already done what Birger had told you to from the start.

Even if an expert finds our hybrids to be one of those two that Jools and I pointed out existing in the Cat-eLog, then that entry needs to be completely reworked and expanded anyway and photos added.

Also, I have never ever heard or read of anyone referring to these fish in any other way but a TSN x Leiarius (TSNx Achara) hybrid. There is no challenge to this ID, no ambiguity from the broad community here, MFK, and Waterwolves. This makes me think that this hybrid has nothing to do with the Pimelodus genus, which is involved in the parenting of the two hybrids Jools and I linked from Cat-eLog.

[Jools]

I have no clue how this works - I've never worked with any official/mod/etc. on adding a new species to Cat-eLog. Naively, I think that since Marc van Arc and Shane are the mods of this forum, you may contact them directly via pm or email and get things going. I am sure Jools and Birger are interested but likely stretched thin... as usual.

Many of the mods can add new species and pictures to the cat-elog an even wider group can edit the species data. But it's really only me or Birger that actually do add species. Marc does a lot of work with synonyms. If you send the pictures to me, along with anything to get added to the species record, I will add them. I need the full name / permission of the photographer. A note, in that email, to the data contained in this thread (or better yet, just copy it in) would help. One thing that makes life hard for me is when something needs done and all the data for it is across several emails and forum posts.

I am reticent to add a new hybrid species entry without pics. I have not taken any pictures from this thread to add the species as it is unclear who they are from and that I have permission to use them as per the usual T&Cs.

Jools

[Viktor Jarikov]

Are you sure it's not in the cat-elog already?

I think this question can be considered answered then.

Thanks Jools. Sequoiacat, you can submit all of my pics with yours too, the ones I provided the links to on the 1st page of this thread (not the pics of others which are labeled as such clearly - we cannot use them). PM me your email address and I will send you my pics - cropped up properly and full size. Then you can submit them to Birger or Jools as they described. Don't forget the datasheet from the first page too, so everything is in one email as Jools asks.

[Jools]

I didn't realise there would be two image contributors. Viktor, why don't you just send me yours and SeqCat can send separately?

Jools

[sequoiacat]

Okay, i should have everything done by friday.

[sequoiacat]

Thanks Jools, Thanks Viktor. Here it is :http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... es_id=4430